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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Forming groups, delving dungeons, and encouraging teamwork instead of just a DPS check
KapStoan
Member
Why did our group of 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 melee dps, 1 ranged dps take on another healer? Because they weren't a rando, we knew they were a good player, and because we enjoyed playing with them.
Steven describes dynamic encounters as adjusting to the performance of the group. Certainly a group leader can decide that the goal is to defeat a boss in under 30 seconds, and if that isn't happening they can start asking questions and scrutinizing their group, but I frankly hope this is only going to occur for certain types of players and groups and not ALL of them. I hope the game will encourage groups to form and learn, and not sit in chat all day seeking to assess all players by a single metric - DPS.
I imagine a group running into a sort of dungeon lobby where players of various levels and classes are farming solo. As Steven has said, the deeper you go the more difficult the mobs become, so you can imagine a group of lvl 30s running down 3 levels and looking around for anyone soloing and asking if they want to join.
Once they join, the group can stay on level 3 and go down the hallway to fight groups of mobs, or can venture further downstairs to level 4. If this group is doing OK, they're unlikely to ask each other what their DPS is, because the success comes from the team and how it performs overall. There could be a person who does 3/4 the DPS of someone else, but they are a good group member, paying attention, and working together. In this scenario I could see fights taking a little longer, but the group isn't dying and is therefore satisfied.
Now if that same group leader wants to try to go downstairs to level 5 to get better loot, they may start asking their level 30s and 40s group members to own up to their DPS so they as a group can decide whether they have a chance to risk going deeper for some better rewards. But what I would hate to see is such a simplistic gameplay loop where burning down HP is the only thing that matters, so DPS numbers of group mates is the only thing that matters, so people sit in chat for an hour saying "LFM DPS 3k minimum" instead of just grouping up and playing the game. Remember, we want people to play the game, both casuals and hard-core people alike.
https://youtu.be/Jmgz9S__MOY?t=181
Certainly at a later stage of the game, you will probably not even go to particular dungeons until you have your group, and you're free to try to distinguish the best composition to bring in any way you see fit. In my DAOC days we might test you by watching you solo a certain mob to see how you handle yourself, but it would never be this disgusting practice in WoW where we watch you hit a practice dummy just to see if your gear and memorized button rotation = 3k DPS.
I'm hoping for a game that values the group dynamic, creative problem solving, and diverse gameplay styles. Not only is it more fun for me to just walk into a dungeon and be accepted into a group based only on my level and role (which still doesn't really reveal much about me and doesn't let you assume what I am capable of), but I think the entire game would get reduced to a lobby game like WoW if players are made to feel like there is only one good composition of a group and only one good way to measure contribution to the group, so they don't even TRY to form up and play the game - they wait for the perfect situation to make sure there are no surprises, no thinking required, and no risk. It also breeds more players who just pick the easiest one button build so they can mindlessly DPS, and I don't want to play with those people either.
I'm certainly not saying you should run into a dungeon with 4 bards and a ret paladin - you should figure out how you're going to be prepared for any challenge and have the roles in the trinity filled out - but you shouldn't demand tank, 3 dps, 1 healer all the time either. I've had some amazing group experiences with 2 healers that would have never happened if we hadn't played as a group, learned our strengths, and then selected challenges that aligned with those strengths.
Why did our group of 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 melee dps, 1 ranged dps take on another healer? Because they weren't a rando, we knew they were a good player, and because we enjoyed playing with them. Sure, adding another rogue or buffbot would have been fine, but if given the choice between the "meta" and playing with someone I like playing with and who is a reliable player who can think on their feet, I want the game to allow me the freedom to pick that person and still find a way to succeed, and not be forced into picking the rando rogue with an attitude who doesn't talk and ninja loots the 2h.
Steven describes dynamic encounters as adjusting to the performance of the group. Certainly a group leader can decide that the goal is to defeat a boss in under 30 seconds, and if that isn't happening they can start asking questions and scrutinizing their group, but I frankly hope this is only going to occur for certain types of players and groups and not ALL of them. I hope the game will encourage groups to form and learn, and not sit in chat all day seeking to assess all players by a single metric - DPS.
I imagine a group running into a sort of dungeon lobby where players of various levels and classes are farming solo. As Steven has said, the deeper you go the more difficult the mobs become, so you can imagine a group of lvl 30s running down 3 levels and looking around for anyone soloing and asking if they want to join.
Once they join, the group can stay on level 3 and go down the hallway to fight groups of mobs, or can venture further downstairs to level 4. If this group is doing OK, they're unlikely to ask each other what their DPS is, because the success comes from the team and how it performs overall. There could be a person who does 3/4 the DPS of someone else, but they are a good group member, paying attention, and working together. In this scenario I could see fights taking a little longer, but the group isn't dying and is therefore satisfied.
