will definelty be more balanced around group play some classes will excel at 1v1 or small scale where other will excel in larger scales i would think.
Support rolls like bard for example would probaly be fairly weak 1v1 or 2v2 scenarios but will probaly be amazing in full groups.
That being said in games like this you can often see support rolls/classes outplay 1v1 classes at times and win it just harder to do but your not meant to be doing 1v1s realy as those classes.
I feel the stronger guilds in ashes will be the ones that get solid group comps down rather than mish mash of what ever.
I wouldn't really expect at the moment any class winning like Rock paper scissors, its too early to judge at the moment how things will actually play out. Also Older games and modern games generally have different balance and skill ceilings even more so for the fact you will have action combat options in this game. There can be a lot of potential outplay akin to a fighting game, and you can have that sense when you go try hard and can wreck a bunch of people. We will will have to see more of the combat and how things work, and play it.
I'm pretty sure they said it was going to be rock paper scissors 'esque and honestly it makes sense for some classes to work that way.
I wouldn't bank on that until you see how the game actually plays its not simple when action combat stuff is involved with dodge and blocking. If you are out playing people (at a often rate) it isn't rock paper scissors.
I wouldn't really expect at the moment any class winning like Rock paper scissors, its too early to judge at the moment how things will actually play out. Also Older games and modern games generally have different balance and skill ceilings even more so for the fact you will have action combat options in this game. There can be a lot of potential outplay akin to a fighting game, and you can have that sense when you go try hard and can wreck a bunch of people. We will will have to see more of the combat and how things work, and play it.
I'm pretty sure they said it was going to be rock paper scissors 'esque and honestly it makes sense for some classes to work that way.
I wouldn't bank on that until you see how the game actually plays its not simple when action combat stuff is involved with dodge and blocking. If you are out playing people (at a often rate) it isn't rock paper scissors.
Balancing in Ashes of Creation is group focused not based on 1v1 combat.[2][15]
1v1 matchups will have a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, where one class will be superior to another.[15]
There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[15] – Steven Sharif
Balancing in Ashes of Creation is group focused not based on 1v1 combat.[2][15]
1v1 matchups will have a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, where one class will be superior to another.[15]
There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[15] – Steven Sharif
No esque to it.
Stop playing GW2. MMO's are supposed to be group play NOT, look eyes NOT single player games. By their very nature they are supposed to be that way.
I hate games where everyone is a carbon copy of everyone else, at best a copy with different colors.
Every thing about Ashe's is about the community working together to build and destroy.
If I'm not mistaken PVP has the biggest player base, and MMORPG are not just RPG. There is a massive multiplayer dynamic and its not too hard to cater to both aspects. I find it hard to believe you can do both an 8 person group balancing focus AND rock paper scissors. In either event I would prefer bringing the balance focus to the individual character level. It's ideal imo and it doesnt seem to me like it would be impossible to do.
The OP has a false perception of balance. Further more his desire for all classes to be able to deal, let's say, 1000 dmg in, let's say, 3 seconds is wrong. It is also wrong that he desires that all classes should be self-preserved in combat and that 1v1 (every class by itself [which is loved by players]) should be the focus instead of a group of people.
L2 did a great job with classes. But the reason of its success wasn't in its beautiful classes themselves. It was in the games content. It didn't have PvE in the form of dps racing instanced raiding and it didn't have instanced PvP arenas.
Each class was useful not in pvp, not in 1v1, not in siege, not in pve, not in all these little concepts that people focus so narrowly minded. All the classes of L2 shined because they found their function in:
(Fuck I can't believe that I will sit down and write all this...)
All the classes found their function in:
Fighters:
1) Gladiator, dual swords. Best looking attacks, good for early/mid solo lv up. A pro gladiator that wouldn't miss a beat while executing the classes abilities; without making any mistakes, would win 1000000% in 1v1.
2) Warlord, polearm. AoE stuns. Best class while inside the throne room of a castle. The best warlords would determine which guilds get to attack and own a castle. Not to mention any other pvp in tight areas: caves, catacombs, etc etc etc.
2) Paladin, sword/shield. Best tank to raid epic world bosses because it could take the punishment and also save groups if something went wrong.
3) Dark Avenger, sword/shield. One of the best PvP tanks together with Shillien Knight. The Dark Avenger was every edgelords dream class, with shield stun, drain health, and a dark panther summon that dealt huge dps. The Dark Avenger had an ability that if it was landed on any fighter except for a tank it meant 100% game over. It could.. "silence" physical attacks. Only an endgame gladiator had a chance of reflecting this course on the Dark Avenger, so when these two where fighting 1v1 you would see a very very strategic choice of skills being used. The dark avenger could also return physical dmg back at the attacker.
