Curious of people's opinions of group boss fights and action combat

Hey all! Just wanna start off saying the progression on combat this stream has looked awesome and a massive step up from what we've seen before. That being said, I'm curious how people feel about specifically group based boss fights using the combat shown, and just with action combat in general.

I've at least messed around with pretty much every decent-sized MMO released in the last 15 years and I've experienced a lot of different combat systems, and I usually fall back into preferring tab target combat despite many amazing action combat systems I've played around with. A big reason for this is group sized boss fights. I've found bosses almost universally awkward or boring with action combat, the fights reduced to flailing and bumping up against the bosses hitbox while occasionally dashing/dodging/whatever to the side or back away from an attack, then moving right back in to continue flailing. I think the inherent movement that exists within most attacks in an action combat system might be mostly to blame for that feeling.

Taking BDO as an example because I constantly see people praising that combat. And rightly so, the fluid movement and abilities makes taking on groups of enemies or constantly moving targets extremely fun. It allows you to both position and attack as you move through enemies or between packs. In PVP as well, it makes chasing, dodging, and doing damage very skillful and engaging. Fighting any kind of boss though, the same abilities that you're normally using to move around the field as you attack just end up making you repeatedly move up against the side of the boss, or awkwardly back and forth across its hitbox. When I contrast that combat experience with that of one of the currently popular tab target games like WoW or FFXIV it just never seems to get close to the mechanical depth those fights can provide.

Basically, I've always found tab target to be a very solid option for every type of engagement in an MMO, and action combat exceedingly fun in certain situations while being very lackluster in others. I'm curious what people think about this, do you agree with my experience? If so, do you think lackluster action bosses are just a failure of design in these other games, or is the system itself to blame? And if not, I'd be super interested to hear about games you think did action combat that worked well in every aspect of engagement from group bosses/raids, to world mobs and PVP so I can check out some videos. Thanks for reading!

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AidanKD

I think we are still missing alot of information to determine exactly the full extent of what combat will be. In New World for example, auto attacks are able to be a large potion of the damage and with the weapon skill trees I expect auto attacks in Ashes to have an impact, so you want to be hitting the boss with them.

But I also think that characters in this game will have alot more abilities - at least i think so given the bar they usually have at the bottom of the video! If we can expect around 10 abilities lets say, then there are going to be a bunch of rotational damage abilities we can combo off, as well as the situationals i.e. cc/mobility.

It's perfectly possible to make an action combat boss engaging - see all the dark souls/dragons dogma games. Those should be the inspiration - but apply that to a group format. You can have the kind of mechanics you get in WoW/FFIV and even Lost Ark did a decent job when it came to bosses - those were pretty extreme.

So I don't think action is inherently at fault, it's down to the game developers to design the encounter in a way that it can maximise the tools that an action combat player has at their disposal.

Azherae

I will offer only that I find fighting this enjoyable regardless of how many people are there, aside from the fact that it obviously dies much faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ecoGuROe8I

Short video used for those who don't care much. I'm sure interested persons can find longer ones.

I consider only 3 BDO bosses to actually require focus of this type and offer this level of engagement, and of those, this one is the 'best' to me.

I also like the mechanical depth of Tab Target games, particularly the very complex encounters, but I find that Katzvariak can get close, and given maybe 3 more abilities, would be suitable for up to 24-person content.

Arkson

AidanKD wrote: »

I think we are still missing alot of information to determine exactly the full extent of what combat will be. In New World for example, auto attacks are able to be a large potion of the damage and with the weapon skill trees I expect auto attacks in Ashes to have an impact, so you want to be hitting the boss with them.

But I also think that characters in this game will have alot more abilities - at least i think so given the bar they usually have at the bottom of the video! If we can expect around 10 abilities lets say, then there are going to be a bunch of rotational damage abilities we can combo off, as well as the situationals i.e. cc/mobility.

