Character Class Balancing

Hello, at the start of this I just want to say I am putting this message forward because I love MMORPG games. But for a long time now I have become disenchanted by the lack comprehensiveness that I would like to see from a room full of well intending game developers.

Something I can not get over is that balancing is something that should be quite simple to understand how to do if you are considering all of the appropriate variables. It's undoubtedly not easy to measure out a dynamic combat system which is inherently balanced as well but all it takes is a little creativity and some careful consideration. In the call for balance, people look for direct correspondences. If you can deal 1000 damage in a time frame I should be able to, in that same frame of time, create an effect of an EQUIVALENT value. I have a lot of creative ideas how to change the damage and shielding and healing effects so that it is dynamic and would love to share more if you're interested. But the premise is very simple. And in my opinion its foolish to balance the game around any number of individuals who would have to come together. The individual is the most marginalized demographic and the more the game caters to the individual, the more the player engages the gaming environment as if it were it's own arbiter of fairness. The players need to feel the fairness at every level where it matters. Just one class that doesnt have a respectable foot hold in PVP imo represents an entire demographic of people that will lose passion to play the game when they find out the favorite Theme is Weak. The classes should have an identical capacity for damage and self preservation in PVP. And the game needs to be foremost designed around PVP. Without a level playing field elitism will reign supreme with the "Are you even trying attitudes" of meta gamers. It's very easy to augment a dungeon, or to add in some dungeon specific buff system which compensates for any short comings in the world environment. But if two players of unique classes come against each other to fight and one of them has a clear disadvantage ALL the time and it's not because they are good, then people feel some kind of way about that. I know I do. If you want the kind of game that would overtake WoW, it's my personal belief that you have to nail this. Even when WoW did the rock paper scissors design, I was still able to overcome the classes that were considered my weakness and that made the game so much more fun for me as a PVPer. I would love to be of help, hell I'd love to work for you guys even lol... I won't get my hopes up though but I will keep my creative concepts on standby if you want to pick my brain on this at all. Much love and I wish the best for this game.
P.S. I give this game free advertisement all the time at my work. Don't worry I tell it will be a couple years before it's lol...

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tautau

I'm guessing 5 or 6 years after release.

Ludullu

tautau wrote: »

I'm guessing 5 or 6 years after release.

So iirc right around when we got healer transforms. So a bit easier than it was before, but still a great achievement cause even with that transform you had to know your enemy's limits on dmg to properly use the transform.

Killendel

Depraved wrote: »

Killendel wrote: »

The classes should have an identical capacity for damage and self preservation in PVP.

not at all..so every class is the same? lol

I can see a legitimate concern for healers and tanks, but healing and tanking in PVP should be watered down to begin with. Tanking is so very circumstantial and difficult to impose and healing is too commonly overpowered. Finding a happier medium with tanky and healy classes would be best, instead of relying upon them entirely. Every class would have a little of everything but each class would specialize in either Damage dealing, Sturdiness, or restoration, wow is basically already like this I just think they haven't conceptualized 0 point balancing.

If you were to balance on a scale, you would put objects on both sides until they cancelled each other out. As long as the measurement of value is being assessed properly, and translated among all the classes, you could slice and dice this a million different ways, and honestly if it was done properly I think it would be the new standard in conceptual design of combat systems.

Killendel

"Yeah, this is where the party balancing comes in. You can be a "dagger" party, but in reality you'd only have 2-3 daggers out of your 9-man party. With all the other characters being "supports" against different possible situations."

This is the kind of stuff I would never play, and I dont think most people would. Most people play games to have fun, and a big part of having fun is doing the things you WANT to do for whatever aesthetic reason you might choose to. Few people have experienced the glorious synergies of end game party based pvp play to the extent they are willing to sacrifice literally every other component of what they would have normally chosen to enjoy in the game to begin with. All for the sake of sucking up to the meta or at least to feel like you aren't a bad player. And what makes that shit painful is having to reroll class compositions. Now you cant just accept your friends, you gotta put em in a box. Or do they even care? Are they even your friend if they dont reroll because the class they truly wanted to pick wasnt effective for some reason? If thats your style of game all the more to you. But I think its very UN-MMO like to have enforce particular restrictions on characters that leave people compelled to roll a new character to cope with it or to even have to change their spec because its not the identifiable best damage spec. This is exactly how meta gaming has ruined the social dynamic of gaming imo. No longer are you immersed in your characters theme, you're too busy falling in line with the authority of your class on some youtube video to even have fun in your own discovery process, its so miserable.

