DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
Boring is subjective.
Again- Keep in mind that originally Steven was planning for Ashes to launch within 2 years - 3 years tops.
Ashes is not intending to be noteworthy for having a bunch of ground-breaking non-Human races.
It is what it is.
We've known this since the kickstarter.
Ok
And I said I'm not using that definition of vanilla
Quite blatantly
Go to urban dictionary and look up vanilla
Unexciting, normal, conventional, boring.
Vanilla, a bit like this definition.
That was the way I was using the word
Their race choices are vanilla for a fantasy setting.
Keep in mind when this thread started I said I think ashes will be fine due to the variety of appearances within each race. I can still say they went with boring choices... Or rather they went with safe choices.
And then they will have the tulnar to hopefully scratch the itch for everyone else that doesn't want the same old races.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
And... again... you should expect a vanilla (pre-expansion launch) game to have vanilla (conventional) races.
Steven was not trying to be innovative with races. He's being innovative with the Nodes mechanic and is focusing on large group PvP combat.
He is recreating his homebrew Pathfinder game - which most likely had just the 7 core Pathfinder player races.
And, he included the Tulnar as a stretch goal.
Since he was planning to launch within 2-3 years, he chose where he wanted to be innovative and where he wanted to be conventional.
That being said...now that it's clear it will take at least double the expected time to release, he has significantly tweaked at least two of the races, Vek and Py'Rai, to be less conventional Orcs and Elves.
And... again... you should expect a vanilla (pre-expansion launch) game to have vanilla (conventional) races.
Steven was not trying to be innovative with races. He's being innovative with the Nodes mechanic and is focusing on large group PvP combat.
He is recreating his homebrew Pathfinder game - which most likely had just the 7 core Pathfinder player races.
And, he included the Tulnar as a stretch goal.
Since he was planning to launch within 2-3 years, he chose where he wanted to be innovative and where he wanted to be conventional.
That being said...now that it's clear it will take at least double the expected time to release, he has significantly tweaked at least two of the races, Vek and Py'Rai, to be less conventional Orcs and Elves.
Can't please all of the people all of the time.
Boring is subjective.
So you agree with me
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Not add stuff like "boring is subjective" and try to over dissect what people are saying... You always seem to intentionally go out of your way to come off as argumentative.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
I did say that!
"Um. Yeah.
We should expect vanilla games to have vanilla races."
You are the one who wanted to argue about nothing.
You are the one trying to overdissect.
You added "boring" because YOU wanted to argue.
Ok
And I said I'm not using that definition of vanilla
Quite blatantly
Go to urban dictionary and look up vanilla
Unexciting, normal, conventional, boring.
Vanilla, a bit like this definition.
That was the way I was using the word
Their race choices are vanilla for a fantasy setting.
Keep in mind when this thread started I said I think ashes will be fine due to the variety of appearances within each race. I can still say they went with boring choices... Or rather they went with safe choices.
And then they will have the tulnar to hopefully scratch the itch for everyone else that doesn't want the same old races.
So, this is an interesting use for the word "vanilla".
From a cooking perspective, vanilla is actually an incredibly important and versatile flavor. To consider vanilla boring is to outright state that you have no appreciation of subtilty, nuance or or indeed quality.
Sure, some people may use the word to denote things they consider boring, but to equate vanilla to being boring is to state that you don't understand vanilla - and thus leads me to assume the person probably doesn't also understand the subject they are labeling as boring. People that use this meaning for the word vanilla are likely to have never to have actually tasted real vanilla in their life, but rather only ever had a cheap imitation of the flavor (synthetic vanillin).
As to vanilla as a flavor - without it, chocolate chip cookies are bland. In fact, most of the best dark chocolates available use vanilla to bring out even more chocolate flavor. It is used to add specific notes to most top end desserts - it is rare to see a high end restaurant in Europe or NA where vanilla isn't used in at least half of the desserts on the menu (in many cases, it is used in literally all of them in some form).
