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Mob threat communication

Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Building upon Stevens point about no knowing where the threat lies in the environment

In addition, do not tell me the level of any mob
I do not want to know how dangerous an encounter is before trying myself
It spoils the risk vs reward experience of the world by throwing my curiosity out the window
I should gage the risk by the visual appearance and then decide if I should bite and engage

Why take threat assessment away from the players?

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    SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2022
    Generally, the reason this is done is that you cannot visually tell how dangerous a creature is due to the way video games work. The same model and enemy type could appear in multiple locations at wildly different strength levels, so players can't learn how strong a 'standard-looking rock golem' should be. They also can't always know whether the 'standard looking rock golem' is at the higher or lower end of the threat range for a given area, even if they have fought other things nearby and are aware of what that general threat range is.

    While "I want to be forced to risk death every time I see a new creature, or the same creature in a new area, even if I have a general idea of the area difficulty" is something that you may be into, I'm not so sure I agree, and it seems like a topic where there will be a reasonably broad spectrum of opinions. I want at least a relative strength indication of some form. The color shift used in Alpha 1 worked for this, as well as perhaps a name size shift for elite enemies. (While Alpha 1 also showed enemy levels outright, that's not the part I'm talking about.)

    The other thing that I feel is important to consider is this: Only in a poorly-designed game, or one intended to be relatively easy or flat, is "this target's level vs my own" the only meaningful factor in determining challenge. In any decent game, you will find opponents that are more or less difficult for your specific class and build, based on that specific opponent's own design. In a good game, you should be able to understand, based on seeing an enemy, even if its a new subtype (or even sometimes, type), generally how it is likely to fight, and reason about what that means relative to your own combat style, but still have the possibility to be surprised by an unfamiliar creature type, or that the ones here have a new ability that changes the fight.

    I feel that this is the more appropriate way to exercise players personal threat assessment skills. A game where you learn your strengths and weaknesses, as well as those of various enemies, identify your 'favored prey' and 'archnemesis' mob families, and, when walking into a new area, make decisions based on the situations, the positions and spread of enemies, and personal understanding of the world's ecology and your place in it, while having the ability to both learn, and be surprised sometimes, is far more engaging than one where the only thing that matters is "what level, exactly, is on any random enemy's nameplate". And in my opinion, having a general understanding of an enemy's relative (not exact) level, makes that more effective, not less.
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    CawwCaww Member
    UI option for mob info please, turn-off if you don't like.
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    NiKrNiKr Member
    Allegedly there could be super high lvl mobs close to low lvl mobs, due to how the Node system will work. So, by not having any threat indicators for mobs, you might be dooming most lowbies/newbies to constant dying against mobs (cause the mobs might be so strong that they one-shot the player). And now you're not only alienating your more casual playerbase with pvp, but with pve too. And as much as I agree with the "risk vs reward" in the open world, I'm not sure if completely obliviousness is the best way to go about it. Tell me the threat of a mob and then let me decide whether I wanna risk my life for that higher reward.
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    Cat QuiverCat Quiver Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I should gage the risk by the visual appearance and then decide if I should bite and engage
    And what would you do if a copy pasted mob you saw at level 3 showed back up with the same appearance but it's level 55. If markings are put on mobs to distinguish their level or threat it's the same exact thing as showing the level but with extra redundant steps.
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    Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    Cat Quiver wrote: »
    I should gage the risk by the visual appearance and then decide if I should bite and engage
    And what would you do if a copy pasted mob you saw at level 3 showed back up with the same appearance but it's level 55. If markings are put on mobs to distinguish their level or threat it's the same exact thing as showing the level but with extra redundant steps.

    repeating mobs?
    that just sounds like a lazy game design which should be avoided in an innovative game as ashes
    It's funny how prevalent this argument is, it only shows how primitive the genre is but I don't blame you...
    NiKr wrote: »
    Allegedly there could be super high lvl mobs close to low lvl mobs, due to how the Node system will work. So, by not having any threat indicators for mobs, you might be dooming most lowbies/newbies to constant dying against mobs (cause the mobs might be so strong that they one-shot the player). And now you're not only alienating your more casual playerbase with pvp, but with pve too. And as much as I agree with the "risk vs reward" in the open world, I'm not sure if completely obliviousness is the best way to go about it. Tell me the threat of a mob and then let me decide whether I wanna risk my life for that higher reward.

