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Discoverable Alchemy

akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I dislike the ease at which in-game learning can be circumvented soon after a game starts by the wealth of walkthroughs being made.

I would like to see some elements within the game discoverable and combinations of which are algorithms (or equivalent) relative to a nodes progression and so therefore only become know through trial and error and specific to a node perhaps.

Kingdom Come Deliverance did a good job of discoverable Alchemy. Only though experimentation did one discover potions, cures etc and only thought repeated progressive experimentation did one advance skills.

I like the idea of being able to leverage on own discoveries by selling potion recipies etc too.

What are your thoughts on discoverable alchemy?

Comments

  • WarthWarth Member
    I like the idea overall. I just don't know how that can be implemented in an MMO when discovered recipes will end on the wiki rather soon.
  • LeukaelLeukael Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I liked in NW where different tiers of types could be used. That way biomes can have their identity in terms of resources. It would be great based on the area you knew what items you had to gather but had to identify the other herbs by picking/using them.
    Stag-Axiom-Sig-LEAUK3.png
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    Warth wrote: »
    I like the idea overall. I just don't know how that can be implemented in an MMO when discovered recipes will end on the wiki rather soon.

    The thing is, having access to specific recipes constitutes such a monumental access within the economy, I could very well see players being very jealous of them.

    If we don't end up going with discoverable recipes, then one player could use the right ingredients in the right order, but still not get the right result without the recipe. You could lore it as there being specific ways of mixing them, flame temperature etc.

    If we do go with discoverable recipes, then we're rendering recipes dropped as high-end raid loot, virtually worthless. One level 1 player could ideally stumble into creating that high level potion, provided he bought all of the right ingredients and hit the jackpot.
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  • WarthWarth Member
    I might have misunderstood your post.

    I thought you were talking about the discovery of new recipes through trial and error, which is close to impossible to create well as a system.

    I'd like Finding/unlockingecipes and them being required to craft most things. Both in Alchemy and other professions.
  • Night WingsNight Wings Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    We're definitely going to have rare recipes. We're going to have a very active recipe market that how players find them and how they discover them is going to be very diverse. It's not just going to be drop oriented. It's going to be discovery, adventurism, treasures, repetitionof a particular activity that might yield something, deconstruction that might learn how to create a recipe. There's a lot of different functionality that's present that's going to be utilized.[3] – Steven Sharif
    Not confirmed
    A royalty system where players can license recipes to other players for a certain amount of time and collect royalties was discussed as a possibility.[10]

    Livestream, 26 May 2017 (26:00).


    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Recipes
    Otr wrote: »
    akabear wrote: »
    ... and only through repeated progressive experimentation did one advance skills.
    Repetition will not be part of progression in Ashes of Creation.[32]

    send link of where you found that information please :)
    I wouldn't mind a going blind view point of trying to find recipes whether it be mixing some and just trying to figure out what goes together personally.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    'Trial and Error' would make discovery of recipes nearly impossible ... Unless there was a discoverable and logical theory behind potion crafting/alchemy/cooking and other crafts.

    Let's use a potion for causing an explosion where fire sticks to your enemies for some period of time for an example. This potion will require 'something that explodes' + 'something which burns' + 'something sticky' to succeed. 'Things that explode' in the world might include things like remnants from desert mobs (dropped from hunting) or 'remnants from lightning strikes' (found from burnt trees in mountains). 'Things that burn' might include 'pine resin sap' (gathered while making lumber in a sawmill) or 'swamp oil' (gathered in swamps). 'Sticky things' might include honey (from gardening) or pig shit (from ranching), with a variety of each type of thing of varying quality available in the world. Gather one from each group, stir them up, and you have a potion! The crafter's skill and the quality of each ingredient would impact the power of the potion. For example, animal husbandry could lead to huge pigs which produce magnificent shit and a better potion.