JamesSunderland

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Can you elaborate on this?

The more I look into L2's balancing, the more I find that it does not fit MY subjective definition of 'just fine' at all...

Most parties were usually dagger/mage (with a few variations of mages)/archer/fighters. In the context of somewhat equal gear, any party could usually kill any other party. Most of the time it came down to party skill and cooperation. In 1v1 pvp, daggers would usually kill mages, mages would usually kill fighters, fighters would usually kill daggers, with archers probably being the most rng ones cause they had huge crits and if you got a few of them in a row then you'd usually win (or if your stun landed) but if you didn't get lucky - you'd quite often die. Oh, and as for supports/tanks - you'd either just lose or be so OEd that you'd manage to kill your opponent through perseverance.

At least that's the matchups as how I remember them. Later updates brought a bit more variety to the game with a whole new race that had fairly OP abilities and could fit in several different parties, so the party pvp became even more equal, while 1v1s got even deeper into all kinds of RPS-like fights.

@George_Black @JamesSunderland am I remembering correctly? Was your experience different? I did mostly play on private servers, so official ones could've been quite different.

Depends alot on which version of L2 you would be talking, the main division would be Pre-Kamael Era and Post-Kamael Era.

Pre-Kamael Era class Balance regarding parties(on similar gear) was,
Archers Destroyed Fighters in open areas but gets destroyed by Fighters in closed areas,
Fighters Destroy Archers and Mages in closed areas but gets destroyed by Mages and Archers in Open Areas.
Mages Beind the most reliable for both Closed and Open Areas but not necessarily exceeding in any, the one with the most AoEs and Many consider the best Pre-Kamael Era Class,
Daggers being quite a wild card that could trump all the others was better for closed places, but the class who most relied on RNG and lacked in AoE and therefore was less impactful in larger encounters and was simple excelent in smaller ones, The class who changed the least from pre-kamael era to post kamael era.
Talking supports would be irrelevant for class balance regarding parties as every single party had said supports(usually 5 of the 9 party slots) .

Considering 1v1 (similar gear) Daggers were king, followed right after by Fighters, then mages, then archers and then supports.

You might be asking, why divide it in Pre-Kamael and Post-Kamael Era?
Its because of how broken Kamaels were especially Doombringer(fighter) and Trickster(Archer), no matter what your party composition was, if your party did not had atleast 1 Doombringer and 1 Trickster, you party setup was instantly worse than a party setup that had them, basically throwing a wrench in the party balance cogs til Freya Version.

Killendel

NiKr wrote: »

Killendel wrote: »

Yeah man, I'm making an appeal cause I see it going down a road I think it shouldn't. I thought I read some where it was a PVP oriented game? If that's true. 8 man balancing will be catastrophic.

L2 was one of the best pvp mmos out there (best imo). It was balanced around party play (9-man btw). Classes had an RPS balancing, with some of them being quite OP at times. It worked out just fine.

WoW Vanilla was the best. No one had data mined the game yet which was mainly the reason I think for that but if you make a CLEARLY balanced game then no amount of data mining would dictate the way people choose to play it. No more does it require insider information to make sure you are significant enough within the game to do your "job". What a relief that would be right?

Mag7spy

I wouldn't really expect at the moment any class winning like Rock paper scissors, its too early to judge at the moment how things will actually play out. Also Older games and modern games generally have different balance and skill ceilings even more so for the fact you will have action combat options in this game. There can be a lot of potential outplay akin to a fighting game, and you can have that sense when you go try hard and can wreck a bunch of people. We will will have to see more of the combat and how things work, and play it.

SirChancelot

Mag7spy wrote: »

I wouldn't really expect at the moment any class winning like Rock paper scissors, its too early to judge at the moment how things will actually play out. Also Older games and modern games generally have different balance and skill ceilings even more so for the fact you will have action combat options in this game. There can be a lot of potential outplay akin to a fighting game, and you can have that sense when you go try hard and can wreck a bunch of people. We will will have to see more of the combat and how things work, and play it.

