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BDO Combat Primer
Azherae
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
If you even bothered to open this thread you know why it exists already. Onward.
BDO has a primary and secondary attack button for basic attacks.
At the start of the game, most classes are given only a single attack for each of these for some reason [Bad Design]. In order to unlock additional fairly standard melee attacks you must level and in some cases allocate skill points. The single 'standing still' attack levels up on its own. The 'sideways', 'forward', and 'holding back' attacks do not. Weapons are 'class locked', one Primary per class (until level 56).
In Contrast To Ashes:
Ashes will probably have many attacks and 'combos' available as soon as you equip a weapon, from what we know at the time of this post.
BDO relies on the multipliers on these attacks to increase damage as well as weapon damage.
A skill can only be leveled up to increase multipliers using skill points, but it also cannot be leveled up indefinitely, since you must level to a specific level to be allowed to. These choices are mostly not 'real choices' [Bad Design] until level 50+.
In Contrast To Ashes:
Current status of Weapon Skill Trees unknown.
BDO allows animation canceling on simpler attacks, and multi-hit attacks can be canceled (usually into evasion abilities) after some number of hits. Damage and effects for the remaining hits are not granted.
For many abilities, the option to cancel one into another is also something that must be unlocked as a "Flow:" skill and takes more skill points to even have available to you. These abilities are usually less simple, limited and have more intentional fluidity. It is meant to be a 'real choice', but like the above, is mostly not until level 50+.
In Contrast To Ashes:
There is currently no known instance of Animation Canceling in Ashes of either type.
BDO skills often have special effects which are granted on hits. These often define your class to an extent.
These are easy to miss, and the game does not contain much effects (even elemental damage and resistance do not exist). The related skills are almost always longer animations, can be canceled INTO but not usually OUT of, and only the 'debuffer' classes are usually allowed to have these special effects on their 'simple skills', until level 50+ (again). Self-buffing ones end up on any class.
In Contrast To Ashes:
Currently unknown but may be similar.
BDO's more powerful skills can be augmented with additional special effects of the player's choice after level 50, with one pair of Augments available to be applied to a single Not-Yet-Augmented skill every 2 levels until level 60.
These Augments are usually buffs and debuffs with durations of 7-10 seconds, and are seldom able to be applied to the very basic attack (the 'third' basic attack available to some debuffer classes like Ninja and Kunoichi may allow for Augments). Self healing is an option here, as is 'bleed damage' (this is usually weak relative to goals). If the skill has multiple hits and is cancelable, the buff or debuff applies repeatedly restarting the timer until the last non-canceled hit (so canceling on hit #5 starts the 10 second counter from that hit).
In Contrast To Ashes:
Currently unknown but may be similar, if one is willing to perceive 'Hotbar skills' such as Cleric's Castigation to be equivalent to something like Nova's 'Fianchetto', a flicking attack with her Morningstar weapon (approx same animation length and range).
BDO possesses both Super Armor skills and a stamina based Blocking system
BDO is a game that has stagger and flinch, Super Armor prevents these and lowers damage taken. Blocking is usually directional but may be a large cone depending on class. Timing your block is crucial in difficult battles, but only specific classes (usually those with shields) move while blocking.
In Contrast To Ashes:
There is not yet any indication of stagger or flinch on common attacks in Ashes. It is possible that all classes will be able to block.
BDO skills increase the number of targets that can be hit as one levels the skill.
As example, a lateral slash in front of the player does not hit 12 enemies even if you gather 12 enemies into the hitbox of this skill, it hits however many the skill says it hits. The game is built around killing multiple enemies at once by strategically positioning them in front of/around you and then attacking and evading before you can be staggered by any of them. Below level 50, nearly no regular enemy will actually stagger you.
In Contrast To Ashes:
As of last information, there is no limit to AoE or Cleaving damage in Ashes, so presumably it will be even more effective to do this than in BDO (assuming you could avoid taking damage), particularly with no stagger seen so far. (In BDO if you are unlikely to take damage due to level or gear, or have a 'Super Armor' AoE skill, this is the outcome.)
BDO creates an illusion of great speed using three visual tricks
The first is fast movements within a long single animation. A slower animation could be used for the same effect, but it would not feel as visceral.
