The Trinity or Self Reliance in Dungeons?

Curiosity got the better of me so I needed to ask.
How will this play out in your game ?

Love the visuals and best of luck.

Leighlon

Comments

  • So I hate to be so blatantly self-promotional, but this is something I've thought a lot about before. It is one of the great MMO debates that never seems to get wrapped up, after all.

    Suffice it to say that I've got <a href="http://www.mmogames.com/gamearticles/mmos-move-past-trinity/">some extended thoughts</a> on this you might enjoy, and what it really boils down to is that I don't agree with the premise in your title. It's not the trinity or no roles at all. The trinity isn't the only way to do roles in an MMO, it's just one way that's been very effective over the years.

    Is it the best way we've done it so far? Probably. Is it the best way it could ever be done? I doubt it, due to the problems I mention in the article.

    What exactly we replace the trinity with is largely theoretical (and believe me, you have to replace it with something instead of just getting rid of roles altogether), because the Trinity has dictated the design of enemy intelligence and fight mechanics for a long time. For a game to move past the trinity, we'll have to see them innovate on those game systems first.
  • The guild wars 2 system works pretty well. Allows pvp to be pretty balanced.
  • What are the chances of both. Or scaling for different group content. Hybrid classes are always something i'm excited to see and play. Rarely do games get it right but I think it's something amazing to be able to implement.
  • [quote quote=783]What are the chances of both.[/quote]

    Zero. You either have an aggro system that supports tanking with tanks and healers able to specialize into the mitigation and restoration components of EHP and outperforming every other composition by a long shot, or you don't.

    (That said, you can definitely have tanks and healers as group roles without the trinity - just look at MOBAs)
  • You cant really escape the trinity.
    You need to damage. You need to regenerate. You need to be able to delay both as part of game play.
    So the roles are kind of surrogate base functions of any combat game.
    Trinity is surrogate base combat.

    Granted the regeneration can be done equally well by yourself rather than by a 3rd party.
    Granted delaying or mitigating damage(degen) or healing(regen) also can be done by yourself rather than a third party.
    So whats the point ? Specialisation.
    It enables players to be unique and reflect a specific type of preferred playstyle.
    Literally enabling 'specialised' roleplay.

    As Isarii says though....there are many other aspects to combat that can be offloaded to surrogates.
    From stealth to DoTs, from teleportation to invisibility.
    It really depends how the games combat is structured.
    Instant damage, ascending damage, channeled damaged, descending damage, delayed damage.
    All of which may be manual or autonomous and cyclic, single target or aoe.
    All of which can be mirrored by regeneration and mitigation.
    Then there is buff, debuff, player and movement control rather than direct combat...all of which should offer counter play.

    Truth is there are so many possibilities that simply cant be embodied by just 3 roles.
    You often see arguments about who should take on the extras when trinity is in place.
    Which is why IMHO such things should be what defines unique build with unique combinations.
    Trinity is dated concept that makes boss mechanics easier to define.
    The game creator could just as easily collect group class make up and adapt the boss to suit in its own unique way.
  • I miss the oldschool punishments and harsh environment ,like in wizardry gold..Where status effects weren't always instantly removable.
    If you got poisoned in the dungeon you couldn't camp or your health started to degenerate instead of regenerate and there were few ways to heal it
    like only a certain fountain and potion (to find the ingredients for that potion took real effort)

    Oh and madness status where the player had to lay down aoe and skills very carefully upon the foe,as madness caused friendly fire.
    Friendly fire can make it so that max damage can actually become a disadvantage in a group that lacks tacts and skill.
    I think bringing back this harder,more punishing environment would make it so that players tread carefully.
    It would also reduce the ability of groups to rush through dungeons ,because they would really have to adjust if one of the members gets afflicted.
    (though there should be a severe punishment if it was possible for a group to kick players with afflictions,like if they neglect a sick ally their rewards would turn to ashes and its reduced
    by 80 procent for completing the dungeon and they can only get standard stuff ,so no precious loots)

