@crowe it seems, most everyone wants to stay in the familiar yard, and not venture forth to discovery. Which is sad in itself. I want more, new things, new ideas, the node system is such a thing and look how much attention it's garnered. The chains of familiarity and comfort stifle and bind the mind.
This really isn't fair to say about people that have a different preference on such a basic gaming item.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I mean... it's kind of like the compass in New World.
You can want some form of location indicator - doesn't mean it can't be innovative, like a compass instead of a mini-map.
The biggest downside to removing the XP bar is that watching it go up feels good. Seeing the big jump in progress after a difficult quest has always been the most satisfying part for me.
Basically, the core of the RPG genre is that "number goes up" feels good, and the XP bar is one of those numbers.
I agree, I think at times we imagine issues that arent real, or at least aren't that big of a deal. The fact that lvling is so slow and there is so much to do at every level (presumably) that it won't matter as much. PVP scaling will be big deal but the things they have in the plan already should take care of the OP's issue no need to take away XP bar.
If grinding is necessary to reach max level, I would like to be able to turn off the XP bar as a UI option. For me, grinding is less sucky if I don't focus on the snail pace the XP bar moves, but just put on some music and turn off my brain and grind. In the olden days, this would usually require taping over the monitor where the XP bar was, to hide it.
I would not like having it removed by default, or for some reason not be able to see it at all times, if I so wish. It should be a player choice I think.
I definitely agree with OP that Ashes should disincentivize reaching max lvl as a first priority - let them make many augments and many side power progression systems - like putting significant portion of obtainable skill points into the world instead of skill points being obtainable only from leveling up.
To clarify, that is already their plan as far as we are told.
@RevengeRoman cool idea. I don't quite like it as much as a simplified xp bar but I see the appeal. Ultimately it is going to come down to personal preference about how much detailed xp info people want. I'm down with a 5% or even 10% incremental progress bar personally as I don't find crawling progress of <5% motivating or 'feeling good'. That way, people get their sense of progress and it's very much amenable to the problem of 'negative xp' as long as negative xp comes in ~5% increments (or at least the visuals would).
Maybe to ruffle some feathers here: IS has had no problems making decisions that parts of the community don't like (i.e. dps meters or push towards majority non-instanced PvE). Large numbers of people dislike those ideas too (just look around the forums) but if IS thinks it aligns with the goals of AoC then they seem to push for it (and we will test in alphas/betas and give feedback). That being said I still personally would be very happy with just a UI option to remove it/simplify it but just saying, the old guard argument doesn't inherently have merit here. I personally think it does align with AoC's goals and could be something that can be briefly tested in an alpha/beta. I'm willing to try new ideas in an alpha/beta, however outlandish, especially one as easy to implement as this.
@crowe it seems, most everyone wants to stay in the familiar yard, and not venture forth to discovery. Which is sad in itself. I want more, new things, new ideas, the node system is such a thing and look how much attention it's garnered. The chains of familiarity and comfort stifle and bind the mind.
Meh. I think it would be interesting to explore, but I completely understand that it would necessitate an entirely different way to imagine a loaded word like 'progress.' There are some core changes that Intrepid are already taking on (e.g. Nodes, PvX, etc.) It's reasonable that a game wouldn't want to change too many things in one go - folks (even gamers) can only handle so much change.
Ashes will be adding new features.
But, it's an RPG. You should have been expecting Adventurer levels as well as skill levels.
Similar to D&D and Pathfinder. Especially since Ashes is based on Steven's Pathfinder homebrew game.
EQ had a skill leveling system similar to what you describe. That's not new.
Thought EQ had a skill levelling system that just levelling the weapon that you were using, not that play style would contribute to stat building too. I like the idea that you could train in specific directions for the development of your character rather than kill kill kill ding spend points on attributes that will allow you to kill kill kill ding something slightly stronger but at roughly the same rate now that you're slightly stronger.
That said kill kill ding has kept my habit going for a several decades and there's so much in AoC that's new to immerse oneself in that nothing's going to stop me progressing that exp bar, whether I can see it or not !
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2022
In WoW, you don't have to kill anything to reach max Adventurer Level.
You can reach max Adventurer Level through Herbalism and Mining. 0 Kills.
