[suggestion] Alternative to active blocking as damage mitigation

There's been a few threads recently discussing the showcased Active Blocking and how best it should be implemented. I'd like to quickly state my concerns and offer some loosely theorized and potentially idealistic solutions.

An issue I perceive with active blocking being used solely as a means for damage mitigation is that it may follow suit with some other MMO's and lead to overly simplistic/boring gameplay. Having the option to actively mitigate damage at any time may be intuitive, but depending on the implementation could lead to the overuse of active blocking, taking away from a more rotational and/or reactive play style.

Instead of the main use of active blocking being the reduction of incoming damage, it may be more interesting to instead focus it's main use as a way to mitigate the effects of knockdowns, knockbacks, staggers, stuns and other potential CC effects.

As example, the rock monsters from the latest showcase had a highly telegraphed attack that knocked the character backwards on hit. If the active block were to lessen the effects of the knockback it would become an alternative to the previously mandatory dodge/sidestep and would allow the character a quicker reprisal.

A weapons effectiveness at mitigating various types of CC could potentially be based on it's speed weighting, with shields being the most effective and light weapons such as daggers having a minimal affect on the duration of CC. This diversity in recovery time between weapons could allow for tanks to fulfill niche roles during group mechanics, as they would be back in the fight quicker compared to their more vulnerable party members. This would also create an interesting balance between speed and survivability.

In regards to PvP I see this creating a rock paper scissors style of combat where tanks may more easily defeat a CC orientated class but be susceptible to a class with higher burst damage.

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Comments

George_Black

I dont understand why people attack active blocking and suggest alternatives, overlooking the fact that it is the most satisfying action a shield user can perform.

It is the iconic move of warriors using sword and shield and you want to change it because it's "op" and "boring"?

How about only shield users can perform the action? How about this becomes the starting point: maintain playstyle identity, instead of demanding homogenization and then have the nerve to talk about "boring" gameplay.
Then talk about ways to mitigate dmg.

Active blocking should be a class/weapon restricted action for weapons that can block an incoming attack, like the shield, the greatsword and the spear. That is... if you trully want interesting gameplay and not "play as you want" and "everybody can do everything with everything".

Mag7spy

Active blokcing with a sword is like some star wars stuff its bad ass. Its the people that dont want to do anything active and want everything to be automatic and only stats. Which to me that is boring, id rather have active and stats.

CROW3

George_Black wrote: »

I dont understand why people attack active blocking and suggest alternatives, overlooking the fact that it is the most satisfying action a shield user can perform.

I disagree. Shield bashing another player off a cliff is the most satisfying action a shield user can perform.

Active block may be 2nd...

Elder

George_Black wrote: »

I dont understand why people attack active blocking and suggest alternatives, overlooking the fact that it is the most satisfying action a shield user can perform.

It is the iconic move of warriors using sword and shield and you want to change it because it's "op" and "boring"?

How about only shield users can perform the action? How about this becomes the starting point: maintain playstyle identity, instead of demanding homogenization and then have the nerve to talk about "boring" gameplay.
Then talk about ways to mitigate dmg.

Active blocking should be a class/weapon restricted action for weapons that can block an incoming attack, like the shield, the greatsword and the spear. That is... if you trully want interesting gameplay and not "play as you want" and "everybody can do everything with everything".

I'm not attacking active blocking or suggesting an alternative to active blocking. I don't think you read my post thoroughly.

I'm suggesting active blocking in a way that would reduce the effects of CC but potentially have less damage mitigation.

AidanKD

My only concern with this is that if the sole purpose of active block in this case is having to reactively block specific skills, then the skillcheck to use it is going to be very high. I think shields for the most should rank more an an "easy to use" and "hard to master" in terms of it performs its basic function well, but still has somewhat of a ceiling (i,e, if you time your block then it maybe staggers your opponent/interrupts their combo).

Elder

AidanKD wrote: »

My only concern with this is that if the sole purpose of active block in this case is having to reactively block specific skills, then the skillcheck to use it is going to be very high. I think shields for the most should rank more an an "easy to use" and "hard to master" in terms of it performs its basic function well, but still has somewhat of a ceiling (i,e, if you time your block then it maybe staggers your opponent/interrupts their combo).

I'm not sure I agree with it being too high of a skill check for a few reasons.

The telegraph on attacks this would apply too could be designed with the appropriate lengths and visibility required to lower barrier to entry.

Attacks that would apply a 4 second stun may potentially be more easily reacted too than attacks that would apply a 1 second stagger, making the mechanic easy to use but hard to master.

Each weapon would still have use of the active block at varied effectiveness, making it's mechanical requirements universal across all play styles, making the skill requirement transferable.

I'm not saying that active blocking shouldn't still apply some damage mitigation, just that it's main function could have a more impactful purpose.

AidanKD wrote: »

(i,e, if you time your block then it maybe staggers your opponent/interrupts their combo).