Then you have the different types of vanilla. While many people would have only ever have tried artificial vanilla (an admittedly dull, flat flavor on it's own), even the lowest, most common form of vanilla (Madagascar or Bourbon vanilla) has an amazing depth and nuance to it. The thing with vanilla though, is there is also a massive gap between that Madagascar vanilla and the king of all vanilla - Tahitian vanilla (try to get some that is actually from Tahiti, rather than Papua New Guinea or Indonesia). Where Madagascar vanilla is rich in flavor with little subtilty (though still far more than imitation), Tahitian vanilla is floral, often with undertones of cherry and/or chocolate. However, there is only around 30 tones of vanilla produced in Tahiti a year and is often used in high end fragrances and cosmetics, so it is hard to find for use in food.
Then you have vanillas applications outside of sweet treats. You have not lived until you have tried a savory vanilla risotto with seared rabbit loin paired with a dry Riesling.
No one that has compared Madagascar and Tahitian vanilla to each other would ever be able to label vanilla as being boring. Again, it is a comment about vanilla that is restricted to those that have never actually tried real vanilla.
Based on the above, I would question whether the word "vanilla" should be used to denote something boring. Sure, someone at some point made that connection, it isn't a framing device of your own making. However, the person that made that connection very clearly didn't have an understanding of vanilla - so why would we use that framing device at all? It is better suited as a means of pointing out that you don't understand the subject matter enough to understand why it isn't boring.
If Ashes races were as "boring" as vanilla actually is (or isn't, as it were), then we are all in for a treat when the game does come out. However, I don't see the races as being quite that exciting, honestly.
Ok
And I said I'm not using that definition of vanilla
Quite blatantly
Go to urban dictionary and look up vanilla
Unexciting, normal, conventional, boring.
Vanilla, a bit like this definition.
That was the way I was using the word
Their race choices are vanilla for a fantasy setting.
Keep in mind when this thread started I said I think ashes will be fine due to the variety of appearances within each race. I can still say they went with boring choices... Or rather they went with safe choices.
And then they will have the tulnar to hopefully scratch the itch for everyone else that doesn't want the same old races.
So, this is an interesting use for the word "vanilla".
From a cooking perspective, vanilla is actually an incredibly important and versatile flavor. To consider vanilla boring is to outright state that you have no appreciation of subtilty, nuance or or indeed quality.
Sure, some people may use the word to denote things they consider boring, but to equate vanilla to being boring is to state that you don't understand vanilla - and thus leads me to assume the person probably doesn't also understand the subject they are labeling as boring. People that use this meaning for the word vanilla are likely to have never to have actually tasted real vanilla in their life, but rather only ever had a cheap imitation of the flavor (synthetic vanillin).
As to vanilla as a flavor - without it, chocolate chip cookies are bland. In fact, most of the best dark chocolates available use vanilla to bring out even more chocolate flavor. It is used to add specific notes to most top end desserts - it is rare to see a high end restaurant in Europe or NA where vanilla isn't used in at least half of the desserts on the menu (in many cases, it is used in literally all of them in some form).
Then you have the different types of vanilla. While many people would have only ever have tried artificial vanilla (an admittedly dull, flat flavor on it's own), even the lowest, most common form of vanilla (Madagascar or Bourbon vanilla) has an amazing depth and nuance to it. The thing with vanilla though, is there is also a massive gap between that Madagascar vanilla and the king of all vanilla - Tahitian vanilla (try to get some that is actually from Tahiti, rather than Papua New Guinea or Indonesia). Where Madagascar vanilla is rich in flavor with little subtilty (though still far more than imitation), Tahitian vanilla is floral, often with undertones of cherry and/or chocolate. However, there is only around 30 tones of vanilla produced in Tahiti a year and is often used in high end fragrances and cosmetics, so it is hard to find for use in food.
Then you have vanillas applications outside of sweet treats. You have not lived until you have tried a savory vanilla risotto with seared rabbit loin paired with a dry Riesling.
No one that has compared Madagascar and Tahitian vanilla to each other would ever be able to label vanilla as being boring. Again, it is a comment about vanilla that is restricted to those that have never actually tried real vanilla.
Based on the above, I would question whether the word "vanilla" should be used to denote something boring. Sure, someone at some point made that connection, it isn't a framing device of your own making. However, the person that made that connection very clearly didn't have an understanding of vanilla - so why would we use that framing device at all? It is better suited as a means of pointing out that you don't understand the subject matter enough to understand why it isn't boring.