4) Treasure Hunter/Abyss Walker, Plains Walker, dagger/dual dagger Assassin's that could mark the most important enemy in PvP and guarantee their death. Then they could slip away. Fairly good in 1v1. Not good in PvE but could unlock hidden areas. They all had their flavour, one for humans, one for D. elves and one for elves. For me the most important function of the assassins where their ability to locate enemy guilds or groups, using their toolkit silent move, fake death, trick to bypass mobs. If you saw an enemy assassin looking at you and your friends you knew that soon you'd be attacked by overwhelming forces.
5) Hawkeye, Phantom Ranger, Silver Ranger. Archers. Nouf said. Together with the mages, the archers where the best pve dps classes, the best classes to defend the castle walls during sieges (or any scenario that elevation was a factor. The archers were also good at locking in on targets one by one and pretty much guarantee their death, unless it was a tank because tanks had boosted arrow and magic defences. If you were a player that wanted to farm kills you either had an archer or a mage.
6) Shillien Knight, sword shield. A pro Shillien Knight could ambush an enemy group during PvE and take them all down by himself. This dark elf class had curses, slows, confusion and misdirection skills, a beautiful lightning strike attack that paralyzed enemies, could drain health, poison and bleed enemies. The shillien knight could summon up to 3 orbs that acted independently, one would double down on curses and weakening effects, one would double down on drain health and the last would double down on dot dmg. One of my best friends was plaining a shillien knight and I would just sit back and watch him as he played the keyboard like a piano and was killing ALONE enemies, no matter if it was 1v2 1v3 1v4 and once 1v5, no matter if they wore better gear or if they were higher lv.
7) Temple Knight, sword/shield. Unkillable. Boring elf tank but it was unkillable.
8) Bladedancer, dual swords. The best support if your group was consistent of aggressive classes, like assassins archers and mages. It would buff their dmg big time. You needed a BD both for PvE and PvP. If you didn't had one, might as well had stayed lv10 and just roleplayed. The BD could spect into magic dmg, use a shield and a magical sword and kite/cheese people and win a fair bit of opponents in 1v1.
9) Sword Singer, sword shield. Support that boosted mostly defenses but it also boosted crit rate and reduced allies skill re-use time as well as costs. Personally if I had to choose between BD or SwS I would choose the elven support over the d. elf. The Sword Singer complemented by powerful Gladiator attacks but it also covered my lackluster defense.
10) Destroyer, two-handed weapon. The destroyer was a tanky orc class but once you made them angry all you had to do was run. If you couldn't slow them, the destroyers could catch up to you and kill you. The destroyers were the berserks of the game. Just picture a mad orc that doesn't feel pain and can certainly make you feel pain. A destroyers critical hit was the second hardest hitting attack.
11) Tyrant, first weapons. The tyrant was the martial arts orc class using devastating punches. The tyrant could solo high lv mobs, and was a fairly good dps and was almost top in 1v1 pvp. Gladiators and tyrants were similar, but a pro gladiator would win against a pro tyrant, even though under stress, gladiators were more complicated to play than any other class.
12) Warsmith, axe/mace/shield. The class of the leaders. The warsmith was the only crafter of the game. The warsmith had large amounts of HP and could summon speampunk machines for pvp and pve. One of them was a colossal golem that was needed to take down castle walls. Good enough in PvP
13) Bounty Hunter, axe/mace/shield. This was the gatherer of the game. Without a bounty hunter in your group you wouldn't be able to find any important materials, gear designs and parts. Good enough in pvp.
Wizards:
1) Sorcerer, fire attacks. One of the mage classes, which have great dps, great kill farmers and great castle defenders. The sorcerer with another mage could remove buffs from players which was basically a death sentence in L2. Due to being the fire mage, the sorcerers where the best DPS for the Ant Queen epic raid boss.
2) Spell Howler hurricane attacks. The class with the highest dmg in the game. Nouf said. No, I lied. The Spell Howler together with another mage had the unique silence course, which if landed on your groups healer it meant game over. Also, if you were a mage you would never win against a spell howler.
3) Spell Singer, water, ice and lightning attacks. This mage was the quickest caster of the game. Just like the other mages, it was the best dps choice for pve raiding or xp grinding, as well as the best wall defender during siege. Kill farmer as well.
4) Necromancer, death. Together with the Dark Avenger, this was the most hated class. The necromancer shares all the characteristics of the nukers: great dps, good wall defender, and kill farmer. The usual pew pew classes that coward from a distance and shoot. However the Necromancer was the tankiest mage because of his annoying death-related summons, with which he transferred pain. Also the necromancer had the silence curse of the spell howler and another curse, that took a fair bit to cast but would result almost always in total paralysis for 2-3 minutes.
