Combat Desire Compilation #2 - Throw Yours In

To be brief.

This topic is to absorb all the arguments about stuff that Intrepid did NOT ASK FOR FEEDBACK ON for the current stream data.

Obviously there is a topic for direct feedback for June Update, so if you only care about giving feedback that you know Intrepid will definitely listen to and be looking for, head there. This thread is almost certainly gonna be a lot of arguing and compiling of everything else.

Things the June Update Stream did not show:
1. Exact effect of blocking.
2. Specifics of procs on attacks
3. Spacing concepts
4. Weapon Skills and Weapon Skill Trees
5. Any weapons other than Greatsword and Dual Wield Daggers
6. Any information on how Tab Targeting would work
7. Any information on exactly the effect of a reticle on attack spacings (we just get hitboxes, which are difficult to deconstruct and subject to change anyway)

My opinions are not particularly important to this topic, I'll continue to just compile, but obviously I'll argue and correct misinterpretations as best I can, and I'm sure we can call in a lot of people who can correct whichever misinterpretations I have.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Ludullu

I loved that the rock throw ability pushed the character back. What I wanna know is whether there'll be pushback from strong mob attacks if you're blocking with a shield. Same in pvp. Would some player be able to push me back with a super strong attack? I feel like that'd be a super cool and "realistic" use of the body collision system.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

I loved that the rock throw ability pushed the character back. What I wanna know is whether there'll be pushback from strong mob attacks if you're blocking with a shield. Same in pvp. Would some player be able to push me back with a super strong attack? I feel like that'd be a super cool and "realistic" use of the body collision system.

This would also add a balance factor to heavy vs light weapons, light weaponry having shorter reach and therefore more susceptible to being pushed out of attack range by big swings, which would then have to be countered by awareness of this and expectation to use mobility, so any input on that (from anyone at all) will be compiled as well.

CROW3

Too many meetings today. I'll chime in this evening once I get a chance to watch the live-stream.

Mag7spy

Steven said weapons don't have their own abilities and he hates that in mmos so don't think that is a thing we will be seeing. As abilities will be dived by the class you play and the augments

Though I'm sure there will be skill trees most likely.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

This would also add a balance factor to heavy vs light weapons, light weaponry having shorter reach and therefore more susceptible to being pushed out of attack range by big swings, which would then have to be countered by awareness of this and expectation to use mobility, so any input on that (from anyone at all) will be compiled as well.

The biggest potential issue with this I can see is all the people always complaining about loss of agency and control due to other players' actions.

Wasn't NW's stagger removed cause people complained about that type of thing? Or was it just "too hard" for people?

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

This would also add a balance factor to heavy vs light weapons, light weaponry having shorter reach and therefore more susceptible to being pushed out of attack range by big swings, which would then have to be countered by awareness of this and expectation to use mobility, so any input on that (from anyone at all) will be compiled as well.

The biggest potential issue with this I can see is all the people always complaining about loss of agency and control due to other players' actions.

Wasn't NW's stagger removed cause people complained about that type of thing? Or was it just "too hard" for people?

That was a good change when they removed stagger, it wasn't a fun mechanic imo and a lot of people i played with agreed. Why use any skills or anything when you can just spam click until you win with a fast weapon.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

This would also add a balance factor to heavy vs light weapons, light weaponry having shorter reach and therefore more susceptible to being pushed out of attack range by big swings, which would then have to be countered by awareness of this and expectation to use mobility, so any input on that (from anyone at all) will be compiled as well.

The biggest potential issue with this I can see is all the people always complaining about loss of agency and control due to other players' actions.

Wasn't NW's stagger removed cause people complained about that type of thing? Or was it just "too hard" for people?

Right, but to consider something. Knockback that changes your spacing to an opponent without actually preventing or even interrupting your attack is not, strictly speaking 'stagger'.

Stagger afaik always refers to being interrupted and being unable to start a new animation or attack. In this case I'm talking about 'I as the Dagger Wielder am slammed away from you the Greatsword wielder just as my attack is starting'.