The second is the timings at which one can cancel long single animations into movement. By allowing this, the viewer is given the feeling that the attack animation itself is very fast.
The third is flashy effects on the enemy to distract from the actual slower attack animations. Think of this like sleight of hand, by distracting the viewer from the relatively slower animation with screenshake, whirlwinds, lightning, and explosions, they can make slow animations look more frenetic.
Long lunging attacks, on the other hand, are usually 'real' here. Since the spacing and rooted animations actually make the non-evasion/mobility parts of combat quite slow, the visuals are otherwise tuned to 'bring them back in line with the feeling of high mobility'.
In Contrast to Ashes:
Ashes does not seem to yet be aiming toward using these tricks, however the animation timings are similar and in multiple cases faster than BDO (seen in Alpha-1 and the latest Combat Update). Without these tricks, combat seems more methodical and slower, but this is not currently backed up by the frame data (compare BDO's Kunoichi and Drakania to Dagger and 2 Handed Sword).
BDO has a primary and secondary attack button for basic attacks.
At the start of the game, most classes are given only a single attack for each of these for some reason [Bad Design]. In order to unlock additional fairly standard melee attacks you must level and in some cases allocate skill points. The single 'standing still' attack levels up on its own. The 'sideways', 'forward', and 'holding back' attacks do not. Weapons are 'class locked', one Primary per class (until level 56).
In Contrast To Ashes:
Ashes will probably have many attacks and 'combos' available as soon as you equip a weapon, from what we know at the time of this post.
BDO relies on the multipliers on these attacks to increase damage as well as weapon damage.
A skill can only be leveled up to increase multipliers using skill points, but it also cannot be leveled up indefinitely, since you must level to a specific level to be allowed to. These choices are mostly not 'real choices' [Bad Design] until level 50+.
In Contrast To Ashes:
Current status of Weapon Skill Trees unknown.
BDO allows animation canceling on simpler attacks, and multi-hit attacks can be canceled (usually into evasion abilities) after some number of hits. Damage and effects for the remaining hits are not granted.
For many abilities, the option to cancel one into another is also something that must be unlocked as a "Flow:" skill and takes more skill points to even have available to you. These abilities are usually less simple, limited and have more intentional fluidity. It is meant to be a 'real choice', but like the above, is mostly not until level 50+.
In Contrast To Ashes:
There is currently no known instance of Animation Canceling in Ashes of either type.
BDO skills often have special effects which are granted on hits. These often define your class to an extent.
These are easy to miss, and the game does not contain much effects (even elemental damage and resistance do not exist). The related skills are almost always longer animations, can be canceled INTO but not usually OUT of, and only the 'debuffer' classes are usually allowed to have these special effects on their 'simple skills', until level 50+ (again). Self-buffing ones end up on any class.
In Contrast To Ashes:
Currently unknown but may be similar.
BDO's more powerful skills can be augmented with additional special effects of the player's choice after level 50, with one pair of Augments available to be applied to a single Not-Yet-Augmented skill every 2 levels until level 60.
These Augments are usually buffs and debuffs with durations of 7-10 seconds, and are seldom able to be applied to the very basic attack (the 'third' basic attack available to some debuffer classes like Ninja and Kunoichi may allow for Augments). Self healing is an option here, as is 'bleed damage' (this is usually weak relative to goals). If the skill has multiple hits and is cancelable, the buff or debuff applies repeatedly restarting the timer until the last non-canceled hit (so canceling on hit #5 starts the 10 second counter from that hit).
In Contrast To Ashes:
Currently unknown but may be similar, if one is willing to perceive 'Hotbar skills' such as Cleric's Castigation to be equivalent to something like Nova's 'Fianchetto', a flicking attack with her Morningstar weapon (approx same animation length and range).
BDO possesses both Super Armor skills and a stamina based Blocking system
BDO is a game that has stagger and flinch, Super Armor prevents these and lowers damage taken. Blocking is usually directional but may be a large cone depending on class. Timing your block is crucial in difficult battles, but only specific classes (usually those with shields) move while blocking.
In Contrast To Ashes:
There is not yet any indication of stagger or flinch on common attacks in Ashes. It is possible that all classes will be able to block.