5) Warcryer, life drain magic and melee axe/mace/shield. Another class of the leaders. The warcryer together with the other orc support class which I will name next, where the best buffers of the game. AoE, long lasting buffs for the group. In L2 you needed a quick buffer and the orcs where the best. One of the top 1v1 classes.
6) Overlord, life drain magic and melee axe/mace/shield. Another class of the leaders. This class could give the basic buffs that every class needed. But not single target. Not group AoE. This class could buff the whole alliance. In addition to that, the overlord would AoE debuff, course or CC enemies. One of the top 1v1 classes.
7) Warlock, cat summoner. This class would summon the most ugly and cartoonish summons. One of them booster crit rate and dmg for the group which was necessary if DPS was needed. The summoners, except the necromancer or the dark avenger, could summon one by one part members to their location, as well as instantly teleport the whole party to the nearest town. One of the top 1v1 classes.
8) Elemental Summoner. This class would summon Unicorns. One of them had the best AoE dmg and together with the Warlord class which AoE stunned, the summoner was one of them main classes needed for a guild that aimed to own or defend a castle. No1 for pve xp grind. No1. One of the top if not even better than the gladiator in 1v1.
9) Phantom summoner. Top solo xp class. One of the best 1v1 classes. I would call this the loners class. Would summon shadowy silhouettes.
10) Bishop. Most powerful healer and debuff remover.
11) Prophet. Human buffer. The best option for a small group of fighters that wanted the best stats. In mass PvP, the Prophet would give all players, one by one, it's unique buff. The berserker spirit boosted aggression and harmed defenses. Every mage needed that unique buff. The prophet had early access to acumen (increase casting speed).
12) Elven Elder. A mix between healer and buffer. The unique buff of the elven elder was stun resistance. In mass pvp, everybody would present themselves to the elven elder to receive the stun resistance buff. Another great buff that was kinda unique to elven elders was the clarity buff that reduced mp consumtion for skills. The Elven Elder could restore MP. One of the top 1v1 classes.
13) Shillien Elder. The shillien elder was the buffer of the magic focused group but it could also find a spot in fighters pve groups. The shilien elder could heal a bit, restore MP and had a unique defuff that made the cursed to receive more physical critical hits. The shillien elder had early access to empower (increase magic attack). One of the top 1v1 classes.
L2 had only this great feature of instanced 1v1 matches. The best players of each class would become a Hero at the end of each month, and receive hero weapons, global chat, unique skills and shop access.
Everybody could play their class and feel it was the best class.
Why? Because L2 didn't focus on instanced gameplay. It focused on open world pvp and pve.
And as you see from my list above EVERY CLASS HAD A FUNCTION BOTH IN PVP AND IN PVE.
To me that's real play as you want. Real class identity. Gladiator was No1 in 1v1 with it's dualswords? Well my friend that was playing Shillien Knight went one step further. He played the gladiator with axe/shield and would never lose in 1v1. Real play as you want.
So yeah, if some people want every class to hold every weapon, wear every armor, deal the same dmg per sec, have the same survivability, same CCs same same same same same same same with different animations, they should go play instanced PvP BG and instanced PvE raiding in ESO wow, ff14 etc etc etc etc etc. They are ignorant as to what "class" means in mmos. They dont even know what mmo means.
I became a gladiator by accident in L2. I found out it was shit in group pvp. It was shit in mass pvp. It was shit in unorganized small scale pvp. But I found my calling in 1v1 and organized open world pve/pvp.
When we got attacked while raiding I would turn around and PvP. I let the dps to better classes than me. I would die or be outshined, but I would succesfully use my tools to protect the raid. My group would get the XP and loot or something related to a quest.
My calling was the spectacle of 1v1. Endless challenges on who is the best gladiator.
The OP has a false perception of balance. Further more his desire for all classes to be able to deal, let's say, 1000 dmg in, let's say, 3 seconds is wrong. It is also wrong that he desires that all classes should be self-preserved in combat and that 1v1 (every class by itself [which is loved by players]) should be the focus instead of a group of people.
L2 did a great job with classes. But the reason of its success wasn't in its beautiful classes themselves. It was in the games content. It didn't have PvE in the form of dps racing instanced raiding and it didn't have instanced PvP arenas.
Each class was useful not in pvp, not in 1v1, not in siege, not in pve, not in all these little concepts that people focus so narrowly minded. All the classes of L2 shined because they found their function in:
(Fuck I can't believe that I will sit down and write all this...)
