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PVP Rank Indicators
keenow
Member
I don't know if this is a good idea or a really dumb idea, but I wanted to throw it out to the community hive mind to hear everyone's individual thoughts on having some sort of rank or PVP prowess indicator always visible next to your name? Such as, but not necessarily, a small diamond symbol of varying colors next to your player name that would indicate how often you won PvP encounters (both in open world and designated battles like in caravans or sieges.) Essentially a K/D ratio tracker, but maybe tweaked just to track your win/loss ratio within the past irl month or in-game year or whatever, so, you know, losses you may have had leveling up a character (like getting ganked when you're still a low level) eventually fade off of your history and don't transfer into your max-level character's rank.
I keep hearing this argument resurface on the forums about how your PvE "Casual" player will lose often to a hardcore PvP player and they'll quit the game for good because of frustration, the playerbase will slowly dwindle, the end is nigh, the normal doomsday-esque prediction...
I think at the end of the day, it's going to be a PvX game with both PvE and PvP regardless of how you personally feel about the other camp. But! It's obvious Ashes will have more PvP in an MMO than we typically see--which is exciting and new!
So, in a lot of recent FPS(or competitive pvp games) they'll rate people's matchmaking by giving them a rank. You're in bronze league, you're in diamond, etc. Because of matchmaking you usually only play with people in your rank. But! Occasionally, it'll group you with people of a higher or lower rank, depending on how your matches have been going.
For example, I used to play a lot of Overwatch with some friends. We were mostly ranked Platinum with one or two Diamonds so we would frequently go up against all diamond groups. When I saw a diamond group appear as our opponents I'd have a "oooo! It's gonna be a rough match! Time to put on my A-game!" mentality. Overall, I was less disgruntled/salty losing to an all diamond group than losing to a platinum group (or losing in a game I didn't know my opponents skill at all, such as oldschool Halo). Plus, I had an almost flattery or excitement of getting to fight against that highly ranked team at all. I would view the match from the successes I had against a harder opponent than beat myself up over the overall loss. (Plus getting to fight harder opponents helped me learn how to play better!) Then, in our matches against platinum groups, the platinum players would rightfully put more pressure against our diamond players because they were the MvPs. I think rankings are a key feature in competitive games.
Obviously there is not matchmaking in an MMO's PvP. I'm not advocating for that. There's open world PvP in Ashes and everyone's gonna be in the trenches together, but I'm wondering how people feel about having an indicator of their opponents skill level? And what pitfalls or benefits that might have?
I don't really see this ranking indicator present in MMOs. At least, I can't think of any. MMOs have levels, but when most people reach max level and get geared, I don't know whose a threat and whose not. (If you know of an MMO that displayed your current PvP rank in a mandatory fashion, let me know how that panned out in open world in the comments below! I'm curious.) The most I can think of is optional "titles" you could apply, like in WoW, but they weren't really indicative of how good of a player you were. It was more like you've won x amount of pvp battles, but it it didn't indicate if it took you 3 days or a year to win that many battles.
In an MMO it's inevitable there's going to be a mix of player skill-levels in any given battle. In Ashes specifically, we're looking at a lot of open world PvP. I think it could be beneficial pointing out how skilled your opponents are. Especially if there's some sort of incentive to fight players who are within your rank or higher, such as your own rank going up if you win against people within your rank or higher. First off, you'd know who the more dangerous players were, so you could focus them in a large battles (either with heals because they're your friend or attacks because they're your enemy.) If you aren't usually a PvPer, a casual, and someone attacks you out in the open world who is your rank, you could assume they aren't trying to gank you and that you might stand a chance because you're the same rank. So, you might be more open to fighting back. Or you could run from them, if a higher ranked player is trying to gank you out in the open world. If you're like me, you might feel less salty to losing against one of the most skilled players on the server. If you're looking for good PvP matches, you could find people within your rank and fight them for a good, even match. If you want to train to get better, or raise your own rank, you could pick fights with people ranked higher than you and seek out those tough battles. Then you'd have a bragging rights on the server when your rank was high and maybe instill fear into others! Lastly, I think people tend to overestimate their own skill and it's helpful to see where you land on an overall scale.
On the other hand, I can totally see the pitfalls. Ganking happens in MMOs, if you're a "bronze" skilled PvPer would that just put a target over your head? Would being "bronze" or "silver" make it harder for you to join content, like node wars or caravans because people wouldn't invite you to even give you chance? If most "bronze" players ended up being PvE players uninterested in PvP, would they even care that they didn't have equal access to that content?
