New Class System Idea.

I think that the 64 class system is too much, may be a nightmare to balance.
Instead of combining classes with classes, my idea was to combine each class with an element and find a cool way to incorporate it into the lore.
3 specs to start, in future patches new specs could be added like for example a Crystal Healer for Earth, a dark ranger for shadow etc.
Race + Element = 3 spec choices like in Vanilla Wow
Each Element could have profession bonuses within their talent trees, say a Geomancer gets more Advanced Smelting.
Nature could create wooden ammo
Water could have unlimited mana in the water etc.

Fighter Tank Assassin Ranger Caster Healer
Earth Blade-dancer StoneGaurdian Geomancer
Fire Dragon-Knight Rage-blade Pyro
Nature Feral Druid Beast Master Shaman
Air Rhonin Horse Archer Bard
Ice Viking Lich Tundra-stalker
Water Samurai Blood Knight Sea priest
Lightning Dragon lancer Flash-blade Tempest
Light Monk Paladin Cleric
Shadow Soul Reaper Night-blade Warlock

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Azherae

Jexar wrote: »

I think that the 64 class system is too much, may be a nightmare to balance.
Instead of combining classes with classes, my idea was to combine each class with an element and find a cool way to incorporate it into the lore.
3 specs to start, in future patches new specs could be added like for example a Crystal Healer for Earth, a dark ranger for shadow etc.
Race + Element = 3 spec choices like in Vanilla Wow
Each Element could have profession bonuses within their talent trees, say a Geomancer gets more Advanced Smelting.
Nature could create wooden ammo
Water could have unlimited mana in the water etc.

Fighter Tank Assassin Ranger Caster Healer
Earth Blade-dancer StoneGaurdian Geomancer
Fire Dragon-Knight Rage-blade Pyro
Nature Feral Druid Beast Master Shaman
Air Rhonin Horse Archer Bard
Ice Viking Lich Tundra-stalker
Water Samurai Blood Knight Sea priest
Lightning Dragon lancer Flash-blade Tempest
Light Monk Paladin Cleric
Shadow Soul Reaper Night-blade Warlock

Could you clarify why you expect 64 classes to be hard to balance?

People often come to this conclusion due to a specific misunderstanding...

Jexar

Even if i trust that AOC will be swift on tuning, i think that 64 classes are too many.
Even if balanced, i think that too many classes spread the fantasy material too thin.

I also Dislike the model of altering base Spells based on secondary class, like they mentioned before with
the fighter charge turning into a blink with Mage secondary class augment.

You Make your character, choose your race, and maybe even choose a god like in FF14, only that here it will
determine your blessing, or elemental magic.

Or go astrology on this and get two blessing, a Solar and a Lunar. I would make 12 Elements with their own specs. Use the code from Birth chart websites. and offer the Option of a super unique character based on ones birth. You could get fire and water magic, and then
have 6 specs to play at endgame.

For example:
Fire Zodiacs (fire,Lightning,Light)
Water Zodiacs (Water,Ice,Death)
Earth Zodiacs (Earth, Beast,Plant)
Air Zodiacs (Air,song,Shadow)

So if i choose the god of LIGHT, as a fighter it would give me info on being a MONK, or if i wanted to tank, info about PALADIN, if i wanted to heal, CLERIC. There may be room for every role too. Giving Light MAGIC the option of even archer assassin, mage, summoner etc.
At lvl 30 for example, i would unlock my Dark Blessing(lunar), this secondary element would unlock 3 new
spec trees.
you would have to choose between 6 spec trees from two elements, providing massive customization.
The elements would be locked in at character select, but will have easy respecing.

In short:
1. Choose Race (racials, stats)
2. Choose two Gods to be born under (element 1 and 2)
3. Choose Starter role based on those offered by element (Light-->Melee DPS, Tank, Healer)all roles if possible
4. Profit

Azherae

Unfortunately I can't say that I understand the response. You clarified what you would like and what you don't like, but the only data I have on 'why is balance hard' is that you think 64 is too many to balance, is that right?