My attack continues, but if I was at close range I still hit, if I was too far out, now my attack whiffs, but at no point did my actual attack falter, my spacing changed.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

That was a good change when they removed stagger, it wasn't a fun mechanic imo and a lot of people i played with agreed. Why use any skills or anything when you can just spam click until you win with a fast weapon.

I mean, it's on Amazon to properly balance their design instead of removing it completely just because some people don't like it.

Fast weapons stunlock people with stagger? Make the stagger have diminishing returns on such weapons.

Slow weapons feel "weak"? Make their stagger a fraction of a second longer, so that you have a "bigger dick" feeling when hitting someone, but your target could still dodge you if they're faster so you still need skill to use that "big dick".

Mag7spy

I dont want to get too inot new world combat here so my last point will be is yes it could be balanced for it and fun akin to dark souls / elden ring. But the whole combat in new would was too shallow without enough depth. So the balancing would have to be reworking the combat as a whole imo for stagger to be fun in that game.

Shoelid

Not sure if this fits what you're looking for in this thread:

I feel like the mobs need much more telegraphing on attacks. There were lots of dodging and blocking options, but monsters would throw out abilities with no room for counterplay. There's a million ways to do this, and you shouldn't have counterplay for every single attack, but the really big moves came out instantly and it seemed weird to me.

In a similar vein, the attacks didn't seem to affect the monsters. The big attacks didn't stagger them, and they didn't have any "reaction to hit" animations to sell the player's attacks. I think that stagger mechanics and enough reaction animations will help pull the game away from feeling like an AOE fest.

I expect these things to be in the game eventually, but might as well give feedback on it regardless.

Azherae

Shoelid wrote: »

Not sure if this fits what you're looking for in this thread:

I feel like the mobs need much more telegraphing on attacks. There were lots of dodging and blocking options, but monsters would throw out abilities with no room for counterplay. There's a million ways to do this, and you shouldn't have counterplay for every single attack, but the really big moves came out instantly and it seemed weird to me.

In a similar vein, the attacks didn't seem to affect the monsters. The big attacks didn't stagger them, and they didn't have any "reaction to hit" animations to sell the player's attacks. I think that stagger mechanics and enough reaction animations will help pull the game away from feeling like an AOE fest.

I expect these things to be in the game eventually, but might as well give feedback on it regardless.

Literally anything that you think of about combat that Intrepid did NOT ask for input on this time, is up for discussion in this one.

I think the reason why we don't have framestop on hits is simply because we also have cleaving, and you'd have to build a separate system to manage the two.

I personally prefer when even Action Games don't give you room for counterplay against the mobs basic swings, or it devolves into high mobility characters just never taking damage, but this might not be what you meant.

TheDarkSorcerer

Otr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Steven said weapons don't have their own abilities and he hates that in mmos so don't think that is a thing we will be seeing. As abilities will be dived by the class you play and the augments

Though I'm sure there will be skill trees most likely.

With 64 "classes", they'll have plenty of work to come up with all possible skills.
I think the strategic concept here, from Intrepid point of view is that you make a character and you will not be able to just reach max level, switch weapons and instantly get new skills and play style.
But those will come from multiple alts, which will take time to level (1-2 months each).
This way players will have reason to stay in the game and try different combinations for a long time.

Don't look at them as 64 classes.

"We're not really talking about 64 true classes, we're talking about eight classes with 64 variants... " - Jeffrey Bard

I don't think variants get as many skills as your core class. It's really just a subclass or a path you choose in your core class.

Percimes

About the combat damage floating text...

I wonder if it would be possible, or how useful it would be, if instead of always going the same direction, the damage done was floating away from the direction of the attacker. Enemy on your right hit you, damages goes left. Enemy hit you from the back, damage float up/front of your character. In the chaos of large fights, or against multiple opponents, it would help identify who's the heavy hitter. Kind of a blood splatter effect, but in red typeface.