If Ashes races were as "boring" as vanilla actually is (or isn't, as it were), then we are all in for a treat when the game does come out. However, I don't see the races as being quite that exciting, honestly.
Ok... Since I can't gently avoid saying it anymore...
It's what people say when they are referring to someone who has a boring sex life.
I didn't come up with the term @Noaani. I just used it in a sentence. I don't think the history of flavor or etymology of a vanilla bean was taken into account when it started being used this way. However, I could say that by today's standards for us lowly common folk (... You have not lived until you have tried a savory vanilla risotto with seared rabbit loin paired with a dry Riesling... 😆😆😆). Vanilla is the base choice for most things. Vanilla ice cream is the equivalent to plain when compared to Rocky road. Vanilla yogurt is the basic version when compared to the whole wall of flavor selections.
I did amend my phrase from "boring" to "safe choices", since that is probably more accurate. By no means do I expect them to make all new fantasy races, nor would I want that. I was just saying for a game that is pushing the envelope for so many aspects, they did go with the basics for a race selection.
Vanilla ice cream is the equivalent to plain when compared to Rocky road.
The thing with this is - that vanilla ice cream probably doesn't even have any vanilla in it.
Even if we ignore that, can you guess what those marshmallows in that rocky road are flavored with?
Edit; as to your yoghurt flavor comments - I would argue that plain unsweetened yoghurt is the base flavor - as that is literally just what yoghurt tastes like. Vanilla is an added flavor to the base yoghurt, along with sugar.
You can’t push the envelope in every aspect of a game, otherwise it just becomes a mess. Gotta pick and prioritize your changes.
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AmistMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't think AoC is missing races for launch but I would love to see more be added in DLC's in the future. I've always wanted to play a demonic/angelic race and although I am aware of the cosmetic skins added during the KS (which I plan to upgrade to have in the future), I think such a theme would fit very well into content in the sky. Perhaps an addition of floating islands or the sorts with these demons and angels being predominant in the expansion
I feel the same way about most of the races being humans with only slight diffrences. Tulnar being the least human looking of the lot. I feel being a human in real life to be boring, but I can understand that people like to put themselves in their games to relate to their characters more. It also helps the dev teams character creator to lesson the work needed.
But if they have the last race have crazy animal like body pieces and borrow them from animals they already have and are working on in game that could be the most amazing primordial soup race in existence.
For example: The flaming fox mount already exist ingame and depending on how indepth they want to make animal husbandry the colors/skin combos will already be half fleshed out. If they borrowed the head and tail(s) you have 1 new race. But then lets say you like deer? Or those cats with floppy ears? The animal combos could be multiple races under 1 banner race name.
If they borrow from their own assets they can make this last race the 'animal' race and add more customizations as the game ages. Adjust the skeletons to have a standing crouch look. Put holes in the pants of the armor sets for tails and holes for horns in helmets for the mele classes and adjust the helmets for long snouts.
If they do this it would cover and bring variety to the people who dont much care for humans and technically be the most creative race customizer ive ever seen. Depending on how far they would like to go with it they wouldn't have to add a new race ever again XD they would just keep ripping new assets overtime and adding them as cool updates next to hairstyles and maybe pr'rai tree horn options.
And tattoos...lots of tattoos. Please add armors that show skin so I can see the tattoos. Nothing sucks more then making tattoos matter and having most armor sets cover them up.
Signed a GW2 player who plays Charr and Sylvari(who glow in the dark) and Khajit/Argonians in ESO. I always make at least 1 human to look like me cuz of course self insert.
I just want them to go crazy and blow everyones minds. I don't even care if they make it into launch or not. I'm already planning on being a Py'Rai Cleric/Bard on launch.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yeah... we'll have to see how many non-Human appearances we can create with the Tulnar.
no I think the amount of races expected for for launch is good and the tulnar supposedly have some aspects of minor races as well so I think its fine I'm personally going to play the Niküa bc I like there aesthetic the most but if the tulnar can have fish like aspects I would think about creating that race aswell
Human - Elf - Orc - Dwarf - Beast/Reptile humanoids
And there are 2 splits for the first 4.