    Another example might be in cooking where you need 'a crust' (requiring wheat, corn or other similar), 'a fruit' (apples, peaches, farkleberries, etc.) and 'a sweetener' (honey, crushed beets, sugar cane). Your cooking skill and the quality of the ingredients would make a pie which provides a beneficial buff.

    So, do you see my point? Crafting of whatever consumable type the game may provide will require logic-based materials of various types. Higher level crafters will make better consumables. Higher quality ingredients will lead to better consumables. Particular combinations might have bonuses (wheat crust, sugar from cane from a distant Island and peaches from cultivated trees at least 10 game years old = great pie with a great, long-lasting buff).

    All of this could be discoverable in-game and the wisest crafters will not share their secrets on youtube!
  • Night WingsNight Wings Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 8
    Otr wrote: »
    Otr wrote: »
    akabear wrote: »
    ... and only through repeated progressive experimentation did one advance skills.

    Repetition will not be part of progression in Ashes of Creation.[32]

    send link of where you found that information please :)
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Progression

    ahh this is referring to daily's (quest) in games not really profession's.

    Livestream, 12 May 2017 (42:17).
    here
    none of the less cheers for the link :)
    @tautau just to make sure I got this correctly from what you're saying.

    a+b=c
    A+B=C
    {a}+{b}={c}
    A+b=~c~
    a+{b}=/c

    All items make the same thing, but a different quality one is stronger then the other, but at the end of the day it will always end up being "c" so

    a+b can make a bomb
    A+B can make a big bomb
    and so fourth.

    (another example)
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    q4ruh3a88tp9.png


    use a grade 5 thatch (bark) and a grade 5 flint (agate) and I got my self the best fire that can be crafted, but I got to discover that resource and find where it spawns, but I will know its categorize under flint/thatch.

    So in the crafting table there will be 2 boxes that says it needs flint/thatch in order to craft, but it wont tell you which one is best or what types of flint/thatch is even out there you got to find out and explore which one is better.


    is that basically what you're saying right? or am I way off?
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Night Wings Yes, more or less, though of course I was just speculating.

    Generally, all the different things that can be crafted (meals, armor, potions, weapons, high grade iron, animal feed, &tc. &tc) will need ingredients of various 'types'. The 'types' will have categories such as ore, sticky stuff, baking flour, sweet stuff, things that ignite, soft wood, hard wood....many dozens of different categories.

    Each item that will be crafted will need two or more ingredients of different types, the more complex the craft the more 'types' might be needed. A strawberry tart (strength +1 for 20 minutes when eaten) might need a sweet, a flour and a fruit. A Lembas Elf Bread (strength +3 for 4 hours) might need six different types as well as cooking level 5 mastery to make.

    The duration and strength of the buff, the armor, or whatever you are crafting would be impacted by the quality of the ingredient. High grade iron (only found by master gatherers) results in better armor than low grade iron, which everyone can find. The buff from a strawberry tart made with honey from your home garden may not last as long as one made from cane sugar processed from a specific small island in a distant ocean.

    Note that some things, such as honey, fall into two categories...it is both a sweet thing and a sticky thing, so you can use it in cooking or for potions. In my example in the prior post, it was used in a fire potion to make the fire stick to an enemy to produce a 'damage over time' effect. Some sticky things are inherently better than others, honey is better than blackberry juice (sticks for a longer time, so longer DOT effect). But if you don't have access to honey, you can make the potion with blackberry juice, it just won't be as good.

    So, in my speculations, the quality of the crafted item depends on the quality of the materials (determined by the mastery of the gatherer & prior crafters) as well as the level of the crafter. A really great strawberry tart requires not only a high-level cook but also high-level beekeepers, strawberry farmers, wheat farmers, and so forth. Just like a magnificent helmet requires not only a master helmet maker but also master ore gatherers, blacksmiths, jewel setters and other master craftsmen for all the work on the intermediate parts.