I'm pretty sure they said it was going to be rock paper scissors 'esque and honestly it makes sense for some classes to work that way.

bloodprophet

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes
Balancing

Balancing in Ashes of Creation is group focused not based on 1v1 combat.[2][15]

1v1 matchups will have a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, where one class will be superior to another.[15]

There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[15] – Steven Sharif

No esque to it.

Stop playing GW2. MMO's are supposed to be group play NOT, look eyes NOT single player games. By their very nature they are supposed to be that way.
I hate games where everyone is a carbon copy of everyone else, at best a copy with different colors.
Every thing about Ashe's is about the community working together to build and destroy.

Ludullu

Killendel wrote: »

WoW Vanilla was the best. No one had data mined the game yet which was mainly the reason I think for that but if you make a CLEARLY balanced game then no amount of data mining would dictate the way people choose to play it. No more does it require insider information to make sure you are significant enough within the game to do your "job". What a relief that would be right?

I honestly got no real clue what either of your posts mean (your previous post here was quoting me too). L2 didn't limit what or how you played. If anything, the RPS of classes and a somewhat decent balance of parties meant that you could play whoever you wanted and would be valued for it. On top of that, supports were valued so damn much that they'd always find a party (which is somewhat of a rarity from what I've heard from other mmos).

And I don't recall the game being datamined or there being some exact meta. Yes, there were some classes that were stronger than others for some period of time, but, as I said in another post, those classes would get nerfed later so it wasn't like everyone just played the most OP thing. Though obviously some did because they just wanted to be the OP guy around instead of just playing for fun. But that's the case in every game.

Veeshan

will definelty be more balanced around group play some classes will excel at 1v1 or small scale where other will excel in larger scales i would think.

Support rolls like bard for example would probaly be fairly weak 1v1 or 2v2 scenarios but will probaly be amazing in full groups.
That being said in games like this you can often see support rolls/classes outplay 1v1 classes at times and win it just harder to do but your not meant to be doing 1v1s realy as those classes.
I feel the stronger guilds in ashes will be the ones that get solid group comps down rather than mish mash of what ever.

Mag7spy

SirChancelot wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I wouldn't really expect at the moment any class winning like Rock paper scissors, its too early to judge at the moment how things will actually play out. Also Older games and modern games generally have different balance and skill ceilings even more so for the fact you will have action combat options in this game. There can be a lot of potential outplay akin to a fighting game, and you can have that sense when you go try hard and can wreck a bunch of people. We will will have to see more of the combat and how things work, and play it.

I'm pretty sure they said it was going to be rock paper scissors 'esque and honestly it makes sense for some classes to work that way.

I wouldn't bank on that until you see how the game actually plays its not simple when action combat stuff is involved with dodge and blocking. If you are out playing people (at a often rate) it isn't rock paper scissors.

SirChancelot

Mag7spy wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I wouldn't really expect at the moment any class winning like Rock paper scissors, its too early to judge at the moment how things will actually play out. Also Older games and modern games generally have different balance and skill ceilings even more so for the fact you will have action combat options in this game. There can be a lot of potential outplay akin to a fighting game, and you can have that sense when you go try hard and can wreck a bunch of people. We will will have to see more of the combat and how things work, and play it.

I'm pretty sure they said it was going to be rock paper scissors 'esque and honestly it makes sense for some classes to work that way.

I wouldn't bank on that until you see how the game actually plays its not simple when action combat stuff is involved with dodge and blocking. If you are out playing people (at a often rate) it isn't rock paper scissors.

Blood prophet found it

bloodprophet wrote: »

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes
Balancing

Balancing in Ashes of Creation is group focused not based on 1v1 combat.[2][15]

1v1 matchups will have a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, where one class will be superior to another.[15]

There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[15] – Steven Sharif

No esque to it.

Thanks I couldn't remember where it was

Killendel

Not in a game where balance is really the focal point.

Killendel

bloodprophet wrote: »

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes
Balancing

Balancing in Ashes of Creation is group focused not based on 1v1 combat.[2][15]

1v1 matchups will have a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, where one class will be superior to another.[15]

There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[15] – Steven Sharif

No esque to it.

Stop playing GW2. MMO's are supposed to be group play NOT, look eyes NOT single player games. By their very nature they are supposed to be that way.
I hate games where everyone is a carbon copy of everyone else, at best a copy with different colors.
Every thing about Ashe's is about the community working together to build and destroy.