Who is greedy enough for more? LotR's is the most loved fantasy in the world with roughly the same amount and Lineage 2 is renowed for its unique take on LotR's races + Dark elf. No need to fix what is loved and isn't broken.
You could make a small case for sea folk and fairies/plant/earth based race but unless they have substainally strong racial passives/abilities on land or sea they would look stupid and feel as though they were just added for cosmetic purposes.
When it comes to serious fantasy, you shouldn't overstretch and polish the wonderful meta races, otherwise they won't feel as special.
Unless it's a less serious/cartoon mmo like WoW, don't add in crap like Panda's and Undead...
Nine seems fine to me. The overwhelming amount of people will play humans so a race with all it's dev time needed for five people that want to play it is a waste.
I think the Tulnar will be able to fill up any other type of race a player could want but this will happen only as far as the customize options allow it
Comments
Again- Keep in mind that originally Steven was planning for Ashes to launch within 2 years - 3 years tops.
Ashes is not intending to be noteworthy for having a bunch of ground-breaking non-Human races.
It is what it is.
We've known this since the kickstarter.
And I said I'm not using that definition of vanilla
Quite blatantly
Go to urban dictionary and look up vanilla
Unexciting, normal, conventional, boring.
Vanilla, a bit like this definition.
That was the way I was using the word
Their race choices are vanilla for a fantasy setting.
Keep in mind when this thread started I said I think ashes will be fine due to the variety of appearances within each race. I can still say they went with boring choices... Or rather they went with safe choices.
And then they will have the tulnar to hopefully scratch the itch for everyone else that doesn't want the same old races.
Steven was not trying to be innovative with races. He's being innovative with the Nodes mechanic and is focusing on large group PvP combat.
He is recreating his homebrew Pathfinder game - which most likely had just the 7 core Pathfinder player races.
And, he included the Tulnar as a stretch goal.
Since he was planning to launch within 2-3 years, he chose where he wanted to be innovative and where he wanted to be conventional.
That being said...now that it's clear it will take at least double the expected time to release, he has significantly tweaked at least two of the races, Vek and Py'Rai, to be less conventional Orcs and Elves.
Can't please all of the people all of the time.
Boring is subjective.
So you agree with me
Just say that then... And leave it..
Not add stuff like "boring is subjective" and try to over dissect what people are saying... You always seem to intentionally go out of your way to come off as argumentative.
"Um. Yeah.
We should expect vanilla games to have vanilla races."
You are the one who wanted to argue about nothing.
You are the one trying to overdissect.
You added "boring" because YOU wanted to argue.
So, this is an interesting use for the word "vanilla".
From a cooking perspective, vanilla is actually an incredibly important and versatile flavor. To consider vanilla boring is to outright state that you have no appreciation of subtilty, nuance or or indeed quality.
Sure, some people may use the word to denote things they consider boring, but to equate vanilla to being boring is to state that you don't understand vanilla - and thus leads me to assume the person probably doesn't also understand the subject they are labeling as boring. People that use this meaning for the word vanilla are likely to have never to have actually tasted real vanilla in their life, but rather only ever had a cheap imitation of the flavor (synthetic vanillin).
As to vanilla as a flavor - without it, chocolate chip cookies are bland. In fact, most of the best dark chocolates available use vanilla to bring out even more chocolate flavor. It is used to add specific notes to most top end desserts - it is rare to see a high end restaurant in Europe or NA where vanilla isn't used in at least half of the desserts on the menu (in many cases, it is used in literally all of them in some form).
Then you have the different types of vanilla. While many people would have only ever have tried artificial vanilla (an admittedly dull, flat flavor on it's own), even the lowest, most common form of vanilla (Madagascar or Bourbon vanilla) has an amazing depth and nuance to it. The thing with vanilla though, is there is also a massive gap between that Madagascar vanilla and the king of all vanilla - Tahitian vanilla (try to get some that is actually from Tahiti, rather than Papua New Guinea or Indonesia). Where Madagascar vanilla is rich in flavor with little subtilty (though still far more than imitation), Tahitian vanilla is floral, often with undertones of cherry and/or chocolate. However, there is only around 30 tones of vanilla produced in Tahiti a year and is often used in high end fragrances and cosmetics, so it is hard to find for use in food.