@neuroguy I think I could be okay with a percentage based system... maybe.
I think there are a few key things that we can take from this threads discussion:
1: IS should focus on using only proven technology and core components, there is a point where we don't want to reinvent the wheel unnecessarily.
2: IS should focus on innovation, not reinvention.
3: If Content is King, Customization is Queen.
I honestly think that much of these discussions should wait until we are able to view the first A2 pass on many of these things.
Think of Ashes of Creation like a rocket ship, we all want a safe ascent into a fun world of adventure. The safest ascent I think I can safely say is a controlled and measured one. So let's all do our best to make sure that as Ashes develops, and those of us who are testers give feedback, it is all as productive as possible.
2: IS should focus on innovation, not reinvention.
I mean, showing a percent for experience isn't exactly innovation. A lot of games have done this in the past - usually as an option (show percent, or show numerical value).
This is 20 years old at least - 5 - 6 generations old in terms of MMO's.
IMO with things like experience, there is no real reason, need or indeed room to innovate in a way that wouldn't necessitate an alteration to other aspects of the game. Even the idea of the journal earlier on in this thread is both something that couldn't be the only way for players to gain information on experience, and is also not something that is totally unique (it has been available via combat trackers for a while in a number of games).
All that is needed is player customization so they can have it the way they want to see it.
I was hoping that AoC was going to be something new to MMORPG, doing away with the concept of traditional levelling and thus the XP bar. Something along the lines of skills and attributes increasing depending on what you actually do in the game...Eg you use sword skills to kill mobs you get a Good contribution to next point in sword skills, a mild contribution towards Strength and a mild contribution towards dexterity. You use mace giant axe skills to kill mobs you get a good contribution to next point in sword skills and a good contribution towards the next point in strength. You use Fire spell to kill mobs and you get a good contribution towards the next point in fire spells, a moderate contribution towards Intelligence stat and a mild contribution towards mana recovery/pool. You run for x amount of miles you get moderate increase towards stamina. You run for x amount of miles with a fully laden backpack you get a good contribution towards stamina etc.
You end up running multiple XP bars without gaining XP being the sole focus of gameplay. You still get the endorphin reward from ding a level of skill and you can still give a level based on a stats/skills algorithm and thus restrict or access content that would be rewarding for having "levelled up". This gives the freedom from the XP bar, allows those that need progress markers their goalposts and allows the optimizing that makes party role specialisation a worthwhile and rewarding venture.
Yes it means that you could get a level 50 who only has strength stamina and agriculture entering a dungeon and getting spanked, but then really who spends all that time farming and suddenly thinks they can run into a dungeon without consequences?
only my thoughts for something beyond the linear without losing the grind for those that still want to max quickly
I recall fractured online being like that. But i might remember wrong. Maybe that is more a game for you
@neuroguy I think I could be okay with a percentage based system... maybe.
I think there are a few key things that we can take from this threads discussion:
1: IS should focus on using only proven technology and core components, there is a point where we don't want to reinvent the wheel unnecessarily.
2: IS should focus on innovation, not reinvention.
3: If Content is King, Customization is Queen.
I honestly think that much of these discussions should wait until we are able to view the first A2 pass on many of these things.
Think of Ashes of Creation like a rocket ship, we all want a safe ascent into a fun world of adventure. The safest ascent I think I can safely say is a controlled and measured one. So let's all do our best to make sure that as Ashes develops, and those of us who are testers give feedback, it is all as productive as possible.
I'm not sure those are the key take-aways, at least it's unclear to me how they apply to the topic at hand. I don't think change from some subjective baseline is necessarily innovation or reinvention. When IS decides not to have combat trackers, that's simply a decision not to include some functionality for whatever reason, it's a bit over the top to call it innovation or reinvention. Removing detailed xp information can be done by simplifying the xp bar in a number of ways. It is neither reinventing the wheel nor innovation. It would be a decision to reduce player access to detailed xp information. I really think it's just a simple matter of preference that I think realistically will just become a UI option (which is a perfectly acceptable solution/compromise as far as I'm concerned).
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This really isn't fair to say about people that have a different preference on such a basic gaming item.