All the classes found their function in:
Fighters:
1) Gladiator, dual swords. Best looking attacks, good for early/mid solo lv up. A pro gladiator that wouldn't miss a beat while executing the classes abilities; without making any mistakes, would win 1000000% in 1v1.
2) Warlord, polearm. AoE stuns. Best class while inside the throne room of a castle. The best warlords would determine which guilds get to attack and own a castle. Not to mention any other pvp in tight areas: caves, catacombs, etc etc etc.
2) Paladin, sword/shield. Best tank to raid epic world bosses because it could take the punishment and also save groups if something went wrong.
3) Dark Avenger, sword/shield. One of the best PvP tanks together with Shillien Knight. The Dark Avenger was every edgelords dream class, with shield stun, drain health, and a dark panther summon that dealt huge dps. The Dark Avenger had an ability that if it was landed on any fighter except for a tank it meant 100% game over. It could.. "silence" physical attacks. Only an endgame gladiator had a chance of reflecting this course on the Dark Avenger, so when these two where fighting 1v1 you would see a very very strategic choice of skills being used. The dark avenger could also return physical dmg back at the attacker.
4) Treasure Hunter/Abyss Walker, Plains Walker, dagger/dual dagger Assassin's that could mark the most important enemy in PvP and guarantee their death. Then they could slip away. Fairly good in 1v1. Not good in PvE but could unlock hidden areas. They all had their flavour, one for humans, one for D. elves and one for elves. For me the most important function of the assassins where their ability to locate enemy guilds or groups, using their toolkit silent move, fake death, trick to bypass mobs. If you saw an enemy assassin looking at you and your friends you knew that soon you'd be attacked by overwhelming forces.
5) Hawkeye, Phantom Ranger, Silver Ranger. Archers. Nouf said. Together with the mages, the archers where the best pve dps classes, the best classes to defend the castle walls during sieges (or any scenario that elevation was a factor. The archers were also good at locking in on targets one by one and pretty much guarantee their death, unless it was a tank because tanks had boosted arrow and magic defences. If you were a player that wanted to farm kills you either had an archer or a mage.
6) Shillien Knight, sword shield. A pro Shillien Knight could ambush an enemy group during PvE and take them all down by himself. This dark elf class had curses, slows, confusion and misdirection skills, a beautiful lightning strike attack that paralyzed enemies, could drain health, poison and bleed enemies. The shillien knight could summon up to 3 orbs that acted independently, one would double down on curses and weakening effects, one would double down on drain health and the last would double down on dot dmg. One of my best friends was plaining a shillien knight and I would just sit back and watch him as he played the keyboard like a piano and was killing ALONE enemies, no matter if it was 1v2 1v3 1v4 and once 1v5, no matter if they wore better gear or if they were higher lv.
7) Temple Knight, sword/shield. Unkillable. Boring elf tank but it was unkillable.
8) Bladedancer, dual swords. The best support if your group was consistent of aggressive classes, like assassins archers and mages. It would buff their dmg big time. You needed a BD both for PvE and PvP. If you didn't had one, might as well had stayed lv10 and just roleplayed. The BD could spect into magic dmg, use a shield and a magical sword and kite/cheese people and win a fair bit of opponents in 1v1.
9) Sword Singer, sword shield. Support that boosted mostly defenses but it also boosted crit rate and reduced allies skill re-use time as well as costs. Personally if I had to choose between BD or SwS I would choose the elven support over the d. elf. The Sword Singer complemented by powerful Gladiator attacks but it also covered my lackluster defense.
10) Destroyer, two-handed weapon. The destroyer was a tanky orc class but once you made them angry all you had to do was run. If you couldn't slow them, the destroyers could catch up to you and kill you. The destroyers were the berserks of the game. Just picture a mad orc that doesn't feel pain and can certainly make you feel pain. A destroyers critical hit was the second hardest hitting attack.
11) Tyrant, first weapons. The tyrant was the martial arts orc class using devastating punches. The tyrant could solo high lv mobs, and was a fairly good dps and was almost top in 1v1 pvp. Gladiators and tyrants were similar, but a pro gladiator would win against a pro tyrant, even though under stress, gladiators were more complicated to play than any other class.
12) Warsmith, axe/mace/shield. The class of the leaders. The warsmith was the only crafter of the game. The warsmith had large amounts of HP and could summon speampunk machines for pvp and pve. One of them was a colossal golem that was needed to take down castle walls. Good enough in PvP
13) Bounty Hunter, axe/mace/shield. This was the gatherer of the game. Without a bounty hunter in your group you wouldn't be able to find any important materials, gear designs and parts. Good enough in pvp.