Now if that same group leader wants to try to go downstairs to level 5 to get better loot, they may start asking their level 30s and 40s group members to own up to their DPS so they as a group can decide whether they have a chance to risk going deeper for some better rewards. But what I would hate to see is such a simplistic gameplay loop where burning down HP is the only thing that matters, so DPS numbers of group mates is the only thing that matters, so people sit in chat for an hour saying "LFM DPS 3k minimum" instead of just grouping up and playing the game. Remember, we want people to play the game, both casuals and hard-core people alike.
https://youtu.be/Jmgz9S__MOY?t=181Certainly at a later stage of the game, you will probably not even go to particular dungeons until you have your group, and you're free to try to distinguish the best composition to bring in any way you see fit. In my DAOC days we might test you by watching you solo a certain mob to see how you handle yourself, but it would never be this disgusting practice in WoW where we watch you hit a practice dummy just to see if your gear and memorized button rotation = 3k DPS.
I'm hoping for a game that values the group dynamic, creative problem solving, and diverse gameplay styles. Not only is it more fun for me to just walk into a dungeon and be accepted into a group based only on my level and role (which still doesn't really reveal much about me and doesn't let you assume what I am capable of), but I think the entire game would get reduced to a lobby game like WoW if players are made to feel like there is only one good composition of a group and only one good way to measure contribution to the group, so they don't even TRY to form up and play the game - they wait for the perfect situation to make sure there are no surprises, no thinking required, and no risk. It also breeds more players who just pick the easiest one button build so they can mindlessly DPS, and I don't want to play with those people either.
I'm certainly not saying you should run into a dungeon with 4 bards and a ret paladin - you should figure out how you're going to be prepared for any challenge and have the roles in the trinity filled out - but you shouldn't demand tank, 3 dps, 1 healer all the time either. I've had some amazing group experiences with 2 healers that would have never happened if we hadn't played as a group, learned our strengths, and then selected challenges that aligned with those strengths.
Why did our group of 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 melee dps, 1 ranged dps take on another healer? Because they weren't a rando, we knew they were a good player, and because we enjoyed playing with them. Sure, adding another rogue or buffbot would have been fine, but if given the choice between the "meta" and playing with someone I like playing with and who is a reliable player who can think on their feet, I want the game to allow me the freedom to pick that person and still find a way to succeed, and not be forced into picking the rando rogue with an attitude who doesn't talk and ninja loots the 2h.
2
Comments
There wont be much instanced content and as such dps rules dont apply. The game will be mostly open world pvp/pve. There will be open areas as well as catacombs caves and other "dungeons" that are actually xp zones.
Players will have much more to worry about than dps needed for the scripted dungeon raid. It wont even be a requirement for a group.
The game wont have group finder or teleports. There wont be allowed dps meters and people using such ingame programs WILL BE REPORTED, let alone demand results.
The above should paint the picture that players will have to form social connections, which will be by nature longer to form than "I need 5dps 1h 1 ta k 1 bard" and more humane. Over that course people will teach and learn since they will be more receptive to critisism, as opposed to /kick for no good dps.
By the time people get to clear instanced content they will know a few other players. They won't have to ask for dds healers tanks, nor will they need proof of their ability, since they will know before hand.
In addition, the open world raid bosses (from my experience in L2) had other factors that influenced a successful raid.
Like the boss having minions or being solo. If it was solo only the best tank classes would form a group and take it on.
Did the boss had archer minions?
Did the boss had mass root?
Did the boss had silence debuffs? The mages would be useless.
Did the boss had sword/blunt resistance? Arrow resistance?
All these, with the addition of hostile players were things to consider when forming a group raiding. Not dps.
I hadn't heard that was certain. Do you remember where you heard that?
The current plan from Intrepid is to not support combat trackers, and to not allow add ons.
There has not been any word past that. They have not said you cant talk about combat trackers if you have one, nor that they will prevent combat trackers that are not add ons.
Don't forget George's first post, @KapStoan ... instanced dungeons aren't going to be an emphasis in Ashes.
It's about an 80%/20% ratio of open world dungeons to instanced dungeons.
Hitting baseline requirements to avoid debilitating effects, resolve mechanics, and not die is just that: a baseline, for any raid or combat instance in any game. Everything past that point is damage in and damage out.
I think an interesting and unique balancing factor that Ashes has that many other MMOs do not is that you do always (excluding the less common instanced combat encounters) have the possibility of unplanned PVP. By default, you'll want more tools available to you than some guy with a shield, some guy who heals, and 3 people with the biggest sticks they can find, in case you get ganked coming out of boss room and lose your mats.
Group pvp metas vastly differ from group pve metas, and the middle ground that you find works for your group will likely not be the same as others.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. The top guilds will likely send in a 40 man PvE meta group to do the content and the 260 remaining guildies will go in PvP mode to disrupt the opposing teams.
This could end up playing more like a massive game of Alterac Valley than a traditional raid.
Yes. Glorious. And the assassins will have to sneak past and take out the healers and tanks
Think we need to see how it actually works first before we assume things.
And this is a good thing, and helps the game overall. A large guild, cant really break up unless something major happens. You're all one machine.
A group of small guilds... i mean, yeah, we work together and try and stay organized, but it easier for me and the 20 or so player i play with to go a different way without having to "leave our identity" with the old guild. Makes politics, better, easier, and more likely for friction. Without forcing it on the players.