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How to balance tab vs action abilities

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Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I believe that in an Action Combat system, 50% of 16-person groups could defeat a slightly toned down Jormungand. If you are willing to engage in good faith (imo you sometimes are, sometimes not, or sometimes you don't keep the same conversation target in mind that your 'opponent' does), I will explain this fight in more detail and why it may be difficult for some.
    I'd be very interested to learn about the fight, purely because it'd let me understand the pve pov better. I've got a ton of assumptions of my own, but I feel like some of them might be off base because I haven't really experienced any good mmo pve.

    The main issue with doing this is that there is in fact quite a lot to explain, some of which requires prior understanding, while not necessarily advancing this conversation.

    You could wait a month, you know this will come up again, and at some point, you're gonna get that person who doesn't go 'Uh... well this game is old so it doesn't count!'

    At which point, Ice Dragons ahoy!

    I would also love to have a real conversation about this sort of thing, but I feel like it's gonna happen one way or another, and it might be better to not have the whole thing here.

    Anyways for YOUR most basic understanding, the main framework you'd need to even know what to think about...

    The delay between Spells being cast by Jormungand is random but AVERAGES 8 seconds. Paralyze is 'random chance for ability or melee attack to fail', as well as go on CD if it was a special ability. This used to apply to EVERY ABILITY INCLUDING ULT.

    Absolute Terror is 'your character is literally frozen and cannot move, be moved, etc, for about 8 seconds'. You still take all damage. If you were mid attack when Terrored, I believe the attack finishes after. This will be super important in combination with...

    Spike Flail, which is a special TP Attack response to taking hate from a certain cone behind the dragon while it is on the ground. That's it. Doesn't require anything else other than TP Gauge and normally oneshots all light armored classes. For this dragon specifically, it hits outside of the current alliance with hate. If you are there at all you die.

    The area where you fight it is filled with enemies that aggro to spellcasting. Not 'completed spellcasting', the act of spellcasting. They are relatively powerful and must be defeated, but in the end, just adds.

    If the weather changes to Blizzard, Jormungand's attacks all become 20% stronger and additional Magic-Aggro Adds appear, these ones being somewhat resistant to physical damage. Their respawn rate is higher.

    If the person with hate tries to pull Jormungand away from his preferred spot, the dragon will instead use 'Draw In' which will deposit them right in front of Jormy's face. You can sometimes VERY slowly get him to the EDGE of the area so you don't have to watch your back.

    Hate Reset means 'set your hate value to 0'. Which means that whoever was at the highest number above you now has hate.

    Blood Weapon is not dependent on TP Gauge and can be activated whenever, because chaos. It causes Jormungand to absorb health equal to damage dealt with standard attack (bites). It has no meaningful effect when the dragon is airborne.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Yes, there'd be hazards and some aoes to step out of, but that's literally the same as tab combat, so why not just have it as tab.

    Why not have action for other aspects of the game since the game is not just large scale boss fights. I think this is what the argument boils down to. At the very least, you can make an action fight play the exact same as a tab fight.

    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Either way this is so old and dated I'd rather see more of the modern final fantasy in comparison for chaotic content. Designers just dont do that, they could, maybe there is like a .05% of content like that but im not really sure for a mmorpg. Its do able if someone wanted but you are just creating things to wipe people at that point so they don't have a chance. Im unsure if you are using the word chaotic the same as me.

    Even if you tried to make each phase random of some new kind of boss he still has attack patterns and things it does that a player will figure out and know what to expect. Like if a boss always seems to be attacking a random person but really its the person furthest back in the room and eventually you figure it out and know what to do.

    Are you talking about a boss casting something and it has a random effect on you and our party so you aren't expecting it? but eventually you would know the effects on what to do and manage overtime. Chaotic is more the first run when you don't know any of the mechanics that would be the closest thing tbh..

    So you are disengaging on this point? I am glad to.

    The fact remains that Jormungand has no pattern that you can just react to. You get some control, but the individual actions of the Dragon are mostly chaos. And that fact does not care how you feel about it nor whether or not you believe it.

    However because I am a toxic petty person I offer to everyone on this forum who needs to make this argument the ability to just 'Summon the Ice Dragon'.

    If you need to make the point, mention Jormungand and call me.

    Why does the lack of a pattern matter? What about that fight makes it impossible to do in an action system?

    I was not saying it would be impossible in an Action System. I was only offering what Mag asked for.