Then you have vanillas applications outside of sweet treats. You have not lived until you have tried a savory vanilla risotto with seared rabbit loin paired with a dry Riesling.
No one that has compared Madagascar and Tahitian vanilla to each other would ever be able to label vanilla as being boring. Again, it is a comment about vanilla that is restricted to those that have never actually tried real vanilla.
Based on the above, I would question whether the word "vanilla" should be used to denote something boring. Sure, someone at some point made that connection, it isn't a framing device of your own making. However, the person that made that connection very clearly didn't have an understanding of vanilla - so why would we use that framing device at all? It is better suited as a means of pointing out that you don't understand the subject matter enough to understand why it isn't boring.
If Ashes races were as "boring" as vanilla actually is (or isn't, as it were), then we are all in for a treat when the game does come out. However, I don't see the races as being quite that exciting, honestly.
Ok... Since I can't gently avoid saying it anymore...
It's what people say when they are referring to someone who has a boring sex life.
I didn't come up with the term @Noaani. I just used it in a sentence. I don't think the history of flavor or etymology of a vanilla bean was taken into account when it started being used this way. However, I could say that by today's standards for us lowly common folk (... You have not lived until you have tried a savory vanilla risotto with seared rabbit loin paired with a dry Riesling... 😆😆😆). Vanilla is the base choice for most things. Vanilla ice cream is the equivalent to plain when compared to Rocky road. Vanilla yogurt is the basic version when compared to the whole wall of flavor selections.
I did amend my phrase from "boring" to "safe choices", since that is probably more accurate. By no means do I expect them to make all new fantasy races, nor would I want that. I was just saying for a game that is pushing the envelope for so many aspects, they did go with the basics for a race selection.
Even if we ignore that, can you guess what those marshmallows in that rocky road are flavored with?
Edit; as to your yoghurt flavor comments - I would argue that plain unsweetened yoghurt is the base flavor - as that is literally just what yoghurt tastes like. Vanilla is an added flavor to the base yoghurt, along with sugar.
But if they have the last race have crazy animal like body pieces and borrow them from animals they already have and are working on in game that could be the most amazing primordial soup race in existence.
For example: The flaming fox mount already exist ingame and depending on how indepth they want to make animal husbandry the colors/skin combos will already be half fleshed out. If they borrowed the head and tail(s) you have 1 new race. But then lets say you like deer? Or those cats with floppy ears? The animal combos could be multiple races under 1 banner race name.
If they borrow from their own assets they can make this last race the 'animal' race and add more customizations as the game ages. Adjust the skeletons to have a standing crouch look. Put holes in the pants of the armor sets for tails and holes for horns in helmets for the mele classes and adjust the helmets for long snouts.
If they do this it would cover and bring variety to the people who dont much care for humans and technically be the most creative race customizer ive ever seen. Depending on how far they would like to go with it they wouldn't have to add a new race ever again XD they would just keep ripping new assets overtime and adding them as cool updates next to hairstyles and maybe pr'rai tree horn options.
And tattoos...lots of tattoos. Please add armors that show skin so I can see the tattoos. Nothing sucks more then making tattoos matter and having most armor sets cover them up.
Signed a GW2 player who plays Charr and Sylvari(who glow in the dark) and Khajit/Argonians in ESO. I always make at least 1 human to look like me cuz of course self insert.
I just want them to go crazy and blow everyones minds. I don't even care if they make it into launch or not. I'm already planning on being a Py'Rai Cleric/Bard on launch.
And there are 2 splits for the first 4.
Who is greedy enough for more? LotR's is the most loved fantasy in the world with roughly the same amount and Lineage 2 is renowed for its unique take on LotR's races + Dark elf. No need to fix what is loved and isn't broken.
You could make a small case for sea folk and fairies/plant/earth based race but unless they have substainally strong racial passives/abilities on land or sea they would look stupid and feel as though they were just added for cosmetic purposes.
When it comes to serious fantasy, you shouldn't overstretch and polish the wonderful meta races, otherwise they won't feel as special.
Unless it's a less serious/cartoon mmo like WoW, don't add in crap like Panda's and Undead...