You can want some form of location indicator - doesn't mean it can't be innovative, like a compass instead of a mini-map.
I agree, I think at times we imagine issues that arent real, or at least aren't that big of a deal. The fact that lvling is so slow and there is so much to do at every level (presumably) that it won't matter as much. PVP scaling will be big deal but the things they have in the plan already should take care of the OP's issue no need to take away XP bar.
I would not like having it removed by default, or for some reason not be able to see it at all times, if I so wish. It should be a player choice I think.
@RevengeRoman cool idea. I don't quite like it as much as a simplified xp bar but I see the appeal. Ultimately it is going to come down to personal preference about how much detailed xp info people want. I'm down with a 5% or even 10% incremental progress bar personally as I don't find crawling progress of <5% motivating or 'feeling good'. That way, people get their sense of progress and it's very much amenable to the problem of 'negative xp' as long as negative xp comes in ~5% increments (or at least the visuals would).
Maybe to ruffle some feathers here: IS has had no problems making decisions that parts of the community don't like (i.e. dps meters or push towards majority non-instanced PvE). Large numbers of people dislike those ideas too (just look around the forums) but if IS thinks it aligns with the goals of AoC then they seem to push for it (and we will test in alphas/betas and give feedback). That being said I still personally would be very happy with just a UI option to remove it/simplify it but just saying, the old guard argument doesn't inherently have merit here. I personally think it does align with AoC's goals and could be something that can be briefly tested in an alpha/beta. I'm willing to try new ideas in an alpha/beta, however outlandish, especially one as easy to implement as this.
Meh. I think it would be interesting to explore, but I completely understand that it would necessitate an entirely different way to imagine a loaded word like 'progress.' There are some core changes that Intrepid are already taking on (e.g. Nodes, PvX, etc.) It's reasonable that a game wouldn't want to change too many things in one go - folks (even gamers) can only handle so much change.
Thought EQ had a skill levelling system that just levelling the weapon that you were using, not that play style would contribute to stat building too. I like the idea that you could train in specific directions for the development of your character rather than kill kill kill ding spend points on attributes that will allow you to kill kill kill ding something slightly stronger but at roughly the same rate now that you're slightly stronger.
That said kill kill ding has kept my habit going for a several decades and there's so much in AoC that's new to immerse oneself in that nothing's going to stop me progressing that exp bar, whether I can see it or not !
You can reach max Adventurer Level through Herbalism and Mining. 0 Kills.
You can do this in Archeage as well.
It isn't an overly unique thing.
I think there are a few key things that we can take from this threads discussion:
1: IS should focus on using only proven technology and core components, there is a point where we don't want to reinvent the wheel unnecessarily.
2: IS should focus on innovation, not reinvention.
3: If Content is King, Customization is Queen.
I honestly think that much of these discussions should wait until we are able to view the first A2 pass on many of these things.
Think of Ashes of Creation like a rocket ship, we all want a safe ascent into a fun world of adventure. The safest ascent I think I can safely say is a controlled and measured one. So let's all do our best to make sure that as Ashes develops, and those of us who are testers give feedback, it is all as productive as possible.
This is 20 years old at least - 5 - 6 generations old in terms of MMO's.
IMO with things like experience, there is no real reason, need or indeed room to innovate in a way that wouldn't necessitate an alteration to other aspects of the game. Even the idea of the journal earlier on in this thread is both something that couldn't be the only way for players to gain information on experience, and is also not something that is totally unique (it has been available via combat trackers for a while in a number of games).
All that is needed is player customization so they can have it the way they want to see it.
I recall fractured online being like that. But i might remember wrong. Maybe that is more a game for you
I'm not sure those are the key take-aways, at least it's unclear to me how they apply to the topic at hand. I don't think change from some subjective baseline is necessarily innovation or reinvention. When IS decides not to have combat trackers, that's simply a decision not to include some functionality for whatever reason, it's a bit over the top to call it innovation or reinvention. Removing detailed xp information can be done by simplifying the xp bar in a number of ways. It is neither reinventing the wheel nor innovation. It would be a decision to reduce player access to detailed xp information. I really think it's just a simple matter of preference that I think realistically will just become a UI option (which is a perfectly acceptable solution/compromise as far as I'm concerned).