If I'm not mistaken PVP has the biggest player base, and MMORPG are not just RPG. There is a massive multiplayer dynamic and its not too hard to cater to both aspects. I find it hard to believe you can do both an 8 person group balancing focus AND rock paper scissors. In either event I would prefer bringing the balance focus to the individual character level. It's ideal imo and it doesnt seem to me like it would be impossible to do.

George_Black

The OP has a false perception of balance. Further more his desire for all classes to be able to deal, let's say, 1000 dmg in, let's say, 3 seconds is wrong. It is also wrong that he desires that all classes should be self-preserved in combat and that 1v1 (every class by itself [which is loved by players]) should be the focus instead of a group of people.

L2 did a great job with classes. But the reason of its success wasn't in its beautiful classes themselves. It was in the games content. It didn't have PvE in the form of dps racing instanced raiding and it didn't have instanced PvP arenas.

Each class was useful not in pvp, not in 1v1, not in siege, not in pve, not in all these little concepts that people focus so narrowly minded. All the classes of L2 shined because they found their function in:
(Fuck I can't believe that I will sit down and write all this...)
All the classes found their function in:

Fighters:

1) Gladiator, dual swords. Best looking attacks, good for early/mid solo lv up. A pro gladiator that wouldn't miss a beat while executing the classes abilities; without making any mistakes, would win 1000000% in 1v1.

2) Warlord, polearm. AoE stuns. Best class while inside the throne room of a castle. The best warlords would determine which guilds get to attack and own a castle. Not to mention any other pvp in tight areas: caves, catacombs, etc etc etc.

2) Paladin, sword/shield. Best tank to raid epic world bosses because it could take the punishment and also save groups if something went wrong.

3) Dark Avenger, sword/shield. One of the best PvP tanks together with Shillien Knight. The Dark Avenger was every edgelords dream class, with shield stun, drain health, and a dark panther summon that dealt huge dps. The Dark Avenger had an ability that if it was landed on any fighter except for a tank it meant 100% game over. It could.. "silence" physical attacks. Only an endgame gladiator had a chance of reflecting this course on the Dark Avenger, so when these two where fighting 1v1 you would see a very very strategic choice of skills being used. The dark avenger could also return physical dmg back at the attacker.

4) Treasure Hunter/Abyss Walker, Plains Walker, dagger/dual dagger Assassin's that could mark the most important enemy in PvP and guarantee their death. Then they could slip away. Fairly good in 1v1. Not good in PvE but could unlock hidden areas. They all had their flavour, one for humans, one for D. elves and one for elves. For me the most important function of the assassins where their ability to locate enemy guilds or groups, using their toolkit silent move, fake death, trick to bypass mobs. If you saw an enemy assassin looking at you and your friends you knew that soon you'd be attacked by overwhelming forces.

5) Hawkeye, Phantom Ranger, Silver Ranger. Archers. Nouf said. Together with the mages, the archers where the best pve dps classes, the best classes to defend the castle walls during sieges (or any scenario that elevation was a factor. The archers were also good at locking in on targets one by one and pretty much guarantee their death, unless it was a tank because tanks had boosted arrow and magic defences. If you were a player that wanted to farm kills you either had an archer or a mage.

6) Shillien Knight, sword shield. A pro Shillien Knight could ambush an enemy group during PvE and take them all down by himself. This dark elf class had curses, slows, confusion and misdirection skills, a beautiful lightning strike attack that paralyzed enemies, could drain health, poison and bleed enemies. The shillien knight could summon up to 3 orbs that acted independently, one would double down on curses and weakening effects, one would double down on drain health and the last would double down on dot dmg. One of my best friends was plaining a shillien knight and I would just sit back and watch him as he played the keyboard like a piano and was killing ALONE enemies, no matter if it was 1v2 1v3 1v4 and once 1v5, no matter if they wore better gear or if they were higher lv.

7) Temple Knight, sword/shield. Unkillable. Boring elf tank but it was unkillable.