    valid point but I don't think the gap between mobs would be so high that you couldn't differentiate by appearance

    A small cute bug shouldn't be more dangerous than a huge troll with a club
    There should be some sense of hierarchy the players could navigate without blatantly revealing too much
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    NiKrNiKr Member
    A small cute bug shouldn't be more dangerous than a huge troll with a club
    There should be some sense of hierarchy the players could navigate without blatantly revealing too much
    That's just limited shitty design. I want strong small bugs and I want dumb weak big trolls. Just showing you whether a mob is way higher than you in lvl or lower (or same) gives a much wider design space to the devs.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    I mean... some small, cute bugs are deathly venomous.
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    Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dygz wrote: »
    I mean... some small, cute bugs are deathly venomous.

    exactly, and wouldn't you want to discover which is which for yourself?
    why have a number next to it that tells the whole story without even interacting?
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    Cat QuiverCat Quiver Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    repeating mobs?
    that just sounds like a lazy game design which should be avoided in an innovative game as ashes
    Uh.. welcome to mmos. "lazy game design" for what a basic system that's not broken just to be different? Majority of people don't want to consult a compendium for trash mob #679 that will die or kill the player in two seconds otherwise it could have easily been a thing long ago.

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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    I mean... some small, cute bugs are deathly venomous.

    exactly, and wouldn't you want to discover which is which for yourself?
    why have a number next to it that tells the whole story without even interacting?
    I'd prefer to know the levels when I see a mob rather than needing to keep wasting my time banging on mobs that it's impossible for me to kill.
    Level does not tell the whole story.

    You can turn mob levels off if you want to.
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    CROW3CROW3 Member
    edited July 2022
    @Dygz - Would you prefer levels to con color?
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Could be something besides those options.
    Before New World, I was saying mini-maps are a necessity, but, I love the NW compass.
    Recognizable indicators - I probably don't care about the specific symbology as long as they work as intended.
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    edited July 2022
    i think that most of the solutions that are "solved" with an option to toggle it on or off doesn't really solve anything, it just ignores the issue at hand in hopes it solves itself. Once gamers realise how to optimise and manipulate the feature to their advantage and eventual mechanic abuse, it just creates more conflict in the long run. Many of the toggle and use it if you want do not really translate to fair gameplay. Many things for example such as being able to zoom out so far you're essentially playing as a crane operator where the game looks like a 2D map from above. I'm not saying dont let people zoom out, but make the allowance within reasons to prevent disadvantages to fair gameplay.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    I don'treay understand what that is supposed to mean.
    Threat assessment is not a problem that needs solving.
    If you want more challenge by turning off UI elements, go for it.
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    edited July 2022
    I generally like the element of surprise they're going for with environment exploration and threats. As for normal/elite/rare, I would prefer a visual appearance to the mob over an icon but I would be impartial to having both. Is that the alpha of the mobs? cool! show it with some epic flair or combat mechanics unique to it being the alpha :smile: which i believe they were kind of going for but have not mentioned much about it IIRC.

    But the idea of engaging and learning how strong the creature is? as someone who enjoys adventure games, that's interesting to me. Could be really cool but could also cause some strife over people in their comfort zones who like to assess situations more basic-like.
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    edited July 2022
    Otr wrote: »
    H
    ... Many things for example such as being able to zoom out so far you're essentially playing as a crane operator where the game looks like a 2D map from above. I'm not saying dont let people zoom out, but make the allowance within reasons to prevent disadvantages to fair gameplay.
    That's what makes me want to select all my alts and right click on the enemy. :smile:

    LOL
    I mean there are those who prefer to play that way and situations that rise but there needs to be a fair limitation. I generally adjust my camera based on the situation for some different mechanics, all I'm saying is make it relatively fair within reason. People don't need to zoom out and see over walls, or able to have a 360 view with a vast range so they can avoid immersive mechanics that makes the combat and gameplay engaging.
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    TyphanonTyphanon Member
    edited July 2022
    The way I like to see it done is to change the colour of some part in the nameplate or unit frame based on the difference in you and your enemy's level.
    Eg.
    3 or more levels lower than you = Grey
    Within 3 levels of you = Plain (white or black)
    3 or more levels higher than you = Red