CROW3

Sorry, it’s been a long day - and I’m being lazy. I’m copying what I wrote for Karthos, but I think it applies here…. As always curious on your thoughts, @Azherae

Here’s my opinion based on what I observed…

First the 2H:
- The idle animation gave the weapon gravity, it looked like the weapon had weight to both hold and heft - which lent some immersion points
- The weapon swings seemed smooth and well-animated (especially given this is alpha) and again also seemed to telegraph the weight of the sword in the direction of the attack
- The cadence of the attacks seemed ok. I’d like to get a feel for several slower attack speeds - I think there’s a better balance by slowing the heavy 2hnders down, which relatively speeds the daggers up (aka the daggers don’t need to be faster)
- The cleave attacks looked powerful, and appropriate
- The overhead active block looked neat, but I didn’t see it actively block anything (someone chime in if you did). Is that a 50% mitigation to block with a 2H?
- I’m not a fan of the golden swooshes, and hope these get toned down, they don’t lend anything functional over time, and if every attack has golden swooshes, they lose all significance and may as well not be there. So save the CPU effects for more powerful abilities
- I’m super curious to see other 2H basic animations now - especially for staves and polearms which have entire different attack patterns, but still have weight

Daggers:

- the speed felt felt right
- The character’s animations seemed too engaged. The advantage to fighting with knives is their non-communal nature. A full lunge is just silly with a knife.
- The dual attacks are good, though I would add more asymmetrical attacks, even reversing the grip on one of the knives which is a common tactic when fighting with two shorter bladed weapons because it gives you more options faster
- I’m super interested in seeing if there’s a difference in how a warrior with daggers may fight versus a rogue with daggers
- Also my comment above on the silver swoops applies to daggers as well. The swoops take away from how cool the animations can be - and I’d rather focus on my character’s ability to fight than swoopy BDO flash bangs.

Overall, I’m happy with what I saw. I just want to see more. Specifically, how an active cast ability blends with the basic animations. Is there a target lock (aka Witcher 3 or AC) or just an action soft lock to deliver casted / ranged attacks?

Azherae

Well, this is a thread where my OPINIONS aren't supposed to matter much, but on the side of 'thoughts' that are relevant but not necessarily opinions per se...

I am surprised that they committed to a high speed medium mobility game with heavy skill targeting, but mainly because a lot of the prior feedback seemed to be against it.

I think that the speed of the attacks is not as important as the Time-To-Move after them, so it would be possible to slow the Greatsword, and my Greatsword user thinks so as well (she'll probably give feedback in main Feedback Thread).

My opinion on Daggers is in that thread too.

From eyeballing it, it seems that blocking is indeed a percentage mitigation, and I do not expect that to be changed, for various reasons relative to balance later.

It seems that the feedback has been much more targeted than usual in the main thread (perhaps a community demographic change?) so this one is probably thankfully much less necessary. Maybe we can pivot it to 'hey, show us this next!' or something... or maybe the news hasn't spread far/fast yet.

Mag7spy

I want to see dual wield with two one handed swords tbh, that is the dream build for me lol

HeetCrusher

Was wondering if there will be skills like a back stab to where you don't have to face the target. Say you are engaged with someone and see another coming from the rear of you. Will there be skills that don't require to face the target in melee.

Azherae

HeetCrusher wrote: »

Was wondering if there will be skills like a back stab to where you don't have to face the target. Say you are engaged with someone and see another coming from the rear of you. Will there be skills that don't require to face the target in melee.

We saw the 360 spin attack, and it seems that the Greatsword has also retained some of its property from Alpha-1 of being able to hit behind the player a bit, with an animation improvement to telegraph that this can happen (for the third hit).

It has been implied (but not specifically stated) that basic attacks are intentionally more 'action-y', so skills might operate somewhat differently.

I have no idea if either of these points answers your question, but I mention them anyway.