    I personally believe that you must get up to 10-11 things to mentally track at once before I PERSONALLY start to drop things in Action Combat, but I am aware that for others it is lower. That fact is not relevant because even if I am consistently able to do what others cannot, it would just imply that I was in the 10% or so of players Ashes expected to be able to compete in Raid content.

    I believe that in an Action Combat system, 50% of 16-person groups could defeat a slightly toned down Jormungand. If you are willing to engage in good faith (imo you sometimes are, sometimes not, or sometimes you don't keep the same conversation target in mind that your 'opponent' does), I will explain this fight in more detail and why it may be difficult for some.

    If your wish is to continue believing that you are right, I will not. I also am not accepting your usual 'one liner encouragement to continue', though, so if you actually care, you might need to 'convince' me somehow. This is by no means a request.

    Ok, what data are you basing this off of?

    If i don't come off as arguing in good faith then it's because i don't think what i'm arguing against is being made in good faith.

    You have just randomly said that 50% of a 16 person group could do this fight but who are these 16 people and why 50%?

    Are we to assume that the all 16 people could do it if the game is tab?

    Are you claiming that the 50% who couldn't do it could never learn to do it?

    Even if your scenario was true, is it proof that you can't do as much in an action system?

    This data sounds made up to me, the scenario is oddly specific, and you claim the outcome is proof of your hypothesis.

    Can you understand where i'm coming from?

    You've basically made up in your head the connection between 'Me bringing up Jormungand' and 'my hypothesis'. That's where this normally happens.

    Mag asked 'Where do you track 6-7 things? What encounters out there are even just chaos?'

    It is true that the answer to THOSE THINGS does not counter anything you said above.

    Just ignore me, ok?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Tab skills hit 100% of the time, miss chance isn't exclusive to tab target. RnG exist for both tab and action, you don't know what you are talking about.
    You don't know what you're talking about.
    Tab skills have a miss chance included in the RNG. So they do not hit 100% of the time.
    And RNG is factored in much more for Tab skills than for Action skills - per the Ashes game design.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Yes, there'd be hazards and some aoes to step out of, but that's literally the same as tab combat, so why not just have it as tab.

    Why not have action for other aspects of the game since the game is not just large scale boss fights. I think this is what the argument boils down to. At the very least, you can make an action fight play the exact same as a tab fight.

    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Either way this is so old and dated I'd rather see more of the modern final fantasy in comparison for chaotic content. Designers just dont do that, they could, maybe there is like a .05% of content like that but im not really sure for a mmorpg. Its do able if someone wanted but you are just creating things to wipe people at that point so they don't have a chance. Im unsure if you are using the word chaotic the same as me.

    Even if you tried to make each phase random of some new kind of boss he still has attack patterns and things it does that a player will figure out and know what to expect. Like if a boss always seems to be attacking a random person but really its the person furthest back in the room and eventually you figure it out and know what to do.

    Are you talking about a boss casting something and it has a random effect on you and our party so you aren't expecting it? but eventually you would know the effects on what to do and manage overtime. Chaotic is more the first run when you don't know any of the mechanics that would be the closest thing tbh..

    So you are disengaging on this point? I am glad to.

    The fact remains that Jormungand has no pattern that you can just react to. You get some control, but the individual actions of the Dragon are mostly chaos. And that fact does not care how you feel about it nor whether or not you believe it.

    However because I am a toxic petty person I offer to everyone on this forum who needs to make this argument the ability to just 'Summon the Ice Dragon'.

    If you need to make the point, mention Jormungand and call me.

    Why does the lack of a pattern matter? What about that fight makes it impossible to do in an action system?

    I was not saying it would be impossible in an Action System. I was only offering what Mag asked for.

    I personally believe that you must get up to 10-11 things to mentally track at once before I PERSONALLY start to drop things in Action Combat, but I am aware that for others it is lower. That fact is not relevant because even if I am consistently able to do what others cannot, it would just imply that I was in the 10% or so of players Ashes expected to be able to compete in Raid content.

    I believe that in an Action Combat system, 50% of 16-person groups could defeat a slightly toned down Jormungand. If you are willing to engage in good faith (imo you sometimes are, sometimes not, or sometimes you don't keep the same conversation target in mind that your 'opponent' does), I will explain this fight in more detail and why it may be difficult for some.

    If your wish is to continue believing that you are right, I will not. I also am not accepting your usual 'one liner encouragement to continue', though, so if you actually care, you might need to 'convince' me somehow. This is by no means a request.