But you also appear to understand that the system is achieved by altering the base Archetypes with augments, which you disagree with, but you haven't explained if your disagreement is a personal thing or related to balance.

I also wouldn't do it the way Intrepid is doing it, but I have come to the opposite conclusion, that they are doing it that way because it is easier to balance and allows for the maximum customization and roleplay within a simple system.

Steven doesn't like 'weapons based' stat/role building, and has implied that they do not plan to take on the challenge of full Primary CLASS + Secondary CLASS balancing like FFXI sorta-does (a good call given the restrictive outcomes of that, even though I think it is possible).

So as far as I can see, the perfect solution has been chosen from the start. If your concern is only 'this is hard to balance' I'd say don't worry about it. The main concern has been 'lack of variety', not 'balance', and your method seems to offer less of that than even Ashes' theoretical outcomes, so a switch would be unlikely.

Seems like a good basis for a game with a different theme though.

insomnia

I see it more as 8 classes with different ways of augment it from secondary classes. But you can also augment it through. I see augmentation as a talent tree:
Secondary archetypes provide four potential augments.
Social organization progression.
Religion progression.
Race may also be a source of augments.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Augments

Dralay

We don't even know yet what the class is going to do. For example, the sub-classes that branch off the main may literally just be primarily aesthetic changes, with a few stat changes to the abilities. Or it could be a big change that fundamentally changes how the class plays we simply have no idea yet. And I completely disagree if you want to have a game that is replayable and stays fresh you need to have many variations.

insomnia

Dralay wrote: »

We don't even know yet what the class is going to do. For example, the sub-classes that branch off the main may literally just be primarily aesthetic changes, with a few stat changes to the abilities. Or it could be a big change that fundamentally changes how the class plays we simply have no idea yet. And I completely disagree if you want to have a game that is replayable and stays fresh you need to have many variations.

They have given some examples. F.x fighters can augment their charge. Picking a rogue class, and it can add stealth to it. Picking a mage can add teleportation to it. Another option from mage is some elemental damage to abilites. But as you say. Time will tell

Cat Quiver

Jexar wrote: »

I think that the 64 class system is too much, may be a nightmare to balance.

Water could have unlimited mana in the water

Lad

Jexar

"i think that too many classes spread the fantasy material too thin"
You have to design a mage going fighter, and a fighter going mage. So many options that i feel that
in the end the classes may feel too similar or not cool enough. Only time will tell, since we know hardly anything about their kits.

Thinking it through, I don't care much for the difficulty of balancing, or if they achieve it or not, just the fact
that 64 endgame options exist is my issue, many with uninspiring names like keeper, minstrel, strider, spellstone etc. Some combos feel forced or just not as cool, that's why i was thinking about changing a
variable, Archetypes with elements.

Vanilla wow had depth in its classes because they were balanced in a way that made you feel needed and unique. I would not go as far as vanilla did in that it had many nonviable specs.

I am fond of an MMO that are kiss/curse in their class design. Not every class needs to have everything.
This seems hard to achieve with so many options.
to my understanding, currently you pick your main class and have the option of 8 variations based on your secondary archetype.

I think it would be cool if i picked a class, and decided what elemental tree I would want to put points into while gaining spells for my main class. There would be say 8 elemental trees that would be different for every archetype. So a tank would mainly find tanking talents all throughout the 8 trees, with options to also focus on other aspects like different type of mitigation, dmg heavy builds etc.

Ive played Hunter Every wow expansion. Say i want to do the same in AOC. I would go about and quest, grind and explore. But shooting arrows can get boring. I want to explore the endless possibilities of magic and how i can use it to improve my current play style. Should I go down the Nature tree and pick up unlimited ammo, barbed/poison tipped arrows and tame beast? Air magic for Razor sharp arrows with 100% armor pen.
Shall i go down fire and add a stacking burn damage dot, should i go to frost and add a slow. Lightning for a chance of paralysis. Maybe Diamond tipped arrows from deep in the Earth tree. Maybe a Shadow arrow that will drain mana. Or a Light arrow that deals true dmg to Undead. The possibilities are endless with how elements can interact with lore, Religion, exploration etc.