    just a basic, immersive, but useful indication
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    edited July 2022
    Otr wrote: »
    . People don't need to zoom out and see over walls, or able to have a 360 view with a vast range so they can avoid immersive mechanics that makes the combat and gameplay engaging.
    Some people want to play first person for immersion and avoid 3rd person games.
    I can adapt to many styles so I enjoy all kind of games.
    So if I do not see mob strenght, I'll be afraid a bit but that would be fun.
    If others turn on such info, I turn on too, to not be at disadvantage. The option will make little sense unless solo gameplay is possible.
    I think Ashes of Creation will not be a solo friendly game, when exploring areas with enemy NPCs because some other player might help them win.

    I play many genre's and game types as well. It's not a matter of I should toggle the feature on as well to not be at a disadvantage. Adaption is not the issue I was addressing. As mentioned toggle features don't really solve anything, it ignores issues and will eventually evolve to games abusing mechanics if not addressed accordingly which leads to toxic gameplay with a lack of fair play.

    You don't want to jeopardise the games integrity with its intent of how it's supposed to be played by allowing an unnecessary options to be toggled so players can create toxic gameplays through feature abuse.
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    Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    I mean... some small, cute bugs are deathly venomous.

    exactly, and wouldn't you want to discover which is which for yourself?
    why have a number next to it that tells the whole story without even interacting?
    I'd prefer to know the levels when I see a mob rather than needing to keep wasting my time banging on mobs that it's impossible for me to kill.
    Level does not tell the whole story.

    You can turn mob levels off if you want to.

    Well but that's not really how this plays out
    First of all by nature you will memorize and learn with time to recognizer the mobs and their threat based on past experience
    Secondly, even when you engage with a new mob you get an idea of it's "level" by their hp pool and how much damage you deal to it even from afar before taking any damage and you can always disengage and flee away until next time

    imo it keeps things fresh and adds another layer for the players to experience the same way hiding the mobs in the environment and "surprising" you when you explore. obviously after a few times it will no longer surprise anyone but still adds that extra element to that feeling of a living dangerous world

    What's the fun in knowing the end of the story right away?
    Why should a number next to it's name spoil all the fun of discoverability?
    Let me find out during the encounter itself if I'm capable enough or not yet
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    Well but that's not really how this plays out
    First of all by nature you will memorize and learn with time to recognizer the mobs and their threat based on past experience
    Secondly, even when you engage with a new mob you get an idea of it's "level" by their hp pool and how much damage you deal to it even from afar before taking any damage and you can always disengage and flee away until next time
    That might be true in a static MMORPG.
    Although, it's fairly typical to be fighting a mob that is equal to your level, only to encounter a version that looks the same but is a level or two higher. Sometimes elite versions of the mob look the same and you only know it's elite by seeing an asterix next to the nameplate.

    But, also, in Ashes, new mobs appear in the same region as Nodes progress, so... it's not like we can just memorize region levels.

    And, Ashes, doesn't really have reconizable health pools.
    Like I already said, I don't want to have to waste time banging on a mob that is out of my league - disengaiing and fleeing and then returning. I want to know before I engage that it would be a waste of my time to attack.


    imo it keeps things fresh and adds another layer for the players to experience the same way hiding the mobs in the environment and "surprising" you when you explore. obviously after a few times it will no longer surprise anyone but still adds that extra element to that feeling of a living dangerous world.
    Sure. And people who don't mind eatiing ghost peppers might not care about seeing a scoville chart.
    People who don't want to find out the heat by eating a pepper will want to see a scoville chart first.


    What's the fun in knowing the end of the story right away?
    Why should a number next to it's name spoil all the fun of discoverability?
    Let me find out during the encounter itself if I'm capable enough or not yet
    You asked tis before and I told you that the level does not tell the whole story.
    Level just tells you that at your level, you should b able to find a way to defeat your foe.
    It doesn't tell you the strengths and weaknesses of your opponent.
    It doesn't tell you the abilities and tactics it will use.
    It basically just tells you:
    The mob is so far below you, you won't get much xp - waste of time.
    The mob is equal to your level, so you should be able to find a way to defeat it.
    The mob is so far above your level that you can't defeat it until you can some more levels.

    The game lets you turn off UI elements if you don't want to take advantage of threat assessment guides.
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