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Attack Indicators

Hi, I was wondering whether all mobs will have attack indicators.

So will the players be able to see where an mob is attacking and thus run out of the attack indicator or will the attacks be something similar to Elden Ring where the player will have to memorize or get used to attack animations to dodge attacks?
I remember seeing in the Unreal Engine 5 demonstration the plant mobs had an attack indicator and just wanted to know if all mobs will do this or just some or just with certain attacks?

Thanks

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    KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited March 2022
    Combat is currently in flux, as they are reworking it at the moment. Indicators may be something that you've seen in previous videos that could have changed since. Even this "revamp" will not embody the finalized combat system we have at launch. They have stated that there will be telegraphs or "tells" in combat from mobs, but we don't know much more beyond that they want to include that feature.

    That disclaimer said, I'll refer you to these Wiki links if you wish to look into this more.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Definition:Telegraphs
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat_revamp
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    I hope that there wont be any indicators. But I dont think so. The skill lv of video game players suffers, so in order to sell products developers make sure that players will get a million WARNING WARNING WARNING signs when an attack animation begins.
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    CawwCaww Member
    They really need some system of indication otherwise people will just get clobbered out of the blue and have no chance to counter. Doesn't have to be ground rings or anything so obvious but hopefully they will be the same animations players have to avoid two different sets of visual cues and keep the combat consistent across the PvX spectrum.
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    CROW3CROW3 Member
    Not a big fan of attack indicators. I’d rather players develop some spatial reasoning and situational awareness instead of depending on blinking lights.
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    tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited March 2022
    Personally, I would not want more attack indicators from mobs than you get from players.

    From players you can likely guess their archetype and level by their gear so (assuming adequate game knowledge) you can also guess what attacks and other moves they may have available and react accordingly when you see them move.

    We get similar hints from mobs...are they carrying a bow, are they looking like a wolf or like a hawk?

    If the mobs signal their attacks too much it makes the game more of something I personally don't want it to be, easy.
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I would rather have some (limited) indicators (spell effects?) to make dodge more useful. If there is no chance to use dodge then dodge becomes redundant. However, block is less affected by indicators (spell effects?) because you can hold a block stance through periods of a fight. Of course, in terms of pvp both dodge and block would be unaffected either way i think.

    I'm no fan of floor spells or telegraph's because of the clusterfuck effect. Perhaps I have not seen a good implementation for some years because the natural engine disposition is often particles and rays these days. It will be interesting to see how the concept is handled in UE5. I did enjoy the Cleric and the alpha 1 indicators.

    I think you can remove telegraphs, limit telegraphs, improve telegraphs or become wildstar. I think you can't remove indicators in general but I think the concepts are separate. If there are no indicators there is less control and less skill. You would just get nuked without warning (some raid bosses do have one shots with no indicators elsewhere).

    If you rely on indicators (spell effects?) Without telegraphs, it will hinder the minimum requirement gamers. If you rely on telegraphs without indicators (spell effects?) the game will die rather fast. It is a difficult balance and the best approach would be a grey congregation of both concepts. There is no need for blankets unless commonality dictates the need.
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    SylvanarSylvanar Member
    edited March 2022
    People are so worried that if players experience even a minor inconvenience then they would leave and the game would end up being a flop. What everyone needs to realize is that reasonably hard games makes players come back for more. Facing these challenges and overcoming them give players a sense of accomplishment and this is what makes everyone keep coming back.

    Ofc these mechanisms need to be reasonably difficult and should not 1 or 2 shot players.

    Elden ring is a perfect example of this. Games does not need cater to casual players to keep its player base.
    "Within a couple of weeks, Elden Ring had become the bestselling game in the US and other countries." Quote from google.

    So, attack indicators should be used but sparsely. Like for some one shot mechanic spells in raids/world boss encounters and such but not for regular or even elite mobs.
    "Suffer in silence"
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    It is not so much about worry or concern, it is a case of an amalgamation of past experiences and endeavours.

    There are multiple facets that dictate how a game will perform. I have Elden Ring but it hasn't been opened or played by me.

    As with everything else, we discuss the concepts but we are yet to have a solid implementation to review. Hence why I reference other experiences.

    I'm not sure how many people on the forums play platformers. There are multiple indicators across platformers yet the platformers are often very difficult to master.

    There is no need to pull a Ninja Gaiden No Damage Completion Run. However, there should always be scope to improve. I understand the notion of challenge and the notion of longevity.

    There are two ends to the scale: one is often less reward and more quantity/speed. The other is often more reward and less quantity/speed.

    I don't think challenge hinges on whether we have indicators or not. I think visual feedback is important. Even 'Target's Target' and 'Current Cast' are indicators. Combat trackers are indicators. There are many potential indicators.

    I have often argued for equal disposition with indicators. We should all have the same indicators in my mind, either low level indication or high level indication. Even when a raid boss does a one shot elsewhere the 'current cast' often indicates the hazard.

    In terms of spell effects, If you want more challenge you add instant Cast. If you want more interaction you add timed Cast. If you want more strife you add dots.

    The game concept is already a challenge (no combat tracker allowed?). Some argue combat trackers allow more challenge. It is important to keep all options on the table in terms of challenge.

    You can take an indicated combat system and have a single mode with no indicators. People will love the challenge.

    You can take a plain combat system and have a single mode with indicators. People would see the indicator mode as easy Street.

    Perception is the principle point.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Neurath wrote: »
    I don't think challenge hinges on whether we have indicators or not.

    Indeed it does not.

    It is perfectly possible to have difficult encounters with them, and also to have easy encounters without them. Any encounter about "this mechanic is inherently hard or easy" is a load of bullshit. Every mechanic is literally only ever as easy or as hard as the developers made it each 5ime they used it.

    Honestly though, I don't get this discussion. The blatantly obvious answer here is that all games should have both, because variety.

    If you take a single AoE ability on a mob, as an example, and copy paste it but with indicators, you suddenly have two versions of the same ability, but that players will deal with very differently. Since both will be tuned to be exactly as easy or as hard as the developers want, whats the issue?
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    BirthdayBirthday Member
    edited March 2022
    Telegraphs are okay when done right.

    Souls games did something interesting with telegraphs but imo its bad. The games feel like turn-based games without the pause between turns.

    Suprisingly assasins' creed the first game did it somewhat well. The attacks werent as exaturatedly telegrapged like they are in souls. They were fast enough to be challenging but not impossible and the counter had to be pressed in a very brief window of opportiunity in order to be succesful. So the game challenged you on three levels reaction time, tracking multiple targets' attacks and timing(when to press the counter)

    Something like this can be done in Ashes's i suppose.

    This would add to the meaning of having a variety of weapons. Most MMOs make it feel like you are just swinging a stat stick, no matter if you are using a polearm or a mace.

    Ashes can fix that with a well done telegraph system because then each weapon will have different reach and moveset which needs to be taken into account by players in order to be succesful in
    Combat
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