I personally find Augments boring, like the tripod system in Lost ark. Give me more spells to fill my needs,
instead if having to alter the same ones. If I'm a fighter and i want to feel more like a mage, i don't want my
charge turning into a blink, give me the raw destructive power of the elements, and let me add that to my kit.

2cents

Dygz

Um. What?
It's a Mage with some Fighter components added to Mage Active Skills.
Also, there is a Fighter with some Mage components added to Fighter Active Skills.
The primary balance is on the Primary Archetype.

You don't even understand how augments work.
And you haven't seen any in action, so... there is no way for you to know if they are boring.
Don't fix what ain't broke.

I think what you describe as Hunter is a Scion in Ashes. Ranger Primary Archetype with Mage Secondary Archetype.
Your Scion would be focused on adding Mage Elemental School augments onto Ranger Active Skills.

Scouts would be the ones using Shadow Arrows and Bleed/Poison Arrows. Rogue augments on Ranger Active Skills.
Soulbows would be the ones using Holy Arrows. Cleric augments on Ranger Active Skills.

What you call "elements" are already covered by augments.
There are also Religious augments, Racial augments and Social Org augments.
As well as Node Type augments and Naval augments.

Mag7spy

I trust the devs to be honest, ill see what happens before I judge that they can't do it. They will also show it and get feedback, have some faith instead of trying to say another idea that is completely different before even seeing what they do.

Jexar

Currently they have a passive and an active talent tree for each Archetype, will we get a new tree with the lvl 35 final class? or is it just augmenting all the way?

"Your Scion would be focused on adding Mage Elemental School augments onto Ranger Active Skills"

Still think it is boring, I don't want my magic to be a watered down version of another classes kit/spells.
I think fantasy wise, it makes more sense to have limited schools of magic imo.

Give me spells like Arcane shot, fits the scion theme, but has a lot of lore packed into it. Trolls becoming night elves through Arcane Magic. It not just o hey, lets add some mage stuff to my arrow. Lets add some rogue stuff to my arrow.

My original idea would make the elements the class, and the archetypes the spec and if possible offer all 8 archetypes as an options as specs. This would make me feel more unique then just finding the highest dps Ranger Combination. Its SCION? ok, scion it is. Or maybe, i chose say fire, and im hard stuck with it since day one, this means by endgame, i will feel unique in that i will be the only fire archer providing the team with x. Instead of just swapping my archer to w/e combo is the highest dps.

Obviously no one knows whats coming, That is why one puts everything on the table as early as possible.

nidriks

Would anyone like to consider that the classes don't need excessive balance? Ashes is a game built from the ground up to be a massively social experience over a solo experience. If you're a cleric and can't fight a mage then maybe you need help.

Anyway, I'm not sure I agree it's hard to balance 64 classes. Intrepid are really balancing 8 archetypes. I can't see how 8 balanced primary archetypes can create a vastly unbalanced final class. In the unlikely event that it does I would suspect any of the 64 classes that is vastly more powerful to be easy to spot and fix.

In any event, and this is no disregard of any ideas, I think it's a bit late in development of Ashes to suggest a new class system. Perhaps the addition of environmental augments is something that could be added along the line in the form of an expansion.

Dygz

Each Secondary Archetype has 4 Schools of augments. It might be a new tree that desplays those augments.
We haven't seen the UI for that.

I have no clue why your Elemental arrows are awesome but the Ashes Elementaal arrows are boring.
Seems to be a you problem rather than a game problem.

Ashes has imited Schools of magic. Augment Schools.
Pretty sure Augment Schools have plenty of lore packed in.

Jexar

augment schools

B_B_Z

I can barely choose dinner of a 20 item menu and now I am expected to pick 1 class out of 64.... for people who like to try many different classes like myself this is an absolute nightmare.

Dygz

You can switch Secondary Archetype.
Alts are a thing.

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