Would implementing something like 'your rank only improves if you win against someone your rank or higher' help shift the target from lower skilled players to higher skilled players? Or would higher skilled players always pick on lower skilled players? Or would lower skilled players always flee from higher skilled players, making it harder for higher skilled players to find PvP content? (Although, surely they'd get invited to caravans and node sieges?)
Again. I don't know if this is a good idea or a dumb one, I really like the ranking system in other competitive games, but I was wondering what people's thoughts were about having a mandatory, easily distinguishable indicator of your current PvP rank above your head in an MMO? Helpful or hurtful?
I keep hearing this argument resurface on the forums about how your PvE "Casual" player will lose often to a hardcore PvP player and they'll quit the game for good because of frustration, the playerbase will slowly dwindle, the end is nigh, the normal doomsday-esque prediction...
I think at the end of the day, it's going to be a PvX game with both PvE and PvP regardless of how you personally feel about the other camp. But! It's obvious Ashes will have more PvP in an MMO than we typically see--which is exciting and new!So, in a lot of recent FPS(or competitive pvp games) they'll rate people's matchmaking by giving them a rank. You're in bronze league, you're in diamond, etc. Because of matchmaking you usually only play with people in your rank. But! Occasionally, it'll group you with people of a higher or lower rank, depending on how your matches have been going.
For example, I used to play a lot of Overwatch with some friends. We were mostly ranked Platinum with one or two Diamonds so we would frequently go up against all diamond groups. When I saw a diamond group appear as our opponents I'd have a "oooo! It's gonna be a rough match! Time to put on my A-game!" mentality. Overall, I was less disgruntled/salty losing to an all diamond group than losing to a platinum group (or losing in a game I didn't know my opponents skill at all, such as oldschool Halo). Plus, I had an almost flattery or excitement of getting to fight against that highly ranked team at all. I would view the match from the successes I had against a harder opponent than beat myself up over the overall loss. (Plus getting to fight harder opponents helped me learn how to play better!) Then, in our matches against platinum groups, the platinum players would rightfully put more pressure against our diamond players because they were the MvPs. I think rankings are a key feature in competitive games.
Obviously there is not matchmaking in an MMO's PvP. I'm not advocating for that. There's open world PvP in Ashes and everyone's gonna be in the trenches together, but I'm wondering how people feel about having an indicator of their opponents skill level? And what pitfalls or benefits that might have?
I don't really see this ranking indicator present in MMOs. At least, I can't think of any. MMOs have levels, but when most people reach max level and get geared, I don't know whose a threat and whose not. (If you know of an MMO that displayed your current PvP rank in a mandatory fashion, let me know how that panned out in open world in the comments below! I'm curious.) The most I can think of is optional "titles" you could apply, like in WoW, but they weren't really indicative of how good of a player you were. It was more like you've won x amount of pvp battles, but it it didn't indicate if it took you 3 days or a year to win that many battles.
In an MMO it's inevitable there's going to be a mix of player skill-levels in any given battle. In Ashes specifically, we're looking at a lot of open world PvP. I think it could be beneficial pointing out how skilled your opponents are. Especially if there's some sort of incentive to fight players who are within your rank or higher, such as your own rank going up if you win against people within your rank or higher. First off, you'd know who the more dangerous players were, so you could focus them in a large battles (either with heals because they're your friend or attacks because they're your enemy.) If you aren't usually a PvPer, a casual, and someone attacks you out in the open world who is your rank, you could assume they aren't trying to gank you and that you might stand a chance because you're the same rank. So, you might be more open to fighting back. Or you could run from them, if a higher ranked player is trying to gank you out in the open world. If you're like me, you might feel less salty to losing against one of the most skilled players on the server. If you're looking for good PvP matches, you could find people within your rank and fight them for a good, even match. If you want to train to get better, or raise your own rank, you could pick fights with people ranked higher than you and seek out those tough battles. Then you'd have a bragging rights on the server when your rank was high and maybe instill fear into others! Lastly, I think people tend to overestimate their own skill and it's helpful to see where you land on an overall scale.
On the other hand, I can totally see the pitfalls. Ganking happens in MMOs, if you're a "bronze" skilled PvPer would that just put a target over your head? Would being "bronze" or "silver" make it harder for you to join content, like node wars or caravans because people wouldn't invite you to even give you chance? If most "bronze" players ended up being PvE players uninterested in PvP, would they even care that they didn't have equal access to that content?