It's perfectly possible to make an action combat boss engaging - see all the dark souls/dragons dogma games. Those should be the inspiration - but apply that to a group format. You can have the kind of mechanics you get in WoW/FFIV and even Lost Ark did a decent job when it came to bosses - those were pretty extreme.

So I don't think action is inherently at fault, it's down to the game developers to design the encounter in a way that it can maximise the tools that an action combat player has at their disposal.

Oh for sure there's a lot about ashes combat in particular we don't know yet! And I totally agree that with the number of abilities that it sounds like we'll have it may just end up being a non-issue.

Taking the souls games as an example though, the combat to me there feels incredible but it feels incredible because the boss and its movements are solely focused on you. The second you start adding even one summon the feeling completely changes.

ashesplayer123

Both tab targeting and action combat have it's flaws and strengths, that's why the team settled with a HYBRID system, which has (hopefully) the best of both worlds. There will be a wide variety of camera options, and even the abilities themselves have these different properties.

For example a Fireball is a tab target spell, but the Prismatic Beam spell will actually require you to aim.
Hard CCs may be housed in action oriented skills as well, because they are skill shots that are more difficult to land (so not tab target, you will have to aim).
Soft CC's on the other hand are in the tab-targeted abilities.

This hybrid system was confirmed again earlier today, because watching the stream some people assumed the game is going full action combat.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat_targeting
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fireball
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Prismatic_Beam
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crowd_control

Arkson

Norkore wrote: »

Both tab targeting and action combat have it's flaws and strengths, that's why the team settled with a HYBRID system, which has (hopefully) the best of both worlds. There will be a wide variety of camera options, and even the abilities themselves have these different properties.

For example a Fireball is a tab target spell, but the Prismatic Beam spell will actually require you to aim.
Hard CCs may be housed in action oriented skills as well, because they are skill shots that are more difficult to land (so not tab target, you will have to aim).
Soft CC's on the other hand are in the tab-targeted abilities.

This hybrid system was confirmed again earlier today, because watching the stream some people assumed the game is going full action combat.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat_targeting
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fireball
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Prismatic_Beam
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crowd_control

Sorry, I probably should have made it clear that I totally understand the hybrid system intention when I made the post. But with the fact that the basic attack is inherently action no matter which mode you're in I think it's safe to say there will be a good bit of the action model in everyone's gameplay even if you focus yourself more to tab target.

Noaani

My opinion basically comes down to tab target being more versatile in terms of the variety it can offer in regards to encounters.

BDO is actually a good example of this. The game is (since it has already been mentioned).

The game has exactly three encounters that offer up any challenge, and they are all largely the same.

The game is 8 years old.

The exact same can be said of Archeage. While it had some variety in that you could have land based or naval based encounters, all encounters in each group were essentially the same.

In EQ2, after 8 years, the game had roughly 400 such encounters, most of which were at least as different from each other as those three encounters in BDO are from each other.

EQ2 is not alone in this. WoW, Rift, EQ, AoC the 1st, Vanguard - these games all had/have massive variety between the encounters they each contain - variety that a tab target game simply can not match.

My assumption with Ashes is that players will gravitate towards more tab target abilities for raiding, but to more action combat abilities for PvP. It is my opinion that this may force Intrepid to eventually make respec'ing your character easier - to the point where it is viable to do so twice in one day. My personal hope for this is the addition of a second spec of the same class (both primary and secondary archetype) that players can switch between on the fly.

ashesplayer123

Arkson wrote: »

Norkore wrote: »

Both tab targeting and action combat have it's flaws and strengths, that's why the team settled with a HYBRID system, which has (hopefully) the best of both worlds. There will be a wide variety of camera options, and even the abilities themselves have these different properties.

For example a Fireball is a tab target spell, but the Prismatic Beam spell will actually require you to aim.
Hard CCs may be housed in action oriented skills as well, because they are skill shots that are more difficult to land (so not tab target, you will have to aim).
Soft CC's on the other hand are in the tab-targeted abilities.