    Ok, what data are you basing this off of?

    If i don't come off as arguing in good faith then it's because i don't think what i'm arguing against is being made in good faith.

    You have just randomly said that 50% of a 16 person group could do this fight but who are these 16 people and why 50%?

    Are we to assume that the all 16 people could do it if the game is tab?

    Are you claiming that the 50% who couldn't do it could never learn to do it?

    Even if your scenario was true, is it proof that you can't do as much in an action system?

    This data sounds made up to me, the scenario is oddly specific, and you claim the outcome is proof of your hypothesis.

    Can you understand where i'm coming from?

    You've basically made up in your head the connection between 'Me bringing up Jormungand' and 'my hypothesis'. That's where this normally happens.

    Mag asked 'Where do you track 6-7 things? What encounters out there are even just chaos?'

    It is true that the answer to THOSE THINGS does not counter anything you said above.

    Just ignore me, ok?

    I'm confused. i know i jumped in late and might have miss understood what you were arguing. I'm sorry for the headache.

    These are your words: "I believe that in an Action Combat system, 50% of 16-person groups could defeat a slightly toned down Jormungand."

    What are you trying to prove with this scenario?

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Yes, there'd be hazards and some aoes to step out of, but that's literally the same as tab combat, so why not just have it as tab.

    Why not have action for other aspects of the game since the game is not just large scale boss fights. I think this is what the argument boils down to. At the very least, you can make an action fight play the exact same as a tab fight.

    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Either way this is so old and dated I'd rather see more of the modern final fantasy in comparison for chaotic content. Designers just dont do that, they could, maybe there is like a .05% of content like that but im not really sure for a mmorpg. Its do able if someone wanted but you are just creating things to wipe people at that point so they don't have a chance. Im unsure if you are using the word chaotic the same as me.

    Even if you tried to make each phase random of some new kind of boss he still has attack patterns and things it does that a player will figure out and know what to expect. Like if a boss always seems to be attacking a random person but really its the person furthest back in the room and eventually you figure it out and know what to do.

    Are you talking about a boss casting something and it has a random effect on you and our party so you aren't expecting it? but eventually you would know the effects on what to do and manage overtime. Chaotic is more the first run when you don't know any of the mechanics that would be the closest thing tbh..

    So you are disengaging on this point? I am glad to.

    The fact remains that Jormungand has no pattern that you can just react to. You get some control, but the individual actions of the Dragon are mostly chaos. And that fact does not care how you feel about it nor whether or not you believe it.

    However because I am a toxic petty person I offer to everyone on this forum who needs to make this argument the ability to just 'Summon the Ice Dragon'.

    If you need to make the point, mention Jormungand and call me.

    Why does the lack of a pattern matter? What about that fight makes it impossible to do in an action system?

    I was not saying it would be impossible in an Action System. I was only offering what Mag asked for.

    I personally believe that you must get up to 10-11 things to mentally track at once before I PERSONALLY start to drop things in Action Combat, but I am aware that for others it is lower. That fact is not relevant because even if I am consistently able to do what others cannot, it would just imply that I was in the 10% or so of players Ashes expected to be able to compete in Raid content.

    I believe that in an Action Combat system, 50% of 16-person groups could defeat a slightly toned down Jormungand. If you are willing to engage in good faith (imo you sometimes are, sometimes not, or sometimes you don't keep the same conversation target in mind that your 'opponent' does), I will explain this fight in more detail and why it may be difficult for some.

    If your wish is to continue believing that you are right, I will not. I also am not accepting your usual 'one liner encouragement to continue', though, so if you actually care, you might need to 'convince' me somehow. This is by no means a request.

    Ok, what data are you basing this off of?

    If i don't come off as arguing in good faith then it's because i don't think what i'm arguing against is being made in good faith.

    You have just randomly said that 50% of a 16 person group could do this fight but who are these 16 people and why 50%?

    Are we to assume that the all 16 people could do it if the game is tab?

    Are you claiming that the 50% who couldn't do it could never learn to do it?

    Even if your scenario was true, is it proof that you can't do as much in an action system?

    This data sounds made up to me, the scenario is oddly specific, and you claim the outcome is proof of your hypothesis.

    Can you understand where i'm coming from?

    You've basically made up in your head the connection between 'Me bringing up Jormungand' and 'my hypothesis'. That's where this normally happens.

    Mag asked 'Where do you track 6-7 things? What encounters out there are even just chaos?'