Would implementing something like 'your rank only improves if you win against someone your rank or higher' help shift the target from lower skilled players to higher skilled players? Or would higher skilled players always pick on lower skilled players? Or would lower skilled players always flee from higher skilled players, making it harder for higher skilled players to find PvP content? (Although, surely they'd get invited to caravans and node sieges?)
Again. I don't know if this is a good idea or a dumb one, I really like the ranking system in other competitive games, but I was wondering what people's thoughts were about having a mandatory, easily distinguishable indicator of your current PvP rank above your head in an MMO? Helpful or hurtful?
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I think it would hurt the less experienced. For obvious reasons.
I think it would make the more experienced bored, since a number of players would choose NOT to mess with them.
A ton of pvp content will be happening with/around parties. How would you properly calculate the rankings in a 8v8 or 24v24 fight? Do you give everything to the dps who get the kills or do you spread the points out across the whole party? But then you'll have healers and supports running around with top rank and scaring "weaker" players even when those players might've been able to kick that healer's ass w/o a problem.
And as much as I'd like a sight-read threat assessment system, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would feel put off from pvp if they see some big dick running around flagging on everyone. And you could become that kind of "big dick" by just making an alt and repeatedly killing it in pvp (or use your friends for that). And now you're running around w/o a care in the world, spooking people left and right w/o the true power required for that kind of reaction. Though I think @Azherae would have more info/data/insight on how people might react to this kind of system.
Ashes is focused on Objective-Based PvP.
Which means PvE players can focus on the PvE objectives for Sieges, Carvans and Guild Wars, rather than on the player-to-player combat.
So... it's still really PvX; not more PvP-focused.
You tell the participants the other's rank or win-loss ratio AFTER the fight.
It can significantly ease the blow to many player's feelings (not ego, that's separate) to know that the person who just beat them has generally won X number of encounters they have been in. You could even have it be just the last ten, and if you really want a lot of information, it could report 'whether or not those opponents were considered to be strong players or not' by whatever metric.
But as the iconic line goes...
"Never tell me the odds."
Reputation will spread on its own anyway, if it was somehow worth the time (or easy) to implement this sort of thing, I can't see it as being harmful long term... as long as you only tell people this rank AFTER a full interaction.
Now, how an MMO would ever manage to gather the type of performance metrics to properly rank players and not just lead into the usual 'playstyles leading to an absolute fear of losing', idk. I bet it could lead to more friendships though, if the attacker was a certain type of person. You can take someone's mats and still 'not want to make them feel terrible', and knowing that they often lose fights might make your reaction different.
On the other hand, there's the obvious huge problem that predatory people will just repeatedly pick on people they 'got the stats on', so if this were implemented, it'd probably be funnier/more useful if only the losing party got the information in question.
Beyond that, I don't really see any benefit to it, but since that is the benefit you mainly alluded to @keenow, I figure that's the interest point.
Perhaps that why I don't see rankings exist in PvP MMOs? They're afraid a higher skilled player will scare everyone else? I guess that's reasonable! I find myself missing the sense of competition rankings usually provide in other competitive games in MMOs' competitive PvP. I think the playerbase often gravitates towards PvE content because it has that separate rank distinction and equal rewards that go with it.
Thanks for sharing your opinion! I can definitely see less experienced players getting picked on. That's definitely possible and something I'd be worried about too, which is why I was brainstorming if the target could be moved off them by offering incentives like no rank advancement from a lower rank kill, but only advancement from your rank or higher. On the comment about higher ranked players getting bored, I think higher ranked players might get more challengers who want to covet their rank? They'd certainly see a lot of the lowest ranking PvPers run from them, but I think they'd get a lot of fights initiated from people a rank below them and from those on their same level. As long as you don't distinguish the top 50 or 100 or so and kept the rank margins fairly large, I think they'd still see a lot of PvP and, possibly, higher quality PvP.
I see I stepped on a landmine. Apologies! I'm well aware there are hardcore PvEers. I didn't mean to imply that only PvPers can be hardcore. I was simply framing the language the same way I usually see it stated on these forums. And since I disagree that PvEers can't also be hardcore, I had put "Casual" in airquotes. (but text doesn't often translate intent well.) For your point; I agree. I think Ashes is going to have a good balance of PvE and PvP content. Not more PvP focused, but a good balance between the two. A PvX game. But since many popular MMOs focus on PvE content, I think there will be more PvP content than most of the MMO playerbase is used to seeing in their MMO. "Ashes will have more PvP in an MMO than we typically see-" I hope that clears that language up and I hope we can prevent this discussion from falling into PvE vs. PvP bickering that I often see on these forums.