This hybrid system was confirmed again earlier today, because watching the stream some people assumed the game is going full action combat.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat_targeting
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fireball
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Prismatic_Beam
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crowd_control

Sorry, I probably should have made it clear that I totally understand the hybrid system intention when I made the post. But with the fact that the basic attack is inherently action no matter which mode you're in I think it's safe to say there will be a good bit of the action model in everyone's gameplay even if you focus yourself more to tab target.

why do you think basic attack is inherently action combat? To me it looked like Steven was just playing in that camera setting, and this is also further confirmed by the Wiki.

as per https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Weapons#Forward_attack_cone_.28cleaving.29

All weapons have a forward attack cone, regardless of being in tab or action mode.

Forward attack cone (cleaving)

Weapon attack cone in Alpha-1.[50]
As I attack I am hitting multiple numbers of these opponents; and that's important because all weapons, regardless of whether you are in reticle mode or tab-targeting mode will be able to have a action-based type weapon attack. Not active skill, but weapon attack.[50] – Steven Sharif

Dygz

BDO combat is horrible for MMORPGs.
NWO combat is the sweet spot for MMORPG Action Combat.

The June 2022 Combat Demo indicates we will probably want some AOE's handy for solo because combat is balanced around an 8-person group.

Doublebass

My biggest concern is that the 'hybrid' part of the system means it's action combat, but with attack animations feeling and working as if it's a tab-target system with abilities and basic attacks. Basically worst of both worlds.

Let me explain. If you looked at the preview, it looks like there's a standard autoattack combo swish swoosh chop, and it NEVER. CHANGES. It's fine for a tab target system, but for an action system i would expect more focus on actual position of swings and hit boxes of monsters and swing to matter, also more types of basic attacks (swing, vertical chop, swing with a step forward, swing with a sidestep) - emphasis on hit box and movement DURING an attack.

If you get an action combat only in name - you don't target an enemy but you just park your character next to it and press the 'attack' button many times, it's going to be disappointing. Especially if your character is movement locked while doing any kind of attack, which is atrocious. The tab target mmo's melee classes can all move while hitting you with an ability, if an ACTION combat system didn't have that, and had it developed deeper, it would not be what i'm looking for.

Dygz

Ashes doesn't have auto-attack.
The June 2022 Combat Demo showcased the Weaponmaster (Fighter/Fighter) Class Kit.
Weaponmaster Active Skills, like that golden Hammer, will be the same, regardless of which weapons are used.
Same thing for the Cleric's Castigation whip.

Arkson

Norkore wrote: »

why do you think basic attack is inherently action combat? To me it looked like Steven was just playing in that camera setting, and this is also further confirmed by the Wiki.

as per https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Weapons#Forward_attack_cone_.28cleaving.29

All weapons have a forward attack cone, regardless of being in tab or action mode.

Forward attack cone (cleaving)

Weapon attack cone in Alpha-1.[50]
As I attack I am hitting multiple numbers of these opponents; and that's important because all weapons, regardless of whether you are in reticle mode or tab-targeting mode will be able to have a action-based type weapon attack. Not active skill, but weapon attack.[50] – Steven Sharif

Well yeah, the only difference in basic attack as far as I've been aware between the two modes is the way the camera is controlled. In either mode the basic attack is an action combat type attack, you're not just targeting a mob and getting a guaranteed hit when you press the attack key. You're actively aiming the cone attack of the weapon whether you're in tab target mode or action mode. I'm not exactly sure what you mean, do you not think the basic attack is action combat? I'd definitely say it is.

Mag7spy

Dygz wrote: »

BDO combat is horrible for MMORPGs.
NWO combat is the sweet spot for MMORPG Action Combat.

The June 2022 Combat Demo indicates we will probably want some AOE's handy for solo because combat is balanced around an 8-person group.

Agreed nwo did things right and felt good, BDO is not designed for group content, its designed to run around and tap aoes on mobs mindlessly. So BDO though you can force group content its not really designed for it to be overly engaging.

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