8) Bladedancer, dual swords. The best support if your group was consistent of aggressive classes, like assassins archers and mages. It would buff their dmg big time. You needed a BD both for PvE and PvP. If you didn't had one, might as well had stayed lv10 and just roleplayed. The BD could spect into magic dmg, use a shield and a magical sword and kite/cheese people and win a fair bit of opponents in 1v1.
9) Sword Singer, sword shield. Support that boosted mostly defenses but it also boosted crit rate and reduced allies skill re-use time as well as costs. Personally if I had to choose between BD or SwS I would choose the elven support over the d. elf. The Sword Singer complemented by powerful Gladiator attacks but it also covered my lackluster defense.

10) Destroyer, two-handed weapon. The destroyer was a tanky orc class but once you made them angry all you had to do was run. If you couldn't slow them, the destroyers could catch up to you and kill you. The destroyers were the berserks of the game. Just picture a mad orc that doesn't feel pain and can certainly make you feel pain. A destroyers critical hit was the second hardest hitting attack.
11) Tyrant, first weapons. The tyrant was the martial arts orc class using devastating punches. The tyrant could solo high lv mobs, and was a fairly good dps and was almost top in 1v1 pvp. Gladiators and tyrants were similar, but a pro gladiator would win against a pro tyrant, even though under stress, gladiators were more complicated to play than any other class.

12) Warsmith, axe/mace/shield. The class of the leaders. The warsmith was the only crafter of the game. The warsmith had large amounts of HP and could summon speampunk machines for pvp and pve. One of them was a colossal golem that was needed to take down castle walls. Good enough in PvP
13) Bounty Hunter, axe/mace/shield. This was the gatherer of the game. Without a bounty hunter in your group you wouldn't be able to find any important materials, gear designs and parts. Good enough in pvp.

Wizards:

1) Sorcerer, fire attacks. One of the mage classes, which have great dps, great kill farmers and great castle defenders. The sorcerer with another mage could remove buffs from players which was basically a death sentence in L2. Due to being the fire mage, the sorcerers where the best DPS for the Ant Queen epic raid boss.

2) Spell Howler hurricane attacks. The class with the highest dmg in the game. Nouf said. No, I lied. The Spell Howler together with another mage had the unique silence course, which if landed on your groups healer it meant game over. Also, if you were a mage you would never win against a spell howler.

3) Spell Singer, water, ice and lightning attacks. This mage was the quickest caster of the game. Just like the other mages, it was the best dps choice for pve raiding or xp grinding, as well as the best wall defender during siege. Kill farmer as well.

4) Necromancer, death. Together with the Dark Avenger, this was the most hated class. The necromancer shares all the characteristics of the nukers: great dps, good wall defender, and kill farmer. The usual pew pew classes that coward from a distance and shoot. However the Necromancer was the tankiest mage because of his annoying death-related summons, with which he transferred pain. Also the necromancer had the silence curse of the spell howler and another curse, that took a fair bit to cast but would result almost always in total paralysis for 2-3 minutes.

5) Warcryer, life drain magic and melee axe/mace/shield. Another class of the leaders. The warcryer together with the other orc support class which I will name next, where the best buffers of the game. AoE, long lasting buffs for the group. In L2 you needed a quick buffer and the orcs where the best. One of the top 1v1 classes.
6) Overlord, life drain magic and melee axe/mace/shield. Another class of the leaders. This class could give the basic buffs that every class needed. But not single target. Not group AoE. This class could buff the whole alliance. In addition to that, the overlord would AoE debuff, course or CC enemies. One of the top 1v1 classes.
7) Warlock, cat summoner. This class would summon the most ugly and cartoonish summons. One of them booster crit rate and dmg for the group which was necessary if DPS was needed. The summoners, except the necromancer or the dark avenger, could summon one by one part members to their location, as well as instantly teleport the whole party to the nearest town. One of the top 1v1 classes.

8) Elemental Summoner. This class would summon Unicorns. One of them had the best AoE dmg and together with the Warlord class which AoE stunned, the summoner was one of them main classes needed for a guild that aimed to own or defend a castle. No1 for pve xp grind. No1. One of the top if not even better than the gladiator in 1v1.

9) Phantom summoner. Top solo xp class. One of the best 1v1 classes. I would call this the loners class. Would summon shadowy silhouettes.