    Somehow I think bringing back these hard punishments would severily alter the group dynamic in dungeons for the better.
  • I think of all the trinity the only one that is generally accepted as required is healer, - in any guise - Im not a fan of tanks have 'aggro' ability, because it just plays into the dumb npc coding(or lack of), if mobs had more random targeting this would force groups to think the way they are set up.
    Consider in middle of boss fight, you would expect boss to realise that hitting the guy with the strongest /baddest armor to be a bad point, surely he would then weigh up the options about, Do i go after the damage dealers or how about the healers

    Then giving the other classes escapability comes into play, so should the healer start getting attacked he should have a 'ward off spell' that disorientates the boss to a point that he can no longer the spell caster (like a blind spell that only blinds against caster), DPS clases would make use of their mobility, which after X amount of time the boss would then have to reconsider his options because running around trying to catch a more nimble player is wasting his energy / time, which then leads back to the heavy armor wearer, that cannot move as fast,

    Just because a player wears heavy armor doesn't mean he is a 'tank' you can have DPS wearing heavy armor, think along archeage style of armor, you can have a light armor tank depending on his build (battle mage)

    But all this comes down to limited AI on the boss part, but also puts stop to the dps classes almost standing there just spamming spell buttons, they have to consider surroundings/get out / escape options, keep on move to keep boss away.

    You could then end up with groups made up of purely dps because they could just keep away from boss but then some bosses wouldd have skills like trap etc so you cannot always run away sometimes you have to have other options etc., you could even consider a full party of healers, using their 'blind' skills to keep the boss at bay, but you wouldn't be able to do a full tank group because they off all classes need healers in the group to keep them alive regardless of their 'tank'
    This would remove 2 problems, 1 lack of tanks in game, 2 lack of imagination on group composition.
  • Other oldschool abilities rarely seen in games lately are things like "identify monster"
    "identify item" "body building" ,....
    Maybe these could add tactics to the idea that a boss would weigh up the options for who to go after.
    Lets say there is a giant wormboss in a sandpit room with quicksand.
    And in that same room is a mirror that could blind/burn it.
    Since the place would be collapsing,time is of the essence.
    So the boss would see the player with the skill to identify the mirror and its purpose as the biggest potential threat.
    (If the mirror is not identified it cant be used by the group)
    Such situational reasons for a boss to go after another player at crucial moments may at least make it look as if bosses are somewhat smarter?
    As they take more into "consideration" at any given crucial moment,and it seems like they are more aware of their surroundings.

    I dont think self sufficiency is always good ,the more the players need each other (and different kinds of folk),the better.
  • While I'm not opposed to a system similar to the trinity, the reason it has become a backbone for so many MMO's is because IT WORKS. Not only does it allow players to play the style of character they like, it also allows Devs to design much more complicated dungeons, raids, bosses, etc. because it allows for them to create mechanics that can severely hinder players without needing to worry about that fact that all they have to heal with is pots (for example). Another result of the trinity is that it promotes player interaction and cooperation....kinda what MMOs are about imo.

    Look at a game like BDO...no trinity. I play it currently and except in some limited pvp applications it is every man for himself because there is next to no game mechanics that promote or require player cooperation. For a MMO it can pretty regularly feel like a single player game.
  • Personally I like to see games that offer 3x hyrbid or tank/dd/heal.
    ie. You can team up as individuals or specialists.
    How you prefer to team up and play is your choice.
    The 3 archetype focus has led to the death of hybrids IMHO and killed diversity.
    You must use these skills, in this way, at this time.....
    ...a predictable, pre-scripted, sequence of events that leads to monotony and eventual boredom.

    If balance is done properly 3x hybrid should pack the same damage as 1x DD, the same healing as 1x specialist healer, the same mitigation as 1x specialist tank.
    Its all about distribution of power at the end of the day.
    And choice is always a good thing.

    The archetypes are just specialised skill sets anyway.
    A Generic 'Class' if you like, amounting to a sum total of 3 slighly skinned classes to play.
    Yay for variety.