    It is true that the answer to THOSE THINGS does not counter anything you said above.

    Just ignore me, ok?

    I'm confused. i know i jumped in late and might have miss understood what you were arguing. I'm sorry for the headache.

    These are your words: "I believe that in an Action Combat system, 50% of 16-person groups could defeat a slightly toned down Jormungand."

    What are you trying to prove with this scenario?

    I am not trying to prove a specific thing in one direction or another relative to that 50% thing.

    So, backtracking. You jumped in late and asked 'what does this have to do with Action Combat systems'. And I was trying to say 'It's not directly related, it's a counterpoint to Mag'. I went too far and brought in more unnecessary numbers. So that's my fault here.

    There is no 'scenario', it was just me adding my experience as a designer because that's what I end up doing when I'm thinking about it. That's why you should ignore it. In order for any of that response to have any meaning to you, you'd need to have a predisposition toward trusting in my design experience or skill, which you have no reason to do afaik.

    It's a lot of effort for me to switch between 'designer talking to other designers' and 'clearly tracking and debating only the points in question', so I mess it up sometimes.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Tab skills hit 100% of the time, miss chance isn't exclusive to tab target. RnG exist for both tab and action, you don't know what you are talking about.
    You don't know what you're talking about.
    Tab skills have a miss chance included in the RNG. So they do not hit 100% of the time.
    And RNG is factored in much more for Tab skills than for Action skills - per the Ashes game design.

    Im assuming you are trying to quote something without the actual quoting.

    Where are you finding the information all tab skills had a higher miss chance applied to them?
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    @NiKr Am i missing a quote somewhere from the wiki?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Am i missing a quote somewhere from the wiki?
    If you're talking about the Dygz comment, I think you're just talking about different things.

    You mean that when you're in tab combat and have a target, your ability will always go towards your target so it will always "hit" it.

    What I think Dygz means is "when that tab ability hit the target, the dmg might not go through due to rng of evasion-to-accuracy equation", while in action it's usually "if you hit a dude with your action attack - you hit him".

    I haven't played enough BDO or other action games so I wanted to ask this of those who did play them, are there games where you have evasion stats on top of just physical dodging? And in case that there aren't, would you be ok with a game that did have evasion on top of dodging? Cause I feel like most action players would feel real fucking bad if after a minute of iframe dodges they finally manage to hit their target, but their accuracy is not enough to overcome that target's evasion stats :D
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Am i missing a quote somewhere from the wiki?
    If you're talking about the Dygz comment, I think you're just talking about different things.

    You mean that when you're in tab combat and have a target, your ability will always go towards your target so it will always "hit" it.

    What I think Dygz means is "when that tab ability hit the target, the dmg might not go through due to rng of evasion-to-accuracy equation", while in action it's usually "if you hit a dude with your action attack - you hit him".

    I haven't played enough BDO or other action games so I wanted to ask this of those who did play them, are there games where you have evasion stats on top of just physical dodging? And in case that there aren't, would you be ok with a game that did have evasion on top of dodging? Cause I feel like most action players would feel real fucking bad if after a minute of iframe dodges they finally manage to hit their target, but their accuracy is not enough to overcome that target's evasion stats :D

    I know what he means and I keep repeating myself when I saw rng effects both so I'm making sure I'm not missing a quote. It is either I'm missing a quote or he doesn't know what he is talking about and doing his normal weirdness


    In BDO Me and my friend both attacked a ninja who went afk (my friend has a lot of gear) And we couldn't kill him or hurt him, he evaded all of our attacks. (I use dodge when i mean a physical dodge, evade is my tab target mentality word for stats) Its kind of a big deal if you can't hurt someone in bdo.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Am i missing a quote somewhere from the wiki?
    If you're talking about the Dygz comment, I think you're just talking about different things.

    You mean that when you're in tab combat and have a target, your ability will always go towards your target so it will always "hit" it.

    What I think Dygz means is "when that tab ability hit the target, the dmg might not go through due to rng of evasion-to-accuracy equation", while in action it's usually "if you hit a dude with your action attack - you hit him".

    I haven't played enough BDO or other action games so I wanted to ask this of those who did play them, are there games where you have evasion stats on top of just physical dodging? And in case that there aren't, would you be ok with a game that did have evasion on top of dodging? Cause I feel like most action players would feel real fucking bad if after a minute of iframe dodges they finally manage to hit their target, but their accuracy is not enough to overcome that target's evasion stats :D

    BDO has evasion on top of Dodging because BDO is actually happening on two levels.