10) Bishop. Most powerful healer and debuff remover.
11) Prophet. Human buffer. The best option for a small group of fighters that wanted the best stats. In mass PvP, the Prophet would give all players, one by one, it's unique buff. The berserker spirit boosted aggression and harmed defenses. Every mage needed that unique buff. The prophet had early access to acumen (increase casting speed).

12) Elven Elder. A mix between healer and buffer. The unique buff of the elven elder was stun resistance. In mass pvp, everybody would present themselves to the elven elder to receive the stun resistance buff. Another great buff that was kinda unique to elven elders was the clarity buff that reduced mp consumtion for skills. The Elven Elder could restore MP. One of the top 1v1 classes.

13) Shillien Elder. The shillien elder was the buffer of the magic focused group but it could also find a spot in fighters pve groups. The shilien elder could heal a bit, restore MP and had a unique defuff that made the cursed to receive more physical critical hits. The shillien elder had early access to empower (increase magic attack). One of the top 1v1 classes.

George_Black

L2 didn't had instanced pvp or pve.

L2 had only this great feature of instanced 1v1 matches. The best players of each class would become a Hero at the end of each month, and receive hero weapons, global chat, unique skills and shop access.
Everybody could play their class and feel it was the best class.
Why? Because L2 didn't focus on instanced gameplay. It focused on open world pvp and pve.
And as you see from my list above EVERY CLASS HAD A FUNCTION BOTH IN PVP AND IN PVE.

To me that's real play as you want. Real class identity. Gladiator was No1 in 1v1 with it's dualswords? Well my friend that was playing Shillien Knight went one step further. He played the gladiator with axe/shield and would never lose in 1v1. Real play as you want.

So yeah, if some people want every class to hold every weapon, wear every armor, deal the same dmg per sec, have the same survivability, same CCs same same same same same same same with different animations, they should go play instanced PvP BG and instanced PvE raiding in ESO wow, ff14 etc etc etc etc etc. They are ignorant as to what "class" means in mmos. They dont even know what mmo means.

I became a gladiator by accident in L2. I found out it was shit in group pvp. It was shit in mass pvp. It was shit in unorganized small scale pvp. But I found my calling in 1v1 and organized open world pve/pvp.
When we got attacked while raiding I would turn around and PvP. I let the dps to better classes than me. I would die or be outshined, but I would succesfully use my tools to protect the raid. My group would get the XP and loot or something related to a quest.

My calling was the spectacle of 1v1. Endless challenges on who is the best gladiator.

Killendel

George_Black wrote: »

The OP has a false perception of balance. Further more his desire for all classes to be able to deal, let's say, 1000 dmg in, let's say, 3 seconds is wrong. It is also wrong that he desires that all classes should be self-preserved in combat and that 1v1 (every class by itself [which is loved by players]) should be the focus instead of a group of people.

L2 did a great job with classes. But the reason of its success wasn't in its beautiful classes themselves. It was in the games content. It didn't have PvE in the form of dps racing instanced raiding and it didn't have instanced PvP arenas.

Each class was useful not in pvp, not in 1v1, not in siege, not in pve, not in all these little concepts that people focus so narrowly minded. All the classes of L2 shined because they found their function in:
(Fuck I can't believe that I will sit down and write all this...)
All the classes found their function in:

Fighters:

1) Gladiator, dual swords. Best looking attacks, good for early/mid solo lv up. A pro gladiator that wouldn't miss a beat while executing the classes abilities; without making any mistakes, would win 1000000% in 1v1.

2) Warlord, polearm. AoE stuns. Best class while inside the throne room of a castle. The best warlords would determine which guilds get to attack and own a castle. Not to mention any other pvp in tight areas: caves, catacombs, etc etc etc.

2) Paladin, sword/shield. Best tank to raid epic world bosses because it could take the punishment and also save groups if something went wrong.

3) Dark Avenger, sword/shield. One of the best PvP tanks together with Shillien Knight. The Dark Avenger was every edgelords dream class, with shield stun, drain health, and a dark panther summon that dealt huge dps. The Dark Avenger had an ability that if it was landed on any fighter except for a tank it meant 100% game over. It could.. "silence" physical attacks. Only an endgame gladiator had a chance of reflecting this course on the Dark Avenger, so when these two where fighting 1v1 you would see a very very strategic choice of skills being used. The dark avenger could also return physical dmg back at the attacker.

