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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
I implore the devs to work on archetypes and classes before it's too late.
Murdach
Member
You guys are doing cool shit here, but there seems to be a lack of urgency or transparency on how classes are coming along. As the 64 classes was the exact issue that garnered my interest, I am becoming increasingly alarmed at the lack of info. I am worried that you will come up with a cool game world, but not be able to fit the class system into the core game systems well because it is an after-thought.
You can say that you are working on this, but you need to check out the arguments happening around projected classes. We arent tearing the community apart or anything, but people are solidifying what they think a class will be in their minds. If you let someone have a solidified concept of something, but then your vision doesnt line up with theirs, you will be left with a disaffected customer who may just leave because of an avoidable misunderstanding.
If you dont believe me, just take a look at the aftermath of CDPR's Cyberpunk. Most of their player's vitriol was because of unmanaged expectations.
You can say that you are working on this, but you need to check out the arguments happening around projected classes. We arent tearing the community apart or anything, but people are solidifying what they think a class will be in their minds. If you let someone have a solidified concept of something, but then your vision doesnt line up with theirs, you will be left with a disaffected customer who may just leave because of an avoidable misunderstanding.
If you dont believe me, just take a look at the aftermath of CDPR's Cyberpunk. Most of their player's vitriol was because of unmanaged expectations.
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Comments
Edit: To conform to proper nomenclature.
Cyberpunk failed at that exactly because they promised a shitton and then didn't have most of the things they promised. Intrepid haven't promised anything concrete so far, they've only vaguely described what they wanna have in the game. Now, if Steven goes on the next dev stream and says "the Necromancer will have 20 skelingtons following him around and can then combine them into one 20ft skelington from target" and then on release we don't see that feature - that'd be a Cyberpunk-like failure.
But so far we've only seen this: Steven says that they have a weather system unlike any other game's - and then we fucking got a weather system unlike any other game's. So I'd suggest trust the devs for now, wait until they're ready and keep your wild imagination calm. At least that's what I'm doing, even though I'd love to come up with all kinds of cool shit.
I think it was because the game was only 1/2 finished. Expecting a game without game-crushing bugs, T Poses, and PS2 graphics on anything other than a PS5 isn't "unmanaged expectations" 😅
They're working on classes. Alpha 2 will have more available and have the subclass system in place. Patience.
Actually, those bugs and graphics did not stop people from loving the Witcher series. I played every Witcher from launch and already knew CDPR made eurojank. The problem was most fans jumped in at Witcher 3, after they hired the cats that modded 1 and 2 into a good shape.
That being said, even though Cyberpunk has reportedly been modded and fixed cats still dont want to go back and play because they feel they got burned the first time around.
Ashes of Creations very first advertising point was the Class system and having 64 of them. I dont think it's unreasonable for them to put effort into more than 3 of the base archetypes 5 years later.
I'm just saying. It's gonna get ugly if it's left to fester.
So people liked one buggy 1/2 finished game in the past & therefore if people don't like it again then it's their fault for having "unmanaged expectations" for a finished game? Makes sense.
in pve it doesn't really matter if some skill is more op than another, but in pvp balance is too crucial and the more combinations you have, the more impossibile it becomes to balance them all.
we'll see.
Even though marketting/advertisement has been stale for the average gaming audience, it appears as though they are going to stay shut on that front and weather the storm when their Alpha 2 is quite the polished beast and then the opinions and criticism's will rain.
The reason why people say this is because your main class decides all of your skills. Your second class "changes nothing" when it comes to what you can do. It changes "how" you do what you can do.
And making that very clear to try and keep people from running off into fantasy thinking the enchanter is nothing like the mage. But yeah, who knows how deep it will go in the end
No! We also have the example of applying a Mage's Fire or Lightning augment to the Fighter's Charge Active Skill.
Devs rarely respond here.
For Ashes, I think most of us are drooling to see the other archetypes, and the interaction (synergies + advantages/disadvantages) between the archetypes. Just to note - because this always comes up - there are only 8 core classes with 8 variations each, Not 64 completely distinct classes. Think 8 base ice creams with 8 different toppings.
