Expansion Philosophy

Ransel

Hi all,

I have a ton of questions, but I'll try to learn what I can from videos and news releases for a bit.

I was curious about the developers philosophy and opinion on a couple of topics.

I've seen many mmos that spend years developing a game to make all the "old" content obsolete with an expansion a year after release, and then the inevitable expansion treadmill begins.

There are a couple games that try to do more "horizontal" expansion of game content instead of the "vertical" expansion that games like WoW et al employ. Ie, vertical by raising the level cap by 10 and reskinning some zones instead of horizontal by keeping levels and gear mostly the same but with new challenges added.

Have the developers discussed how they plan to introduce new content into their overall world?

Nothing is more world breaking to me than fighting an "epic" battle just to have it become trivial when the latest content drops.

I'm also curious about fast travel in the game if the developers have spoken about it and anyone would be kind enough to point me to their interviews.

Thanks for the help and have a nice day!

Hinotori

welcome to the community!

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fast_travel

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Expansions

Ransel

Thanks for the info!

George_Black

I never understood why people, after reaching lv50 would want to go back to areas with mobs and quests lv10.
What's wrong with low lv content being obsolete for higher lv players?
The low lv content should be there for new players.

Expansions should rightfully introduce new lv cap, new gear tier, a handful of new skills and balance adjustments, expanding map with new zones, new mobs, new open world bosses and maybe a new epic boss.

Why is it wrong to give a new challenge for players, a new scene for conflict of interests to take place (open world pvp), and why do you care about content that you did when you started this game?

Ransel

Hi George_Black, thanks for sharing your outlook.

I didn't mean to imply that going back to low levels zones is wrong or that there shouldn't be low level content.

I was trying to find out if this game was more horizontally focused on vertically focused in terms of progression.

Both styles add new challenges to a game albeit in different ways, although the benefit of horizontal progression is that older content is still a "challenge" instead of obsolete.

I can agree on all the skills, monsters, raids, etc that you say expansions should add, but could you explain more what you mean by expansions should rightfully raise level caps?

There alternatives to raising level caps when adding new challenging content.

As for caring about content I did when I first started a game, dead and empty zones are world breaking to me. Games that find ways to make old players engage with new players in a meaningful way keeps old zones alive.

PvP is one method to accomplish this, but it's not the only way to reach this goal.

George_Black

First of all what mmos have you played?
I played L2 Tera BDO AA ESO FF14. This would help use some common terms to talk about expansions and lv caps.

Secondly PvP is very wrong in bringing together low and high lv players and that is precicely want I dont want to see. Yet it happens when you force (but as you call it "return to older content") high lv players to do old stuff.

Ransel

That's not what I'm implying at all.

I was trying to emphasize alternatives to pvp as ideal to encouraging older player interaction with newer players. I believe horizontal level progression does this better than vertical progression.

While it is true I acknowledged that pvp is one way to accomplish old/new player interaction, I don't think it's ideal.

George_Black

What mmos have you played?

Ransel

More than I care to admit, I'm just an old guy bored at work. I've been around since EverQuest 1 and Ultima online days.

Ransel

Otr wrote: »

Ransel wrote: »

Have the developers discussed how they plan to introduce new content into their overall world?

In my opinion the way the direction of the game seems to go toward a living map, where things change over time.
I say this based on an example:

In order for choice to matter, the world must be capable of change. Ashes of Creation brings to life a world designed around that concept. From seasons that include quiet autumns and devastating winters, to a volcano that threatens to level a city, this world lives and breathes and reacts to what the players do. On one server, that volcano may never erupt, in another that devastating winter may last five cycles, or with the help of a few heroes maybe only one.

Remains to be seen how they will manage to keep up with changes.

My concern is a different one.
If they add new maps and keep the old regions too, they will spread the player base on a larger area, decreasing the density of players.

In Ashes of Creation there will be no cross-server interaction (except maybe in some arenas)
That means that if they create hype for release, the player base will start decreasing and played density will be lower and lower on each server.

I think when the time comes, they should start sinking continents to reduce the surface and eventually make worlds join each other, ending up with the same size and shape as before.

Sinking continents would be an interesting game mechanic I haven't seen before.

HeetCrusher

I don't think Ashes needs to do expansions like WOW at all. This is a MMO about resources and controlling nodes. I come from mostly Eveonline (6 years) and there they just add content for PvP n PVE. Like the first exp. could be working on naval warfare adding new ships, or adding different caravans, add new zones, change up nodes, I don't feel players need levels every exp. There is a lot they could add without increasing players level. I am sure we are going to need to have alts. Just need spies to see what the enemy's comp is and what we need to counter it. So excited for this game.

George_Black

Ransel wrote: »

More than I care to admit, I'm just an old guy bored at work. I've been around since EverQuest 1 and Ultima online days.

I think the best way to keep old zones polulated is for quests to start from the low lv areas. Not the killings, just the quest giver. That way new players will see high lv players, say "gold pliz" and talk about guild invites.
Some higher players like to mentor and support WITHOUT the need for a coded mechanic. Just human interaction.