    Would it not be better to build uniquely and find others that compliment that unique build ?
    Finding buddies who built how they really want, and kick arse none the less ?
    What if there was a pool of 100 skills and they were shared among your team in any way you saw fit and agreed to ?
    All that matters is that those 100 skills are available...not who has them.
  • Guess not a lot of you are support mains :v

    Im a support main (in every game i play) and i have to say it, i love the trinity it makes my char feel worth it, i dont like doing 54176841687 dsp and tanking is not my thing, but having the power over who live and who die is why i play support roles


    I know that not everyone have a support friend or a tank one, but the trinity force players to be social and make friends even pay for a good support or tank (helping the economy of the "support never get loot" chars) i would love to have a nice trinity sistem where i can play the buff/debuff-healer and be appreciated in party/raids
  • [quote quote=2377]Guess not a lot of you are support mains :v

    Im a support main (in every game i play) and i have to say it, i love the trinity it makes my char feel worth it, i dont like doing 54176841687 dsp and tanking is not my thing, but having the power over who live and who die is why i play support roles

    I know that not everyone have a support friend or a tank one, but the trinity force players to be social and make friends even pay for a good support or tank (helping the economy of the “support never get loot” chars) i would love to have a nice trinity sistem where i can play the buff/debuff-healer and be appreciated in party/raids

    [/quote]

    Oh no I am all for mutual support. Just not in the regimented, extremely limited scope of 3 generic build styles.
    Nor being forced to only be able to play one of those 3 build styles to the detriment of every conceivable hybrid.
    Its simply a noose around the neck of variety, player options and dungeon design.
  • I prefer the trinity system over the GW2 free for all system, it probably has to do with me playing healers in most games. Also I'm not too sure about GW2's current situation, but can't druids and Elementalist heal? Maybe for PvP the free for all system works but I am not too sure for PvE

    One thing I loved about FFXI was that aggro was an issue, I saw DPS and Healers pull aggro off mobs a lot (not sure about end game). This brought in other mechanics that allowed the rogue/thief to help the tank get aggro. Also there were times that I would tank on my DPS character while we were looking for a tank. It was much harder on the group and especially the healer but it was still doable and fun.

    I would like to see tanks, dps, healers and buffers and debuffers. I also would like to see dungeons cleared by groups that don't have a tank by using other group composition like two healers, hybrid classes or using lots of CC.

    Maybe this game can help people get used to non-cookie cutter group composition and builds.
  • I'd appreciate a Trinity, since the class system will support Mages or something that can augment their skills with the Healer class. Will make it more interesting.
  • Same here, all for holy trinity!

    <strong>To PvP</strong>

    I believe it all depends on how you play it out. The classes - in the beginning - won't be balanced at all. It will mostly depend on 'real life' scenarios and how the community reacts to playstyles / the environment yada yada.

    My suggestion(s):

    - Offer the normal textbook PvP. 1vs1 / 2vs2 / 3vs3 (even though I hate this, but whatevs)<strong> [Gear shouldn't play a role here.]</strong>
    - Something like defend your point / objective / flag - Healers and such will work just fine in these environments, tactics and who to kill first will have a huge impact on failure or success. <strong>[Gear shouldn't matter in these encounters!!]</strong>
    -Offer something like Golem fights.
    <em>E.g. There are 10 players on each side. You will be randomly pared (depending on your level, now GEAR MATTERS, overall win/loss rate? etc.)
    The entire match will take 5-7 minutes. The overall goal should be to kill the opposing Golem or to generate as much Damage / Heal as possible.
    So, healers could either try to outperfom damage dealt on their Golem or they could go full zerk helping their team mates in defeating the opposing Golem, leaving their own Golem unprotected, by healing their teammates.

    After death you have to wait maybe 30 sec before respawning. I belive that this little extra would also give Healers a time to really shine, apart from "Keep your objective safe". A master of his / her craft can not only change the tides of battle but she / he might as well let his / her teammates win the war!


    ---

    Back to OP.

    I'd say it very much depends, how difficult will dungeons be? Does a healer also have offensive abilities or is he / she more on the deffensive side or something else, entirely?
    The Holy Trinity is something great, but it has to be done right. As of now, it's difficult to say anything. We don't know about content, about what to expect.

    Attention, my opinion:
    With what I believe this game could be, could bring forth, all Holy Trinity.