*Drool* making me crave icecreams now.
But on a serious note this is one of the better descriptions I've seen for how classes should be thought of.
Someone involved in those conversations should probably try to stop that from happening.
As an aside, the reason we don't have solid class info as yet is because it isn't finalized. Intrepid don't want people forming solid opinions on things that are still changing.
Pretty much.
yes you have total 64 RP variations, but from gameplay perspective you will not have 64 unique classes - just 8 with customization options to steal stuff from the other 7 classes
― Plato
Regardless how many hoops Intrepid jump through, people will always set unrealistic expectations.
I would like to see the skills, augments, and combat system as a whole, laid out in detail for all to see and experience. But only because I am curious.
Steven gave a perfectly good explanation as to why they choose to wait before they show off the new combat system, and I support that decision.
We have not seen anything new for over a year now regarding a key part of the game. Weather and super detailed character creators are nice but for me that is icing on the cake. The core classes are part of the actual cake.
Cant make a class without finalized combat... cant make skills without finalized combat... and they are doing a combat overhaul? Hmmmm.
I don't expect to see any solid information on classes in their finished form until the game is heading in to beta - potentially even in to public beta.
Releasing class information is a solid hype move. You want to build hype leading up to the release of the game - meaning you want to release class information leading up to the release of the game.
Yes, Intrepid seems to have Obi-Wan Kenobi's philosophy when it comes to facts. "So, what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Step 1: Redefine what the word "class" means even though it's a very well-defined term in role-playing games going back 50+ years to the original D&D game.
Step 2: Create a system with 64 "classes", which aren't really classes, we just call them that.
Step 3: Advertise that "THIS GAME HAS 64 CLASSES OMG!!!!111".
Step 4: Let the community patiently explain how the game really has only 8 classes.
Yes, it's a pet peeve of mine. I really don't like when Intrepid has these used car sales tactics when promoting their game.
Given Intrepid's recent track record of under-promising and over-delivering (e.g. Dynamic Seasons), we may be surprised at what the Archetypes eventually turn out to be, @Atama.
You remember the very first Star Wars movie title, do you not?
"A New Hope."
This is why these pet peeves are just pet peeves. They've blown me away many times. Heck, I played Alpha 1, which has a tiny bit of the content the final game will have, and it was actually fun. Really fun.
I cut Intrepid a lot of slack because what they've already accomplished is amazing. They've earned passes from me. That doesn't mean I can't gripe now and then.
But they aren't classes. They've been very clear to temper expectations; augments can change the way you do things, but not what you can do.
What's frustrating to me is that what they actually have is so great, they don't have to lie to market it. Maybe the idea is that you spin a falsehood to draw people in, and once they see how things actually work then players are enchanted and stick around. Maybe that actually works. Maybe the truth is too hard to put in small, catchy terms that work well in ads. But I still just think it's a bad principle to lie to people to sell your product, no matter how good that product really is.
To me it's like advertising that the game is so huge that it is 1,000 square miles in size. Then you explain that what people on Verra call a "mile" is closer to a tenth of a mile in the real world. But then you show people how much is packed into all of that terrain, it's not empty space like other MMORPGs, there is so much content, and hope people don't feel cheated. (And maybe they won't, but still, it seems wrong.)
But even with all of that, they were still considered "different classes" and were valued separately. So if Intrepid manage to make good augments - I'd still consider those 8 "classes" different enough to be considered classes.
Even if we take that damn TP augment and consider that it's a school of augments, we might be able to apply that school to more abilities, which might create a "teleport-warrior" whose gameplay and party role would most likely differ from smth like a "fire-warrior" and would most definitely make it different from a "life-warrior". So in theory it's not just 64 classes, but potentially even more, if each archetype has several augment schools within them (like mage's TP and Elements). And yes, as you said, augments don't only come from classes so there might be even more depth and variety in it.
And exactly because of those possibilities I reserve my judgement for class design until we see that design. I'm preparing to just have 8 roles with maybe some variance, but I hope that Intrepid manage to pull off what they want and what they've promised. And so far they've been able to pull off quite a few things already.