This is the only meaningful interaction between higher and lower players. And also the only way to get playes to go back to the starting areas without having to kill lv1 wolves (or lv50 demons that should not be killed in front of the innocent eyes of lv1 players).

Taleof2Cities

George_Black wrote: »

This is the only meaningful interaction between higher and lower players. And also the only way to get playes to go back to the starting areas without having to kill lv1 wolves (or lv50 demons that should not be killed in front of the innocent eyes of lv1 players).

There is another way, @George_Black, and that’s having scaled overland content.

Which means high levels and low levels can group together to complete quests and content … because the low level player’s stat line is scaled.

I’m not saying it’s better than leveled zones (a topic for another thread) … but forum-goers should be aware that leveled zones aren’t the only viable format (per your quote).

George_Black

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

This is the only meaningful interaction between higher and lower players. And also the only way to get playes to go back to the starting areas without having to kill lv1 wolves (or lv50 demons that should not be killed in front of the innocent eyes of lv1 players).

There is another way, @George_Black, and that’s having scaled overland content.

Which means high levels and low levels can group together to complete quests and content … because the low level player’s stat line is scaled.

I’m not saying it’s better than leveled zones (a topic for another thread) … but forum-goers should be aware that leveled zones aren’t the only viable format (per your quote).

Terrible. You are talking about One Tamriel. Which made everything being a non challenge UNLESS you just created a character and have 1 active skill and 0 stats.
Terrible concept. It's not going to happen and the evidence is that IS said there will be xp penalties if there is a 7 or so lv difference between the highest and lowest party member. It goes to show that IS doesnt want high lv players carrying lower lv players (thanks to their gear, stats, skills and overall higher expertise).

I am 31yo now and I dont have the same time like I did on my teens. Which means that I get that some people may fall behind their friends and they wont be able to group together. But scalling is terrible for mmos. I cant stress that enough. I dont mind falling behind. I will still have a better mmo to play.

In this mmo it's the only available format and there is no reason to discuss other formats from other games. It's not open for discussion from the devs. Better talk about how low lv players can meet higher lv and ask about guild and mentoring/advices (where to lv up, where to find good mats, good builds, you know... all those wonderful social things to make you better at the game, instead if copying some smelly content creator wearing pjs and youtubing, failing at using said builds and then flood the forums saying "nerf this, buff that").

CROW3

Ransel wrote: »

More than I care to admit, I'm just an old guy bored at work. I've been around since EverQuest 1 and Ultima online days.

Always good to bolster the ‘old guy’ ranks, @Ransel . UO was my first MMO as well (always liked Richard Garriott).

I’m not a fan of scaled content either, it robs players of power gain as they level. I think it’s ok that there’s a gap between new players and vets. New players will catch up and then they’ll become vets.

The great equalizer in mmos isn’t normalizing leveled content, but guilds. So, I’d focus on emphasizing social hubs in nodes, and new players will naturally seek & find a guild that will bridge the level gap.

Nerror

Ransel wrote: »

Hi all,

I have a ton of questions, but I'll try to learn what I can from videos and news releases for a bit.

I was curious about the developers philosophy and opinion on a couple of topics.

I've seen many mmos that spend years developing a game to make all the "old" content obsolete with an expansion a year after release, and then the inevitable expansion treadmill begins.

There are a couple games that try to do more "horizontal" expansion of game content instead of the "vertical" expansion that games like WoW et al employ. Ie, vertical by raising the level cap by 10 and reskinning some zones instead of horizontal by keeping levels and gear mostly the same but with new challenges added.

Have the developers discussed how they plan to introduce new content into their overall world?

Nothing is more world breaking to me than fighting an "epic" battle just to have it become trivial when the latest content drops.

I'm also curious about fast travel in the game if the developers have spoken about it and anyone would be kind enough to point me to their interviews.

Thanks for the help and have a nice day!

Welcome aboard!

So, you've read the links I assume. One important thing about the game and the philosophy is that there are no level zones in the sense you might be used to. High level and low level content will be mixed throughout the world, and it will dynamically change based on the nearby node level. It is seems to be part of Steven's philosophy that low level and high level players are in the same general areas, but obviously different sub-sections of those general areas if we are talking about killing monsters. But technically speaking we could see a pocket of lvl 15 monsters near a pocket of lvl 45 monsters.

As a node levels up it changes the world content around it, and might open up a new dungeon for example. If that node is reset to zero after a successful siege, all those changes could revert back to wilderness settings, and the dungeon be closed again.

Which brings us to the expansion part. As you've probably read, Steven plans on increasing the level cap. However, since we don't have level zones as many other MMORPGs have, they don't necessarily have to add a new high level zone to the world. They can work within the existing world and open up the higher level content there depending on the node levels. Some stuff could obviously be permanently added too, like a new opening into a pocket of the underrealm with some new, gnarly high-level monsters. In a sense that is a bit like adding a high level zone, but without adding new landmass to the game. They can do this several different places in the world, spreading out the new high level content that way, instead of forcing all the high level players to all go to the same new area.