My question was, whether you prefer PvE or PvP content, I'm interested to hear your opinion on seeing an indicator of another player's PvP prowess, and how you think it'll affect the game. Positive or negative! I'm open to either opinion or verdict, I was merely interested in hearing a discussion on the topic.
Oooo! I absolutely ADORE this take! That you would only see the person who defeated you's ranking on like the respawn screen? It would lessen the problem of more unskilled players getting picked on and it would lessen the blow of being too salty when a skilled player took you down! Thanks for sharing your opinion!! That was a great idea.
And when you'd see a shining character run towards your farming spot - you'd know there's gonna be some difficult pvp coming up, cause usually the Heroes would also be OEd to all hell and fully buffed.
Here's a video from the pov of such a Hero, though they're on their secondary class here so they don't have some Hero abilities (which are quite OP too). They do have the Hero weapon though (the shining one-handed staff).
As a hardcore PvPer I can say this is very true. If you stand out, people will instantly recognize a threat and avoid it before anything even has a chance to happen. In Blade and Soul my character was MASSIVE, especially compared to the majority of the playerbase. The Gon race is already fairly larger than the others, but most players were half my Destroyers size or smaller. People in areas I ganked learned this and how I dressed and those that didn't want to deal, left.
I get the mentality that ganking those unwilling to fight can be seen as toxic, but if people are in a position to be ganked in most games, they shouldn't have a free out that they wouldn't have taken normally because they didn't know the threat. If you see an entire squad or guild stampede over a hill and it's just you and a buddy chopping wood, then sure, it would make sense to dip. What doesn't make sense is allowing people to notice a single player that you would normally fight, but realizing he has a top battlegrounds player icon and running without even giving up a fight. On top of this, it's borderline unrealistic looking at it from an RP standpoint, so even some casuals should understand that POV. Looking at this from an additional POV, the higher end PvPers themselves, if people keep avoiding you purely because of your rank icon, it will be incredibly frustrating to get resources and PKs and sometimes even just talk to people or scout an area. If someone who happens to be a scout/vanguard checks an area, and they have a huge "this guy is part of a high end guild" icon floating above them, that would set off a million alarms.
This is also why I am hoping AoC provides something BNS did, which is an outfit that allows you to cloak your identity. BNS had assassin (faction) outfits and a veil, that when both equipped, hid your name, title, and guild from those around you, as well as preventing chat. AoC could do something similar with cloaks, such as preventing interaction with certain NPCs, not allowing safe travel through certain guarded cities/towns, and/or other things that would normally be semi-important to the average player. This all makes sense and isn't the same thing as showing an icon because the outfit itself covers the player and their face, thus being a natural and realistic way of doing things.
If you want to give players an incentive for showing off their PvP prowess, give them PvP earned mounts, skins, titles, and etc that they have an option of showing off or keeping hidden depending on their choice. A chat badge next to their name when they speak could also be implemented.
TL;DR: Threat recognition should be learned naturally through already present in-game identifiers, not given through the use of a forced standout icon due to PvP accolades.
PvP | Hardcore | Organized & Dedicated
But I also don't think I'd be upset to be killed by someone shining like a literal god. The effect itself seems a bit obnoxious, but since it's only for the #1 player of their class, I'm sure it got passed around enough that it never felt annoying. Did you get to play Lineage II? And, if so, did you like the shiny effect thing or not?
Sidenote; while I like the idea of assessing your enemy's power lvl off of gear, Ashes sounds like it'll have a cosmetic shop, so unfortunately I don't think that'll be a reliable option. But I think things like that are the type of good power indicator I tend to find myself missing in MMOs PVP.
75% of the PvP most people in Ashes participate in is likely to be against the same two dozen or so players.
The only people this isnt the case for are those going out of their way looking for PvP.
What's your take on Azherae's idea? Where they only show you someone's rank after they die on the death/respawn screen? So they couldn't run from you outright? Do you think if after dying once and news of your rank spread, you'd still get avoided like the plaque? (I mean, I would avoid someone who just ganked me either way!) Do you think you could still find PvP with people? Surely, your reputation would spread one way or another. A cloak to hide your lvl sounds kinda cool! But also, as your average human, I feel like I'd be immediately suspicious of anyone wearing a power concealing cloak.