BDO skills increase the number of targets that can be hit as one levels the skill.
As example, a lateral slash in front of the player does not hit 12 enemies even if you gather 12 enemies into the hitbox of this skill, it hits however many the skill says it hits. The game is built around killing multiple enemies at once by strategically positioning them in front of/around you and then attacking and evading before you can be staggered by any of them. Below level 50, nearly no regular enemy will actually stagger you.
In Contrast To Ashes:
As of last information, there is no limit to AoE or Cleaving damage in Ashes, so presumably it will be even more effective to do this than in BDO (assuming you could avoid taking damage), particularly with no stagger seen so far. (In BDO if you are unlikely to take damage due to level or gear, or have a 'Super Armor' AoE skill, this is the outcome.)
BDO creates an illusion of great speed using three visual tricks
The first is fast movements within a long single animation. A slower animation could be used for the same effect, but it would not feel as visceral.
The second is the timings at which one can cancel long single animations into movement. By allowing this, the viewer is given the feeling that the attack animation itself is very fast.
The third is flashy effects on the enemy to distract from the actual slower attack animations. Think of this like sleight of hand, by distracting the viewer from the relatively slower animation with screenshake, whirlwinds, lightning, and explosions, they can make slow animations look more frenetic.
Long lunging attacks, on the other hand, are usually 'real' here. Since the spacing and rooted animations actually make the non-evasion/mobility parts of combat quite slow, the visuals are otherwise tuned to 'bring them back in line with the feeling of high mobility'.
In Contrast to Ashes:
Ashes does not seem to yet be aiming toward using these tricks, however the animation timings are similar and in multiple cases faster than BDO (seen in Alpha-1 and the latest Combat Update). Without these tricks, combat seems more methodical and slower, but this is not currently backed up by the frame data (compare BDO's Kunoichi and Drakania to Dagger and 2 Handed Sword).
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
6
Comments
Skills are entirely different in PvP and PvE. Some Debuffs only apply in PvE, damage is scaled very precisely in PvP (reduced from PvE damage) and every class has a stupid literal hidden 'damage taken from specific other class' multiplier (yes seriously).
The actual combat flow is unchanged.
In 2019, after realizing that players were tired of this 'PvE', they added 'Dark Rifts', which are a type level 56 limited 1v1 'instanced' boss battle. You cannot do these in a party. These are the only remotely challenging PvE content in standard play until level 59 in my opinion. They take about 5 minutes to kill and scale with your stats.
It is by fighting these that you can somewhat understand what BDO PvE is capable of being, but even for these the majority are not good (downgraded Field Bosses mostly, which are okay but still simplistic).
The mechanical skills required do shine through here for some of them. The game mostly ranks their difficulty by their mobility. Those that move very little are tagged as 'Normal', those that move a lot and reposition are tagged as 'Hard' or 'Very Hard'. This is very likely the reason why there are not more of them with better designs. Average players find them 'too difficult' after not being trained at all by any of the other PvE.
Actions Per Minute can reach 90 on some.
Decisions per Minute sits at the general comfort level of 20-35 (with some 'Normal' ones being below this and one particular one actually being a clean 0 DPM).
For those unfamiliar with DPM, think of it simply as 'how many branches or situations a bot would need to identify to do the fight in place of a human player'.
DPM in PvP could be considered high, but once you HIT, it is 3. TTK is 7 seconds on Console right now FROM the point of first CC hit, using softcap geared character. It can rise if someone happens to RNG evade a hit in your combo (while CC'ed, yes). However the point of PvP is to never get hit, so this is not helpful as a comparison.
In Contrast To Ashes
Alpha-1 APM at level 15 on a solo Elite was closer to 50, a little low, but this is level 15.
DPM was about the same 20.
All my experience is on Cleric.
Alpha-1 APM at level 15 in PvP was around 18-30 from what I remember.
DPM was the same, as it is seldom different from APM in PvP in medium-mobility games.
My main PvP experience was when Steven pulled us all together for a big test at the end of an Alpha-1 phase. I found it to be generally easy and went approximately 18-6 in multiple smaller 1v1s, but Cleric was notably unbalanced in Alpha-1.