    At least that is how it works in my head. IS has yet to reach out to me to design the systems for them, oddly enough.
  • Night WingsNight Wings Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    tautau wrote: »
    At least that is how it works in my head. IS has yet to reach out to me to design the systems for them, oddly enough.

    Everything you mention I wouldn't be against that concept, but guess we will just have to wait and see what actually happens in A2.
  • beapobeapo Member
    I doubt you can succesfully prevent alchemy being fully discovered and then published on the internet but you can surely slow the discoverbility down so much that it would take multiple months or even years to fully figure it out.

    Ways to slow it down:

    Have Alchemy levels and restrict recipes to certain levels.
    Say you put a+b+c together on alchemy level 1 and nothing happens but put it together on alchemy level 10 and you will actually get an item out of it. You could also make that somewhat easier by giving a hint in chat like "there is a reaction but the timing wasn't right" or something like that.

    Next you could make it so that successrate is way lower for items you haven't discovered yet.
    Here you could also give a text hint that the level and the ingredients are right but you just failed

    Another way to slow it down would be that you need higher tiered items and those higher tiered items are tied to the development of the node.

    As you said "Alchemy being specific to a node" would only make logical sense to me when for example, only a scientific node has a building like an "Alchemy lab" that can be build.

    Other restrictions I could think of would be biome specific alchemy, season specific alchemy and maybe even weather specific alchemy.
    In my head it sounds really cool that some alchemy only succeeds when you do it in the middle of the desert when there is a thunderstorm and everytime you succeed there comes a lightning down that strikes you or something like that :smiley:

    It would also be kinda cool if the devs could hide some hints for really difficult alchemy recipes hidden on a wall at some of those jumping puzzles they showed a couple months before and maybe if you put those hints together from every jumping puzzle in the game you actually have the full recipe for it.
    This could potentially bring the whole community together to work on it because I think they said that the jumping puzzles are also tied to a specific node being developed, so you would need multiple different servers to work on it to solve the alchemy puzzle.

    Of course not everyone likes that idea but I love something like that cause stories like that would build a strong community :sweat_smile:
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Perhaps they can have alchemy/potions whose creation and use are subject to certain game conditions which will vary from server to server.

    For example, on Server #1 the XYZ religion is dominant, which allows a strong anti-demonic potion to be crafted in the temple of a level 5 religious node. On Server #2, where ABC religion dominates, then an anti-holy potion can be crafted, but not the anti-demonic one.

    Another example could be a strong potion increasing the strength of Tanks exists in theory, but it can only be crafted on a server which contains two level 5 military nodes. Or a potion which increases the duration of a Rogue's stealth mode requires the server's Bounty Hunter and Thieves guilds to both be at maximum level.

    These examples, and many other potential ones, would result in a different set of alchemical potions existing on each server, and at different times on a given server. As a result, the potion recipes posted out-of-game would not be craftable on many servers thus making such listings less relevant.
  • DreuguiDreugui Member
    Hi !
    Me i'd like too see, a mixe betwin the system of Kingdom Come: Deliverance and Skyrim and looks like @tautau want ( I think ) .
    The system would be like :
    - Every Alchimist obtain a compedium ( blank at fisrt ), this compedium will be used to store, potion and ingredient properties.
    - Like skyrim each ingredient can have multiple propertise ( carfull so , it can be Only one or for extrem ten ) ( so In skyrim the alchimy have been simplify, but if you read, you see that it's not so whole ingredient that have each propertiese but, petal, stem, and root may have each one propertie ) and that where the next point come in
    - the Kingdom Come: Deliverance alchemic system :
    - each ingredient can be treated differently ! do you boild it , grind it , put it as it ? water or oil ?
    - like that, alchimy potion COULD be discovered by research only, BUT, finding an old piece of book with old recipe would be faster, and maybe even tell you that some ingredien that have the same propertise, when put together nullifise or boost each other, well basicly from that moment you could do so complexity it could be a game by itslef ! finding each ingredient can or can't be put together , wich effect can have each ingredient, and they can differs if treated différently ! base on temperature, time proces , etc...

