How might Jackals thrive in a World filled with Lions?

Balanz

This is an offshoot of another long thread focused on retaining casual players with higher level players in the face of PvP against dedicated players with superior gear. That discussion is way beyond my experience, and I find myself more concerned with lowish characters facing a high level PvX environment populated by much stronger characters. This includes but is not limited to being frequently ganked, which in theory can be addressed by Corruption.

For the sake of discussion, I offer my imagined early game experience.

I am not an experienced PvPer, have not made a big dollar pledge (and so not eligible for play testing prior to Beta 2 at earliest), and might not start until the server is 60 days old or older. I have watched a lot of AoC content on YouTube, so I am not completely ignorant.

I create my character, suppose a Summoner for the sake of flexibility, and log in for the first time. While I am unlikely to be griefed much (yet), the nearby nodes are developing nicely. There are many established Guilds, and a thriving population of ambitious players.

Assuming I can level and acquire a little wealth in the usual manner, are there any nodes left I can become a citizen of? Are the guilds around me all full up? Assuming there are Guilds with open slots, is there any reason to think they would recruit me? What value can I provide?

Will there be enough others similarly new to the game that we can join together? Is there environment enough for us to versus, or is it all claimed by those who came before us? Can we function with developed nodes we cannot be citizens of, or must we seek more distant nodes abandoned by our elders? Could our tiny Guild function, or survive? Could it grow, or might it dwindle into fading embers out of despair?

The mechanics of AoC could address this somewhat. All nodes might grow along with the population, as well as the potential of each node as its parent grows. I've heard of some benefits for smaller Guilds. Maybe there will be enough Environment for everyone to level against in a few hundred hours of play, and all it takes is time.

But if we don't have access to the good nodes, and aren't participating with the strong Guilds, are we really playing AoC? If we can't play AoC, then could we spend our $15 per month on something else instead?

While game mechanics can make solutions possible, it seems to me that only social interaction can realize them.

So how will Jackals thrive in a world filled with Lions?

Dygz

I'm not sure I understand the question because Nodes rise and fall.
There should be several villages where you can become a citizen.
If there isn't - you could try to join a Siege on a Village or declare a Siege on a Village until one falls.

Some players will choose to never become a citizen of a Node.

Small Guilds should be fine.
Some small Guilds will choose to remain small because they get different perks than large Guilds.

I'm not sure how you measure "good" Node. I also don't know how you measure "strong Guild".
Some players will choose to never join a Guild.

You don't have to be a citizen of a Node to choose a Node as a base of operations.

Azherae

Take everything you said, and view it as optimistically as possible.

Then if it isn't, complain.

There's nothing you said, that anyone should really argue is against Ashes' philosophy. Sure, not everyone can be at the top, but if the game's intended positive experience is for you to find a place, then we must rely on them to put strong effort into making that place, and preventing outcomes where not even the place exists for the average player.

So I'd say assume that there is no separation of 'good nodes' and 'useless nodes'. There is no 'Guild that is strong purely by playing more and leveling to the point where it can ignore even the general populace'. There is no situation where your Guild can't find allies to at least do what you want and progress, even if under the shadow of threat of some psychopathic Warlord.

The key is probably to understand that the psychopathic Warlord IS part of the game. It's the 'story', it's the dynamism. If you play RPGs to experience that sort of world, where conflict and despots and troubles are at least looming in your life, then that's what you get.

The point isn't to 'thrive', I don't think, exactly. It's that people already play games where they are 'the underdog', the 'little Jackals' coming up against the Leonic Empires, doing their little bit to turn the tides or keep things from getting too bad.

I'm not sure MMO players are generally looking for this experience, but at the moment, Ashes is one of only maybe 3 games that even tries to provide it, so enjoy it for what it is.

George_Black

AoC wont be a game in which random players will teleport through the group finder in an instanced dungeon.

Which means that people will have to group up in the open world to take down simple (but challenging mobs). Whoever you group with regularly will end up being your guild.

If you are very bad you wont group up regulalry with many ppl, which means you will most likely join a massive guild full of randoms, with a detached leadership group.

Ludullu

Balanz wrote: »

But if we don't have access to the good nodes, and aren't participating with the strong Guilds, are we really playing AoC? If we can't play AoC, then could we spend our $15 per month on something else instead?

If this is your main goal, you should look into guilds with the same goal before the release. Even if your start is staggered, I'm sure there'll be someone who leaves that guild before you start and you can then take their place and level up faster because the guild will help you.

If you do not plan on playing a lot, yet that is still your goal - this game might not be for you because there won't be any participation awards, so you'll have to work hard or smart in order to achieve great heights.

But what you can do is just enjoy the game for what it is and the gameplay for what it will be on your lvl of involvement in the game. There'll always be small guilds recruiting and there'll always be nodes to become a citizen of (unless Intrepid screw up completely and make it impossible for everyone to be one).

Dygz

Or, if not your Guild, people that you commonly fight alongside - when you fight alongside other players.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

Or, if not your Guild, people that you commonly fight alongside - when you fight alongside other players.

Yep, I really hope people get into Steven's idea of "Node above all". Having small tightknit communities within the overall server community will be amazing, if the design works out as planned.

Noaani

Balanz wrote: »

But if we don't have access to the good nodes, and aren't participating with the strong Guilds, are we really playing AoC?

If that is how you want to play Ashes, why are you starting the game 60 days late?