    Evasion handles micro-dodging, dealing with those 130 degree attack cones and huge AoE.

    Your physical skill handles macro-dodging. Getting out of the way of big attacks that you know are coming, or misleading your opponent to attack the wrong spot.

    It's neither good nor bad in itself, but BDO is of course, garbahge.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    The question is "Will there be RNG elements to combat relating towards specific stats such as Critical Hits, Evasion, Blocking Chance.... ?"
    And the answer is, 'Yes. There will be those elements available in the game.'"

    ---Steven

    "RNG is always going to play a role in Ashes of Creation, whether that be in PvP or PvE. But one way to mitigate that is through the Action system. The Action system is going to be far less dependent upon on those dice rolls. And they'll be far more in your own hands. It won't ever completely eliminate that, but it's a way for us to reward (player) skills play vs tactical strategy type play."
    ---Jeffrey
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Thanks now we know how they are trying to balance it.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Im sure how many abilities you want that will make you happy but eventually in tab get abilities feel kind of the same and you are just mashing your keyboard based on the pattern you need. Pretty sure in AOC you won't have like 50 abilities think i read somewhere they are trying to limit things.
    Steven said they'll have multiple ability bars, so in theory you'll be able to go through all of your skills if you want to. It'll just take more pianoing :D
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Its quite different from game to game and that depends on the mechanics in the pve encounter that people still refuse to say a word on. Pvp encounters a lot more chaotic and there for require more communication. If the pvp is a zerg fest where you are just throwing numbers at people it prob would be easier. But when you need to worry about defense groups, flex groups*, defense, enermy positions, countering enemy plans, keeping moral up and strong instructions for people to follow, mechanics and strats to use with siege and the items available to your team. Communication is key as you can't see everything on a while siege battlefield and a lot of people need to share constant information. Unlike a pve encounter where you know what is going to happen and its easier to translate and understand information nd have foresight on knowing what to do.
    The only way I could see Intrepid reaching the pve lvls that I want them to reach within the limitations of speech-related callouts would be their own ventrilo-like voip (mb TS has it too, don't remember), where you can have multiple levels of channel talking. Iirc discord doesn't have this.

    Have a party lvl room, class room (for synergy abilities that I would love to see but might not be in the game), cross party room where respective shot callers could talk to each other, and raid-wide speech for the leader.

    This kind of functionality allowed me to control my 120-member guild fairly easily because I could say "archer party on that wall, mage party on this wall, melees go below and guard the entrance". Party leaders were able to relay info to me and others w/o leaving their own party room. And they needed their party room because they had to do second-to-second callouts for their own party.

    If you had that kind of info relation in an open voice chat it'd be hell and pure confusion, especially during the more hardcore parts of the encounter.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    What if they don't have complex raids though and they are fun but only average or somewhat difficult they are having heavy focus on pvp with their systems and all so their resources are split. Hard or the less then 10% could simply because of gear more then anything we don't know.
    I would personally be fine with that cause I'm used to exactly that kind of "pve", but I do agree with Noaani's point that having great pve (as they promised with their "only 10% can beat this") would attract more people which is good for everyone.

    Now they could've meant just gear-based separation of players when it comes to raiding, but I feel like that'd be disingenuous on their part. When you say "some of our raids can only be cleared by <10% of players", literally everyone would think "oh so it's like the super complex raids from wow/ff14 then?" At least that's exactly what I thought when I first heard it, even though my whole pve experience was just "I need better gear to beat this".
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    Thanks now we know how they are trying to balance it.

    Also

    Lockdowns won't likely be tab-targeted skills. This is to avoid imbalanced combos with skill shot (action targeted) abilities.[5]
    Hard CCs may be housed in action oriented skills because they are skill shots that are more difficult to land.[7][5]
    We're trying to stay away from hard locks as much as we possibly can. We want to have the system be very play, counter-play, counter-counter-play kind of feel.[2] – Jeffrey Bard

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crowd_control

    i hope this also helps you and possible OP understand that even tho Tab Skills has its advantages, action skills will also have its advantages to balance the hybrid system.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    I will be the one to shed some much need light on the topic of this thread. You can all bow, as i give you the answer needed.

    As the title says: How in fact, "does one balance tab vs action abilities"

    And the answer my friends. Is......

    Wait for it...

    Testing.


    You may applaud.
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