    ~ Zention
  • I'm a fan of the "trinity" because it promotes interdependency between players which in turn fosters social play. And honestly, it offers more varied play styles... taking and healing aren't primarily about killing stuff!
  • Trinity for the win! I enjoy healing and supporting players, it's much more fun to be able to assist and coordinate with others. This is what makes an MMO great in my opinion, hence the term "MMORPG." I am open to hybrids as well being able to sustain oneself for soloing, but then there would be some difficulty put in place where it would be harder to do so in environments and dungeons where the trinity is essential to make it easier for players to succeed.
  • As a support main, or tank-utility in most games being very objective focused... I'd be pretty let down if I couldn't be a heavy guard-muscle style character such as a knight or something similar to stop rogue-like bandits outright if they don't perform the perfect sneak attack plan. This is type of stuff I imagine for the game. I love durability, blocking and such to allow my more glass style classes to accomplish their tasks.

    GW2 is probably hands down my favorite combat of any game currently. ESO a close second. I like the ability to swing and usually land a hit as long as my weapon's hitbox hits the enemy rather than being able to cast an ability and it hit regardless of range. It drives me insane to play games where as a melee warrior if a mage or archive activated an ability on me that it could auto-hone in even if I dodge or duck behind terrain. Wildstar had pretty good combat as well for his as most everything was skillshot based.

    Even as spam-fest as GW2 is you can tank up, I'm usually next to unkillable Warrior if I'm not CC'd into the ground. I alone can defend a choke point simply because they can barely kill me before my burst allies arrive to assist while I heal.

    Though I do also love healing. Healing should not be easy mode to make more people want to play it. On the contrary. the way this game is sounding I -want- healing to be dangerous. I want good healers to be coveted, very little defense of their own, and hopefully not have enough healing to outright survive vs a player on their own. There should be danger for the battle medic, and taking me down should be a strategic must, and it should rely on teamwork for my allies to defend me for my valuable resource of health-giving.

    If anyone here hasn't checked out the mechanics of GW2 raiding, you should. I feel they've done raiding -really- well. Tanking is now based on a stat which basically outright guarantees you are the primary target as long as you're the only player with that highest stat (I believe it was a damage reduction stat), while many classes got kits and ranger even getting a full healing sub-class basically since there is weapon swapping healing isn't as mandatory as other games. The 'Healing' setups can be very rough as the game is -really- dodge or die heavy. Lastly utility classes: Mostly notably the Mesmer's Chronomancer sub-spec which gives ability cooldown speed decrease for everyone in the area. I love utility classes like bards which give major benefits while still dealing damage.

    TL;DR My hope is GW2s similar to it's current state: Healing classes exist and a variant of tanking exists and while possibly not mandatory are very risk-reward to have.
  • I say you need Trinity for 2 reasons. First its easier to have Roles and say this player is good at this Role but if lets say a Rogue gets behind a Mage, the Mage is dead period. You can have Tanks, Healers, DPS and CC and all be viable in all combat. Reason 2 if you dont have trinity you end up with a Zerg game like GW2. The game becomes a free for all melee and people sick and tired of a Zerg game. With the Trinity system you use tactics to over come your opposition. Even in SWG you had a soft trinity because you had CC stun like classes, you had classes that could take a lot of damage, you also had healers and you had classes like Bounty Hunter which could put out a lot of damage. In SWG as well you had specialty groups, mine was a commando team that took out AT-STs and player built base defenses.

    So you dont need a hard Trinity you can use a soft SWG like trinity where server classes have specialties. Example is a life mage that can grow roots all over the place to hold the opposition in place and use heal over time. Then you can have Rangers who can 2 or 3 shot low armored classes.
  • I never had a problem with the trinity, It's solid. The only downside i thought I see is that it is too focused. The clear cut it makes between dps/tank/heal was what always remained a bit of a thorn.
    A rogue should be able to stop his dps and aggro a boss to give your tank a short breather from a heavy attack. Better said a tank should need his dps for him to recover for short intervalls.
    A healer shouldn't be the reason everyone is still alive from the "to be expected/continued" dmg. He could be a counterweight for heavy dmg, but imo he should be a dmg dealer with high infight buff capabilities. (I love traditionala healers I mostly play them myself)
    Tanks, the static sponge.. as it was said in posts before me, it has a dumb feel to it that the boss decided to fight this one particular person. I think it's okay for some time, but a tanks capabilities should lie in the ability to intercept the boss from running too much after other players.
    I want to keep it short, in the end i fully support the holy trinity for one simple reason. They cater to different playstyles. A static tank is a more laid back role for people that are not too good with acting fast and a lot or want to deal with to much stressreaction. It gives them a valid and important role throughout the entire game without feeling out of place.
    I rather see that, than the trainwreck that GW2 managed, never achieving more than to balance 3 classes (with one specific weaponcombination, "variation" mhmm) as a baseline with the usual 3 being always over them in every aspect and the rest underperforming.
    Done right I'm sure there could be different approaches, but I do like the trinity because it balances more than just the ingame side of things.
  • I would like to see more encounter types (i.e. puzzles, swarms) and boss encounters less reliant on the traditional trinity. Trinity should be an option but it would be nice to have other ways of doing things.
  • Why I dont get people who want to be Self Reliance in a Dungeon in an MMORPG? If you want to play Solo an MMORPG should never be the game you go to. This is exactly Why all MMORPGs suck right now and their communities are full of people who bitch that shit is not handed to them.