You can never get more out of an MMO (or any activity) than you put in.

If you want to run with the lions, be a lion.

Balanz

Just to be clear, I am not complaining, nor am I asking for unearned gain. I am very impressed by AoC, and want it to succeed.

This is a thought exercise of how AoC can avoid failing to retain new players once the initial player base gets established, using myself as an example.

If by say sixty days after launch, all the necessary resources to advance are monopolized by established characters to the point where advancement sufficient to wrest those resources away are impractical, then Ashes may be difficult to sustain.

If there isn't enough open Environment to level, if Citizenship is necessary to craft and sell and there aren't enough slots available, and if older Guilds render newer Guilds impotent, and so latecomers are denied meaningful advancement, then Ashes will suffer.

I am not saying this will happen, but it is a potential failure mode, and should be avoided ahead of launch.

Further, as long as the mechanics permit solutions, it is much more a matter of how players actually behave.

Will PvP allow new players to wrest resources away from established characters, or will PvP allow established characters to consistently deny resources to newer players?

Or will there be enough resources so that a new player willing to put in sufficient effort will be able to advance to the point where they are competitive with established characters?

Talents

Well, you don't need to be a guild member to become a citizen of a node. Even if all the in-node static housing and apartments are full there will be more than enough room in the open-world to place a Freehold and claim citizenship that way.

When it comes to becoming a member of a guild, it depends what kind of guild you want to join. There are tons of social guilds that won't care what level you are. Hell you can see this by logging into lots of current MMOs. You'll login and straight away be flooded with guild invites while you're still level 1.

If you want to become a member of a competitive guild who is looking to contend Castles, then yeah, you'll need to have a max level character that is relatively geared, but that is again, like every other MMO.

Azherae

That part is going to be one of the hardest things to deal with, for Intrepid.

Old MMOs could be fairly 'abusive', in the sense that the bigger ones didn't have strong enough competition. They could use frustrating mechanics, time gating, annoying grinds, and unnecessary social conflicts, and people would keep coming back because it was the 'big social game' you could play.

MMOs got 'easier' partially BECAUSE they had to scale back on a lot of that, due to players just not putting up with it for particularly long, having consistently better options. Design got harder.

With FFXIV looming, even aiming to be a niche game, they're hoping to carve a very specific niche out, but it's like walking six tightropes at the same time. My suggestion to you IF even one of the things you say is true is in fact 'don't play'. By the time this game is done, we'll have three more MMOs that will almost certainly be better for inclusivity, which is what most of your points seem to be about.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

With FFXIV looming, even aiming to be a niche game, they're hoping to carve a very specific niche out, but it's like walking six tightropes at the same time. My suggestion to you IF even one of the things you say is true is in fact 'don't play'. By the time this game is done, we'll have three more MMOs that will almost certainly be better for inclusivity, which is what most of your points seem to be about.

And I'd bet money (if I had any) that all of those mmos will just be yet another themepark casual games where you get showered with rewards for just existing.

AoC can fill the void for a not-so-casual mmo with open world pvp and pve that, allegedly, will have no p2w. If anything, Intrepid need to look at what BDO is doing wrong and do that right. Obviously quite a lot of BDO players care about the combat a lot, so I doubt Ashes can win those people over, but I'd assume a lot of other BDO players want to see a competitor to that kind of game, not only to try out smth new but to push BDO forward. That is if Pearl Abyss even care about competitors at this point.

Drunkninja

I think it might be a matter of perspective and want. How you approach the game. If you think yourself a Jackal and approach the game as such, you have to ask yourself, how does a Jackal survive.

Lets take a step away for a second and reflect on a famous game called Eve Online. In that game you have guilds of players that are deeply imbedded into the economy. Groups that have massive wealth and gigantic stockpiles of resources. The best stories in gaming history, in my opinion, come from this game. The map is ever changing as players battle for dominance in their attempts to control the whole map. It isn't stagnate and ever changing. So why does the map change if people are already in control of the best of the best? It's the players. The players change the game state through politics and guile.

Jumping back to Ashes of Creation.

If you know you're a Jackal, be a Jackal. Lets say the land is filled and guilds are only recruiting top tier geared players. What are your options to move forward? First and foremost, you won't be alone. Find the other Jackals and form your pack. It would be very improbable that there wouldn't be at least a few others that are in your position. Take the initiative.

If you don't want to PvP and be brigands on the road, then you should learn the art of the silver tongue. Pick the City-state you want to ruin and start forming your plan to bring war to their door step. You must become a social predator, talk to everyone. Learn who is who, what players like the guilds in that city state and find the players who hate them. Rome didn't fall in a day, but it did fall.

Find the right people and start planting seeds. You don't have to be someone who can PvP, you just have to find the ones that have vested interest in vassal states who want to see the parent city fall. It could be something as simple as telling the right person that the head state intends to destroy their own vassal state because they want more resource.

What ever it takes, it's up to you to make the world change. And when it does and there's nothing but ashes left of that city state after the war. Be there when the new town starts and gain your citizenship and take what it is you wanted, to be a part of the world.

The cool thing about Jackals is that there are always more of them than the Lions.

Balanz

Drunkninja's comments are what I am seeking!

Dygz

I mean...there won't be 5 Metros on the same server within 60 days in any case, so there will still be places to be come a citizen if you want to.
Also, some Nodes will fall, even if you don't participate in their Sieges. Help progress a Node that takes the place of the fallen and become a citizen there.