Grom1

Here’s my opinion based on what I observed:

The speed both of casting abilities and movement speed during combat can be a problem. I would love to know frame data of abilities but I guess that's impossible in current say. I would suggest testing abilities with longer casting frames and decreased base movement speed. It isnt For Honor or fighting game and visual clarity will be the problem in group fights so increasing casting times and reducing movement speed to increase visual clarity would be a great idea.
I would love to hear what is the design stance on group fights in the context of visual clarity. How do they want to handle multiple AoE abilities on small area, how do they want to make every ability clear in group fight, what kind of visual indicator do they want to use for status effects. Do they want to limit passive effecets and visual representation should they have? I'm really a big proponent of increasing importance of visual clarity over complexity.
The animation of dashing has this wierd "floating" effect when the height is different between start and end position.
I agree with @CROW3 on "golden swooshes". The disting graphic effects should be used on key abilities to show their importance, improve visibity of them in group combat. Do not overuse them.
I suspect that the high movement speed during combat can be a problem if AoE targeted abilities are introduced. This is a major problem because it will make hitting AoE abilities with longer casting times and low area very hard or almost imposible. This can force low casting times and/or high area of effects which will greatly decrease visibility. I can't stress enough how important it is.

I would really like to hear what is the feedback from players on visiblity depending on number of players in fight.

Azherae

To address some points then, (others, please watch for bias).

Grom wrote: »

The speed both of casting abilities and movement speed during combat can be a problem. I would love to know frame data of abilities but I guess that's impossible in current say. I would suggest testing abilities with longer casting frames and decreased base movement speed. It isnt For Honor or fighting game and visual clarity will be the problem in group fights so increasing casting times and reducing movement speed to increase visual clarity would be a great idea.

See, I thought this too, because obviously lots of people said this was a dispreference for them, but now that I've seen it, I can tell you that there will be minimal problems with visual clarity other than 'particle effects everywhere which is quite possibly intentional. And so far, the only thing that has made us go 'this isn't a fighting game' was an expectation about how something would be dialed down, but now it has been dialed up. I feel like we can no longer say 'this isn't a fighting game' in the way it is normally implied, and I say that as a person who plays 12 of them.

Grom wrote: »

I would love to hear what is the design stance on group fights in the context of visual clarity. How do they want to handle multiple AoE abilities on small area, how do they want to make every ability clear in group fight, what kind of visual indicator do they want to use for status effects. Do they want to limit passive effecets and visual representation should they have? I'm really a big proponent of increasing importance of visual clarity over complexity.

Since I think we can no longer go based on just Alpha-1, I'll add this wish to the data. I'm taking data from others who agree or disagree with this one too, though this is the sort of thing Intrepid is likely to make a whole separate thing on, so as the close of your own post indicates, let's get that input.

Grom wrote: »

I suspect that the high movement speed during combat can be a problem if AoE targeted abilities are introduced. This is a major problem because it will make hitting AoE abilities with longer casting times and low area very hard or almost imposible. This can force low casting times and/or high area of effects which will greatly decrease visibility. I can't stress enough how important it is.

If we go back to point #1, and assume 'this is supposed to be a game with a skill floor similar to that of a MOBA or modern fighter', The last thing you conclude is unlikely. There would be no specific reason to force low cast times or high Area coverage. You would just be expected to 'predict and target' well enough. This is basically what I experienced in Alpha-1, and while we can't say 'that means we will get more of it', the direction change doesn't have to result in it.

The game might just have a higher skill ceiling in PvP outright. We saw from the Hammer skill that the AoE of that isn't particularly large, I feel like without predicting the enemy, it would be easy to miss with that, and that the enemy in question can probably just barely see it to dodge.

You can get some frame data in the usual way from the YouTube step-through of the 4K video. Others including myself have already done some of it. Make sure to adjust for the original framerate. Of course, the frame data is probably one of the things most subject to change, and we don't yet know if there will be 'Cast/Attack speed reduction' stuff, or how they will be handling it if there is any.

Child Item