Absolutely loved the combat direction - But we need to Test before giving proper feedback.

I really liked the direction they are going with a more fast-paced tactile combat for weapon attacks and movement, my main concern now is that they Don't change direction again for the few that will always find something to complain about, but just move forward and continue on this path.

However, I am having a hard time understanding the process of all this.... Steven himself said on the discord: "In today’s stream we focused on the “look and feel (...)”. But how can we provide actual feedback on the combat "feel" if we don't get to test it?

I think it is crucial that if intrepid want proper feedback on their combat, they need to get their A1 or A2 backers and let them test, put in an NDA, call it "pre-alpha 2 spot testing" and let people provide valuable feedback on the combat, it's hard to judge any system just based on a video, especially combat.

I also hope intrepid stops with this approach of trying to keep information close to their chest, and just Be transparent, tell us what are your plans, explain what you are showcasing, talk about the weapons, the active blocking, the direction you are taking - Steven shouldn't have to come to the discord to explain they are still doing hybrid After a live stream about combat....

Alpha 2 is not the release of the game, we know for years that there are things that they can not keep a secret, that's the price we are willing to pay to have a Good game, and Intrepid should not be more worried about not "spoiling" the experience for an Alpha than being transparent and allowing people to know and test their systems IF they actually want our feedback.

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Dygz

Why not both?
Give some feedback now...or don't.
We will also give feedback during Alpha 2.

Liniker

Otr wrote: »

Many things will change during alpha. I think will be long too.

Hopefully, not the core established things... this game needs to launch before the money runs out. They need to get their combat in a direction that it Doesn't have to change ever again, it's 5 years into development and we are talking about Basic weapon attacks..... we need to give the feedback, they need to make decisions, and move on, we can't be half way through alpha 2 and still fundamentally changing how combat works.

AidanKD

Its worth saying that basic attacks are not as simple as autos in other games. Once the feel is sorted we then have the weapon tree and it will also have some connection with the class active skills. I guess my point is while what we saw is pretty basic, there will be more depth to it.

On the main topic though, all feedback is good feedback. Spend one stream to get feedback. Just take on board feedback for a week and start iterations. Result, hopefully improved product.

This is an mmo with some ambition so 6 years development now isnt so unusual and another 2 more or higher won't be farfetched

Liniker

AidanKD wrote: »

On the main topic though, all feedback is good feedback

After a quick look over these forums, I can completely disagree with that... feedback from people that have no idea what they are talking about and don't understand how systems work before asking for changes is not only useless but can hurt the project

Dygz

Can't really hurt the project all that much.
It's pretty clear when people who don't know much are asking for silly stuff.
The devs won't just blindy follow suggestions.
There's a reason why Steven only hires people who have worked on and played previous MMORPGs.

Liniker

Dygz wrote: »

Can't really hurt the project all that much.
It's pretty clear when people who don't know much are asking for silly stuff.
The devs won't just blindy follow suggestions.
There's a reason why Steven only hires people who have worked on and played previous MMORPGs.

I would agree with you, but then I remember that they originally planned on doing tab target, due to feedback they decided to do hybrid and back in 2019 we had split body movement for basic attacks, they listened to feedback and went for root motion, and then listen to feedback again and went to split body during A1, and now 2022 they are asking feedback again on the new split body/root motion combat

5 years into development and basic attacks and movement are still changing at their core, doesn't seem like they are really that experienced and confident about it.

I hope they don't change it again, even if there's feedback asking for changes, we need to move on, IMO it looks really good, and is the right direction to take.

Dygz

I don't remember that.
I'm pretty sure they've been saying hybrid combat since Kickstarter.
It's been at least since October 2017, for sure.
Pretty sure they had hybrid combat at PAX West 2017.
So...I dunno what feedback you mean.

Do you have a quote for tab-only combat?

Solvryn

Liniker wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Can't really hurt the project all that much.
It's pretty clear when people who don't know much are asking for silly stuff.
The devs won't just blindy follow suggestions.
There's a reason why Steven only hires people who have worked on and played previous MMORPGs.

I would agree with you, but then I remember that they originally planned on doing tab target, due to feedback they decided to do hybrid and back in 2019 we had split body movement for basic attacks, they listened to feedback and went for root motion, and then listen to feedback again and went to split body during A1, and now 2022 they are asking feedback again on the new split body/root motion combat

5 years into development and basic attacks and movement are still changing at their core, doesn't seem like they are really that experienced and confident about it.

I hope they don't change it again, even if there's feedback asking for changes, we need to move on, IMO it looks really good, and is the right direction to take.

I agree, some people don’t even know what tab or action means, it’s not up for interpretation.

It’s annoying to unpack arguments like WoW is tab target or ESO is action combat, because neither are true.

They’re hybrids that scale more towards action or tab.

Saying tab targeting is annoying too, because people think it’s an actual system, it’s not. It’s part of a system.

Most people have no context to how art is assigned to a variable and how it behaves in a 3d space.

I do agree combat is going in the right direction as well.