    No there needs to be some Trinity to the Dungeons. Tank, Healer, DPS and Support.

    O yea and you GW2 fans, Sorry the content is a fucking Zerg Fest. Sorry If I want a Zerg Fest I will go play GW2 or Diablo 3.
  • [quote quote=3973]Why I dont get people who want to be Self Reliance in a Dungeon in an MMORPG? If you want to play Solo an MMORPG should never be the game you go to.
    [/quote]

    That's the problem, you can never (truly) please everyone! Personally speaking, I am not against players being able to solo content <strong>at a given time</strong>!
    I'd even go so far as saying that content eventually being solo-able is inevitable. <strong>Practice makes Perfect!</strong>
    In the beginning you won't know how to operate your class, how the mechanics work, how the environment works, what skills you need to use and which skills are more or less useful.
    But after learning all that, you become better at your class and things will become easier. More so when going the usual 'gear will outperform skill' route.
    ---
    <em>!My speculation!</em>
    Mobs will eventually become easier to deal with. Let's say you've been training/leveling in <strong>Region A</strong> [1-10] now you move to <strong>Region B</strong>[8-15]. You are now level 15 and kill the Bee Queen [Level 5] again. She should now pose a much lower threat, does she not?
    ---
    [quote quote=3973]This is exactly Why all MMORPGs suck right now and their communities are full of people who bitch that shit is not handed to them.
    [/quote]

    Well, I'd say that there are plenty of reasons why games don't live up to our expectations. For the community, well, everyone wants to shine/outperform others. That's human nature, more so when playing competitive games! ;)

    Addendum: For me doing content/dungeons/bosses solo is more for self-proof. I'm more or less honing my own skills that way! And yeah, sometimes, you're right here, doing something challenging since the usual way is too easy.

    ~ Zention
  • I would prefer the trinity personally. When you have a self reliance type of game I feel like everyone has to be a jack of all trades. I enjoyed Guild Wars 2 but I hated not being able to have dedicated healers, tanks etc. I always felt like the healing I could do was not enough to keep me and my group alive so what was the point of having it in the first place.

    I can understanding having some heals or a way of healing (bandages/potions etc) for when you're out soloing but in group content I don't think that should be a viable way to completing things. It should come down to tanks,healers, and dps otherwise the classes kind of mesh together imo.
  • Trinity is nice but having utility roles in there for buffs plus damage or heals or having someone that can clutch tank when needed to give variety is never a bad thing in but mainly as a player that plays mmos for raids eventually as content gets on farm you push down the amount of healers for more dps to go faster and ignore more mechanics so having a higher concentration of utility roles available might be a better option than having a player being pushed from thier main role of healer or tank as content becomes easier would be refreshing though might be allot harder to balance out in PvP
  • As a healer I prefer the trinity, but more in the way TERA/Aion/ESO have done it. TERA and ESO have healers that also buff, debuff, cc, and replenish team resources (mana, stamina, etc.) Aion additionally has full support classes. I love playing full support non-healer classes, but when I play healer I want it to be a well rounded role. Only healing gets boring and feels very one note. A healer that can support their team in a variety of ways is much more interesting.
  • [quote quote=4288][...]
    A healer that can support their team in a variety of ways is much more interesting.

    [/quote]

    This, I absolutely agree on! I am also for a healing class that can do more things than pressing one simple key! Coordination and tactics should play a role when playing/mastering the healing class!


    ~ Zention
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