    BUT, the big question is : Is it the view that the devs want ? that steven want ? more like Kingdom Come: Deliverance or more like skyrim ?
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    beapo wrote: »
    I doubt you can successfully prevent alchemy being fully discovered and then published on the internet but you can surely slow the discoverability down so much that it would take multiple months or even years to fully figure it out.

    I guess I was coming from the angle of keeping discovery server-wide or node wide for the reason games in recent years do not require thought or memory. Discovery requires trial and error and communication part of the spirit of gaming past!


  • tautau wrote: »
    'Trial and Error' would make discovery of recipes nearly impossible ... Unless there was a discoverable and logical theory behind potion crafting/alchemy/cooking and other crafts.

    Let's use a potion for causing an explosion where fire sticks to your enemies for some period of time for an example. This potion will require 'something that explodes' + 'something which burns' + 'something sticky' to succeed. 'Things that explode' in the world might include things like remnants from desert mobs (dropped from hunting) or 'remnants from lightning strikes' (found from burnt trees in mountains). 'Things that burn' might include 'pine resin sap' (gathered while making lumber in a sawmill) or 'swamp oil' (gathered in swamps). 'Sticky things' might include honey (from gardening) or pig shit (from ranching), with a variety of each type of thing of varying quality available in the world. Gather one from each group, stir them up, and you have a potion! The crafter's skill and the quality of each ingredient would impact the power of the potion. For example, animal husbandry could lead to huge pigs which produce magnificent shit and a better potion.

    Another example might be in cooking where you need 'a crust' (requiring wheat, corn or other similar), 'a fruit' (apples, peaches, farkleberries, etc.) and 'a sweetener' (honey, crushed beets, sugar cane). Your cooking skill and the quality of the ingredients would make a pie which provides a beneficial buff.

    So, do you see my point? Crafting of whatever consumable type the game may provide will require logic-based materials of various types. Higher level crafters will make better consumables. Higher quality ingredients will lead to better consumables. Particular combinations might have bonuses (wheat crust, sugar from cane from a distant Island and peaches from cultivated trees at least 10 game years old = great pie with a great, long-lasting buff).

    All of this could be discoverable in-game and the wisest crafters will not share their secrets on youtube!

    Interesting take. Alternatively not a quality of the ingredients, a state, something that isn't intuitive but still semi-logical. Like varying degrees of ripeness, hardness, color, location of ingredient like you said, ect.

    A fully ripe strawberry from the Asia zone with blue corn doesn't make as strong of a food as a partially ripe strawberry with purple corn, but it's still better than a fully ripe strawberry with purple corn and way better than a fully ripe strawberry from the Asia zone with purple corn.

    You can still have recipes like they want in the game which come from many different sources, and a universal recipe from a cook or something that gives the base recipe(strawberry and corn. Shut up i'm not a cook lol), along with a system like that. It's only that a part of the recipes that come from many different sources in the game are only a part of the ways to make it.

    You can also mix and match effects on things somewhat like that. Augmented food if you will.

    It would keep things incredibly fresh for quite some time in the game.

  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sounds a bit like New World crafing setup.. loved theirs
  • akabear wrote: »
    beapo wrote: »
    I doubt you can successfully prevent alchemy being fully discovered and then published on the internet but you can surely slow the discoverability down so much that it would take multiple months or even years to fully figure it out.

    I guess I was coming from the angle of keeping discovery server-wide or node wide for the reason games in recent years do not require thought or memory. Discovery requires trial and error and communication part of the spirit of gaming past!


    I don't think people would be comfortable with node wide, but server wide makes complete sense.

    Combo that with an incredibly complex crafting system(at least for food and potions), and you could potentially push back things being public knowledge for a year or so, maybe even long enough for a server wipe and reset on the crafting system.

    I would absolutely love to see such a thing.
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