4) Treasure Hunter/Abyss Walker, Plains Walker, dagger/dual dagger Assassin's that could mark the most important enemy in PvP and guarantee their death. Then they could slip away. Fairly good in 1v1. Not good in PvE but could unlock hidden areas. They all had their flavour, one for humans, one for D. elves and one for elves. For me the most important function of the assassins where their ability to locate enemy guilds or groups, using their toolkit silent move, fake death, trick to bypass mobs. If you saw an enemy assassin looking at you and your friends you knew that soon you'd be attacked by overwhelming forces.

5) Hawkeye, Phantom Ranger, Silver Ranger. Archers. Nouf said. Together with the mages, the archers where the best pve dps classes, the best classes to defend the castle walls during sieges (or any scenario that elevation was a factor. The archers were also good at locking in on targets one by one and pretty much guarantee their death, unless it was a tank because tanks had boosted arrow and magic defences. If you were a player that wanted to farm kills you either had an archer or a mage.

6) Shillien Knight, sword shield. A pro Shillien Knight could ambush an enemy group during PvE and take them all down by himself. This dark elf class had curses, slows, confusion and misdirection skills, a beautiful lightning strike attack that paralyzed enemies, could drain health, poison and bleed enemies. The shillien knight could summon up to 3 orbs that acted independently, one would double down on curses and weakening effects, one would double down on drain health and the last would double down on dot dmg. One of my best friends was plaining a shillien knight and I would just sit back and watch him as he played the keyboard like a piano and was killing ALONE enemies, no matter if it was 1v2 1v3 1v4 and once 1v5, no matter if they wore better gear or if they were higher lv.

7) Temple Knight, sword/shield. Unkillable. Boring elf tank but it was unkillable.

8) Bladedancer, dual swords. The best support if your group was consistent of aggressive classes, like assassins archers and mages. It would buff their dmg big time. You needed a BD both for PvE and PvP. If you didn't had one, might as well had stayed lv10 and just roleplayed. The BD could spect into magic dmg, use a shield and a magical sword and kite/cheese people and win a fair bit of opponents in 1v1.
9) Sword Singer, sword shield. Support that boosted mostly defenses but it also boosted crit rate and reduced allies skill re-use time as well as costs. Personally if I had to choose between BD or SwS I would choose the elven support over the d. elf. The Sword Singer complemented by powerful Gladiator attacks but it also covered my lackluster defense.

10) Destroyer, two-handed weapon. The destroyer was a tanky orc class but once you made them angry all you had to do was run. If you couldn't slow them, the destroyers could catch up to you and kill you. The destroyers were the berserks of the game. Just picture a mad orc that doesn't feel pain and can certainly make you feel pain. A destroyers critical hit was the second hardest hitting attack.
11) Tyrant, first weapons. The tyrant was the martial arts orc class using devastating punches. The tyrant could solo high lv mobs, and was a fairly good dps and was almost top in 1v1 pvp. Gladiators and tyrants were similar, but a pro gladiator would win against a pro tyrant, even though under stress, gladiators were more complicated to play than any other class.

12) Warsmith, axe/mace/shield. The class of the leaders. The warsmith was the only crafter of the game. The warsmith had large amounts of HP and could summon speampunk machines for pvp and pve. One of them was a colossal golem that was needed to take down castle walls. Good enough in PvP
13) Bounty Hunter, axe/mace/shield. This was the gatherer of the game. Without a bounty hunter in your group you wouldn't be able to find any important materials, gear designs and parts. Good enough in pvp.

Wizards:

1) Sorcerer, fire attacks. One of the mage classes, which have great dps, great kill farmers and great castle defenders. The sorcerer with another mage could remove buffs from players which was basically a death sentence in L2. Due to being the fire mage, the sorcerers where the best DPS for the Ant Queen epic raid boss.

2) Spell Howler hurricane attacks. The class with the highest dmg in the game. Nouf said. No, I lied. The Spell Howler together with another mage had the unique silence course, which if landed on your groups healer it meant game over. Also, if you were a mage you would never win against a spell howler.

3) Spell Singer, water, ice and lightning attacks. This mage was the quickest caster of the game. Just like the other mages, it was the best dps choice for pve raiding or xp grinding, as well as the best wall defender during siege. Kill farmer as well.