This is essential the same thing in my opinion. If you time your block well it allows a reprisal in the time you would otherwise be unable to do anything.

Lastly I'd argue that difficulty within reason isn't necessarily a bad thing.

AidanKD

@Elder I guess an important part of the skill check is really down entirely to how the system would work. I would say that when it comes to how weighty skills are/feel - if the skill's windup time is too long, then it might run the risk of being too difficult to land if everyone knows that you have a reasonable window of time to pop your active block up and negate a 20-30s cooldown crowd control. In principle and in practice are two very different things bare in mind so I know it's not so black and white.

I think I agree with elements of what you are proposing, but I think that if you consider a weapon to have a main purpose and perhaps utility i,e lets say daggers might main purpose being damage and utility being mobility, a greataxe might have main purpose damage and utility being extended range/cleave - a shield's main purpose would be damage mitigation, and the utility could be CC mitigation.

I think that the Shield's fundamental use should be for damage mitigation, with the added benefit of your proposed CC mitigation. I think that since the design of Crowd Control is very rock-paper-scissors, and Intrepid plan for the game to work in specific counters, you could probably balance this by limiting the type of CC that the shield is designed to mitigate. Maybe this could be customised in the weapon tree to allow the player to tailor their specialties. I would actually like the weapon tree to allow this kind of customisation to tailor your kit against specifics!

Dygz

Keep in mind that it looked like the Weaponmaster was able to Block with both the Sword and the Daggers, so...
Block may be a Fighter skill, rather than weapon specific.

Dygz

Mag7spy wrote: »

Active blocking with a sword is like some star wars stuff its bad ass. Its the people that dont want to do anything active and want everything to be automatic and only stats. Which to me that is boring, id rather have active and stats.

Why not both??

Elder

AidanKD wrote: »

I think I agree with elements of what you are proposing, but I think that if you consider a weapon to have a main purpose and perhaps utility i,e lets say daggers might main purpose being damage and utility being mobility, a greataxe might have main purpose damage and utility being extended range/cleave - a shield's main purpose would be damage mitigation, and the utility could be CC mitigation.

@AidanKD I think we have similar mindsets on this point. Using your examples my suggestion would equate to something similar to this. Keeping in mind at this point it's just theory crafting and not necessarily my main focus with this thread.

Daggers:
High Mobility
High Damage
Low Cleave
Low CC Reduction and damage reduction from active blocking.

Sword:
Medium Mobility
Medium Damage
Medium Cleave
Medium CC Reduction and damage mitigation from active blocking

Greataxe:
Low Mobility
Medium Damage
High Cleave
Medium CC Reduction and damage mitigation from active blocking

Sword/Shield:
Low Mobility
Medium Damage
Medium Cleave
High CC Reduction and damage mitigation from active blocking

With a low attribute being assigned a value of 1, medium a value of 2 and a high a value of 3 each weapon is distributing it's 8 potential points to create a varied array of potential specializations.

This is pretty simplistic and most likely doesn't need an explanation, I'd just like to give an example in how weapons could have a varied effectiveness in each aspect you mentioned.

Elder

Dygz wrote: »

Keep in mind that it looked like the Weaponmaster was able to Block with both the Sword and the Daggers, so...
Block may be a Fighter skill, rather than weapon specific.

I hadn't considered that. If that's that case some of my points regarding varied effectiveness of mitigation may be moot.

falcorpix

Elder wrote: »

An issue I perceive with active blocking being used solely as a means for damage mitigation is that it may follow suit with some other MMO's and lead to overly simplistic/boring gameplay. Having the option to actively mitigate damage at any time may be intuitive, but depending on the implementation could lead to the overuse of active blocking, taking away from a more rotational and/or reactive play style.

I just dont understand how people can have this opinion in regards to active blocking.

1st active blocking isnt simplistic/boring, it is dynamic/fun.
2nd id argue "taking away from a more rotational play style" is a positive not a negative, as rotational play styles are predictable and monotonous, adding active blocking to the mix breaks that rotation play style and makes it more dynamic and unpredictable.
Active blocking also makes for a more reactive play style, not less...

Elder

falcorpix wrote: »

I just dont understand how people can have this opinion in regards to active blocking.

1st active blocking isnt simplistic/boring, it is dynamic/fun.
2nd id argue "taking away from a more rotational play style" is a positive not a negative, as rotational play styles are predictable and monotonous, adding active blocking to the mix breaks that rotation play style and makes it more dynamic and unpredictable.
Active blocking also makes for a more reactive play style, not less...

1st Please don't misrepresent my point of view. I have no bias against active blocking. My point is not arguing against active blocking in any way.

2nd I'm neither arguing for a more rotational play style nor reactive play style as I but simply referenced them both possibly being impacted due to the potential for overuse of active blocking.

By all means, please read my post thoroughly and in it's entirety if you're interested.

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