I appreciate the input and perspective you provided! Thanks!
Note that you might have a different experience of something, I'll have to use a very specific Fighting Game reference though, you can tell me what you think of it.
There is a vast number of players of competitive games at the mid-level who will do anything to avoid losing. This is not the same as doing whatever it takes to win, because that's encouraged. In practice from the game perspective, it's the same, but this situation is the one where the difference REALLY matters.
When I fight opponents with less skill than me in games but with similar or higher rank, and I demonstrate the skill difference, they run to the other end of the screen/stage/arena/whatever. QUICKLY. Because if they aren't in range for me to hit them, it's harder to lose, and by forcing me to advance, they might be able to catch a mistake and win.
People do this even when I have the 'life lead' so far that winning would be impossible. I.e. they have like 10/1000 health remaining and I have 900/950 and the timer is running down. Because they don't want to lose. When I defeat those players anyway (to their credit, I don't manage more than a coinflip because I'm impatient), most of them QUIT PLAYING instantly.
This doesn't make 'sense' though, right? It's a game where 'fighting other people' is a majority of the content. These are 'battle lounges'. They choose to come into mine, they fight normally at first, then they 'avoid losing at all costs' even if they will STILL LOSE by timer. Because they don't want to be 'proven worse'.
Most HIGH ranked players don't do this even when I am keeping up with them. Just the 'mids' (this isn't actual mid, think moreso top 20% of active players. Most of those players got where they got by 'being willing to lose and learn'. But every so often, I'll even meet a Diamond player that will do this even when their character isn't actually good at doing it.
Human psychology is WEIRD. Or maybe not so much and you just have to take it for what it is. But this is a relatively known behaviour in games. 'I would rather do anything whatsoever to avoid losing to a more skilled player in a way that showcases my shortcomings'. There are quite a few MOBAs and shooters that have to explicitly add mechanics JUST to prevent the stagnation of matches that comes from this behaviour.
I wouldn't COUNT on people in Ashes, even people with mid-high PvP rank/winrate, actually 'being willing to randomly fight people whose rank is high'. The ambitious strong ones will do it, but the 'only above average' playerbase of most games will absolutely find the most obnoxious way possible to avoid losing, as it is the only way they can 'hurt' a more skilled opponent sometimes. You've played Overwatch, I'd be really surprised if you didn't experience this, though they also made it much harder to do in that game, imo for this very reason.
While true, people who want to test their skills on high end opponents intentionally will organize this with each other once they realize they are on the same level.
Personally, I think it is far more rewarding for people to recognize threats by name or appearance than being given handouts. This is also from the perspective of the PvPer, where you know people are weary of you simply because they think you look like "that guy" or because you are a part of "that guild." When people recognize a name or appearance instead of a system that does the work for them, it is far more satisfying in my opinion.
PvP | Hardcore | Organized & Dedicated
Thanks for your input, by the way! You seem really well versed in behavioral patterns. I liked all of your takes! I don't know if you hear this often, but you come off as smart and really well spoken! Thanks for entertaining the topic in a kind and productive way
I see! Many thanks for the hardcore PvPer perspective! I guess I could see being so good you can strike fear into others with reputation/name alone being it's own kind of badge.
Dang, we got a pro!
I think there are several ways for us to monitor PvP rank in Ashes.
There's a leaderboard for Arena PvP.
There are quests that track individual wins and losses for Caravan participants - I expect other players to be able to see those rankings somewhere - via character sheets similar to what's available for BattleNet seems likely.
I think having some kind of PvP ranking outside of Arenas and Battlegrounds encourages ganking.
Simply add pvp titles that you achieve while playing. This could be something like killing a total of 100, 1000, 10.000 enemy players. Another example could be implementing class specific titles in pvp that you would get after killing a certain amount of players; a fighter class would get "Berserker, Relentless fighter, Merciless fighter etc". You can then choose to display these titles to show others.
This would also include monthly titles achieved from sieges. Say killing 100-300 players in a siege war for that month, granting you a title that gives a lightning shield glow effect around your character. The color is based on the amount of players killed. The title would then disappear when the upcoming siege starts, unless you reach the same goal again.
If they implement an arena or battleground system in the game it might be cool to have the indicators/titles next to a user's name or on the scoreboard for all to see that resets every season or every few months.
Showing the title in open world may shy other not so PvP oriented players away and give up hope before a fight even starts. The ones that care will know your name though.