4) Necromancer, death. Together with the Dark Avenger, this was the most hated class. The necromancer shares all the characteristics of the nukers: great dps, good wall defender, and kill farmer. The usual pew pew classes that coward from a distance and shoot. However the Necromancer was the tankiest mage because of his annoying death-related summons, with which he transferred pain. Also the necromancer had the silence curse of the spell howler and another curse, that took a fair bit to cast but would result almost always in total paralysis for 2-3 minutes.

5) Warcryer, life drain magic and melee axe/mace/shield. Another class of the leaders. The warcryer together with the other orc support class which I will name next, where the best buffers of the game. AoE, long lasting buffs for the group. In L2 you needed a quick buffer and the orcs where the best. One of the top 1v1 classes.
6) Overlord, life drain magic and melee axe/mace/shield. Another class of the leaders. This class could give the basic buffs that every class needed. But not single target. Not group AoE. This class could buff the whole alliance. In addition to that, the overlord would AoE debuff, course or CC enemies. One of the top 1v1 classes.
7) Warlock, cat summoner. This class would summon the most ugly and cartoonish summons. One of them booster crit rate and dmg for the group which was necessary if DPS was needed. The summoners, except the necromancer or the dark avenger, could summon one by one part members to their location, as well as instantly teleport the whole party to the nearest town. One of the top 1v1 classes.

8) Elemental Summoner. This class would summon Unicorns. One of them had the best AoE dmg and together with the Warlord class which AoE stunned, the summoner was one of them main classes needed for a guild that aimed to own or defend a castle. No1 for pve xp grind. No1. One of the top if not even better than the gladiator in 1v1.

9) Phantom summoner. Top solo xp class. One of the best 1v1 classes. I would call this the loners class. Would summon shadowy silhouettes.

10) Bishop. Most powerful healer and debuff remover.
11) Prophet. Human buffer. The best option for a small group of fighters that wanted the best stats. In mass PvP, the Prophet would give all players, one by one, it's unique buff. The berserker spirit boosted aggression and harmed defenses. Every mage needed that unique buff. The prophet had early access to acumen (increase casting speed).

12) Elven Elder. A mix between healer and buffer. The unique buff of the elven elder was stun resistance. In mass pvp, everybody would present themselves to the elven elder to receive the stun resistance buff. Another great buff that was kinda unique to elven elders was the clarity buff that reduced mp consumtion for skills. The Elven Elder could restore MP. One of the top 1v1 classes.

13) Shillien Elder. The shillien elder was the buffer of the magic focused group but it could also find a spot in fighters pve groups. The shilien elder could heal a bit, restore MP and had a unique defuff that made the cursed to receive more physical critical hits. The shillien elder had early access to empower (increase magic attack). One of the top 1v1 classes.

Here let me use the same debate powers you have. You are wrong.

Cat Quiver

Hey guys, first time poster here to tell you what I don't like about this game, how it should be changed, and why the developers are wrong post #673

Killendel

All of the Lineage 2 referencing has me concerned. It appears a core group of Lineage 2's player base seems to be interested in Ashes or maybe even be the inspiration for a lot of the developing team members. In all my life I have not heard of Lineage 2 so much. I feel like if this was a good idea, it would be an OBVIOUSLY a good idea which... emulating a game that had as small of a footprint as Lineage 2 had doesnt seem like the best move to me. No offense to anyone who played the game, or loved it or otherwise, but the game has never even been appealing enough for me try, both aesthetically, or game design wise. I will admit I havent really had the time or resources to measure out my design concept well enough to really demonstrate before a group of people. But I feel very strongly that a design concept of the nature I've described is the only way to go. Without Certifiable Balance among the classes themselves, then in PVP you will have an all too corruptible game theory for anyone to play under any sense of real free agency or fairness And that = Not Fun.

I seriously think that there has to be a way to balance down to the individual character, and that figuring it out is ESSENTIAL to creating a breakthrough MMO. If L2 was seriously that good, not only would I have heard more about it, I'd have played it. And main stay MMO's today would have copied their engine heavily, and it doesn't seem that way to me. I don't want to rain on anyone's creative parade whoever is apart of the development process, I just want to say like, if you are spending your money if you want this game to be a success would you not be willing to consider something new if it had the possibility of being a catalytic component of the game?

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