GodGrid

I agree, it will be hard to give feedback on the "feel" of something we personally have not tested. There are many instances where a game looks fluid but plays stiff and vice versa. Spot testing helped alpha one so I don't see a reason on why they won't do spot testing for alpha two

TheHiddenDaggerInn

I couldn't agree more with the OP more than I do. I would like to see Steven utilize his at least Aplha 1 people more, we've been sitting there for a year with no spot tests which hhas becoming very tiresome. There has to be something for A1 testers to do? If PI is in there then I think it's time for A1 to get in there and help where they can and prepare the Alpha 2.

So many of these things could use testing before A2 and finding it hard to believe there isn't something we could be assisting with.

Noaani

Liniker wrote: »

I would agree with you, but then I remember that they originally planned on doing tab target, due to feedback they decided to do hybrid

@Liniker

Ashes has been hybrid since it's inception.

Here is a link from 2017 where Steven is talking about players being able to pick between tab target oriented skills, or action oriented skills.

The rest of your post is equally misinformed, I just aren't going to bother with finding you links to prove it.

Edit to add; you should take the fact that I took the time out to actually link my point to mean that you are VERY wrong here. I usually don't bother, as I am not your assistant. However, you were so incorrect that I felt the need to set the record straight immediately upon reading your post so that no one else reads it and assumes you are correct.

Dygz

We won't be spot-testing Alpha 1 at this late date.

Liniker

Noaani wrote: »

Edit to add; you should take the fact that I took the time out to actually link my point to mean that you are VERY wrong here. I usually don't bother, as I am not your assistant. However, you were so incorrect that I felt the need to set the record straight immediately upon reading your post so that no one else reads it and assumes you are correct.

I appreciate you taking the time to get the quote, I made a quick edit on that one sentence, but that didn't change at all the whole point on my message, now, explain to me, how I am "VERY" wrong here in what I'm trying to say here and how the rest of my post is equally misinformed? lol

akabear

To the OP, there is a considerable amount of content that could be commented up without hands-on testing.

Perhaps have a shot at some constructive feedback.. your opener, "Absolutely loved the combat direction.." was left without any content.

Perhaps your Why/How/Which etc... as something get discussion going.

Liniker

akabear wrote: »

To the OP, there is a considerable amount of content that could be commented up without hands-on testing.

Perhaps have a shot at some constructive feedback.. your opener, "Absolutely loved the combat direction.." was left without any content.

Perhaps your Why/How/Which etc... as something get discussion going.

Oh that was the first thing I did after the livestream as always, on their own thread, if they ask feedback I will always be there to provide, I just think it could be beneficial in case they want meaningful feedback, to get the testers in before they move on and build upon the combat for alpha 2

Voxtrium

Yes we need to test to give proper feedback but I doubt we have any real idea as to the financial situation of Intrepid Studios others than blind number crunching of averages. So to say they need to do anything in regards to development speed based on the idea its because of their finances is silly, Alpha 2 is being designed to have the core of the game implemented by the END of alpha 2, ie they will be taking alpha 2 players feedback to determine what they need to do.

Noaani

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Edit to add; you should take the fact that I took the time out to actually link my point to mean that you are VERY wrong here. I usually don't bother, as I am not your assistant. However, you were so incorrect that I felt the need to set the record straight immediately upon reading your post so that no one else reads it and assumes you are correct.

I appreciate you taking the time to get the quote, I made a quick edit on that one sentence, but that didn't change at all the whole point on my message, now, explain to me, how I am "VERY" wrong here in what I'm trying to say here and how the rest of my post is equally misinformed? lol

The split body/root motion, Intrepid never really had a preference. They implemented both as a trial of each (many games implement two versions of a system to see which they prefer), asked players about it, and eventually decided to take parts from each.

There was never the switching between them as you claim, it was simply a decision making process - and the eventual decision was to use both.

This is the downside of open development. Sometimes people see something that is still in the decision making process and think that because we are seeing it, the decision must be made.

3 or 4 years in to development (active development didn't really start until 2019) and Intrepid are closer to a finished combat system than ESO had 5 years in.

I have no problem with the OP at all, just the post I quoted that contained misinformation.

Liniker

Noaani wrote: »

I have no problem with the OP at all, just the post I quoted that contained misinformation.

That's fair, I appreciate your input Noaani

Enigmatic Sage

nvm misread something, edited post.

Liniker

Voxtrium wrote: »

Yes we need to test to give proper feedback but I doubt we have any real idea as to the financial situation of Intrepid Studios others than blind number crunching of averages. So to say they need to do anything in regards to development speed based on the idea its because of their finances is silly, Alpha 2 is being designed to have the core of the game implemented by the END of alpha 2, ie they will be taking alpha 2 players feedback to determine what they need to do.

Well, we know they are not doing voice acting due to the cost of it, and they hired a foreign team to deal with the website (which is a lot cheaper) so they clearly don't have the money to do everything they would like, and we also know steven originally planned on putting in a lot less money and staff members to complete the game by 2020, and they have exceeded that, so I think it's safe to assume they want to get this released sometime "soon", the "it's ready when it's ready" can't go on forever

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