Wizards:
1) Sorcerer, fire attacks. One of the mage classes, which have great dps, great kill farmers and great castle defenders. The sorcerer with another mage could remove buffs from players which was basically a death sentence in L2. Due to being the fire mage, the sorcerers where the best DPS for the Ant Queen epic raid boss.
2) Spell Howler hurricane attacks. The class with the highest dmg in the game. Nouf said. No, I lied. The Spell Howler together with another mage had the unique silence course, which if landed on your groups healer it meant game over. Also, if you were a mage you would never win against a spell howler.
3) Spell Singer, water, ice and lightning attacks. This mage was the quickest caster of the game. Just like the other mages, it was the best dps choice for pve raiding or xp grinding, as well as the best wall defender during siege. Kill farmer as well.
4) Necromancer, death. Together with the Dark Avenger, this was the most hated class. The necromancer shares all the characteristics of the nukers: great dps, good wall defender, and kill farmer. The usual pew pew classes that coward from a distance and shoot. However the Necromancer was the tankiest mage because of his annoying death-related summons, with which he transferred pain. Also the necromancer had the silence curse of the spell howler and another curse, that took a fair bit to cast but would result almost always in total paralysis for 2-3 minutes.
5) Warcryer, life drain magic and melee axe/mace/shield. Another class of the leaders. The warcryer together with the other orc support class which I will name next, where the best buffers of the game. AoE, long lasting buffs for the group. In L2 you needed a quick buffer and the orcs where the best. One of the top 1v1 classes.
6) Overlord, life drain magic and melee axe/mace/shield. Another class of the leaders. This class could give the basic buffs that every class needed. But not single target. Not group AoE. This class could buff the whole alliance. In addition to that, the overlord would AoE debuff, course or CC enemies. One of the top 1v1 classes.
7) Warlock, cat summoner. This class would summon the most ugly and cartoonish summons. One of them booster crit rate and dmg for the group which was necessary if DPS was needed. The summoners, except the necromancer or the dark avenger, could summon one by one part members to their location, as well as instantly teleport the whole party to the nearest town. One of the top 1v1 classes.
8) Elemental Summoner. This class would summon Unicorns. One of them had the best AoE dmg and together with the Warlord class which AoE stunned, the summoner was one of them main classes needed for a guild that aimed to own or defend a castle. No1 for pve xp grind. No1. One of the top if not even better than the gladiator in 1v1.
9) Phantom summoner. Top solo xp class. One of the best 1v1 classes. I would call this the loners class. Would summon shadowy silhouettes.
10) Bishop. Most powerful healer and debuff remover.
11) Prophet. Human buffer. The best option for a small group of fighters that wanted the best stats. In mass PvP, the Prophet would give all players, one by one, it's unique buff. The berserker spirit boosted aggression and harmed defenses. Every mage needed that unique buff. The prophet had early access to acumen (increase casting speed).
12) Elven Elder. A mix between healer and buffer. The unique buff of the elven elder was stun resistance. In mass pvp, everybody would present themselves to the elven elder to receive the stun resistance buff. Another great buff that was kinda unique to elven elders was the clarity buff that reduced mp consumtion for skills. The Elven Elder could restore MP. One of the top 1v1 classes.
13) Shillien Elder. The shillien elder was the buffer of the magic focused group but it could also find a spot in fighters pve groups. The shilien elder could heal a bit, restore MP and had a unique defuff that made the cursed to receive more physical critical hits. The shillien elder had early access to empower (increase magic attack). One of the top 1v1 classes.
Here let me use the same debate powers you have. You are wrong.
All of the Lineage 2 referencing has me concerned. It appears a core group of Lineage 2's player base seems to be interested in Ashes or maybe even be the inspiration for a lot of the developing team members. In all my life I have not heard of Lineage 2 so much. I feel like if this was a good idea, it would be an OBVIOUSLY a good idea which... emulating a game that had as small of a footprint as Lineage 2 had doesnt seem like the best move to me. No offense to anyone who played the game, or loved it or otherwise, but the game has never even been appealing enough for me try, both aesthetically, or game design wise. I will admit I havent really had the time or resources to measure out my design concept well enough to really demonstrate before a group of people. But I feel very strongly that a design concept of the nature I've described is the only way to go. Without Certifiable Balance among the classes themselves, then in PVP you will have an all too corruptible game theory for anyone to play under any sense of real free agency or fairness And that = Not Fun.
I seriously think that there has to be a way to balance down to the individual character, and that figuring it out is ESSENTIAL to creating a breakthrough MMO. If L2 was seriously that good, not only would I have heard more about it, I'd have played it. And main stay MMO's today would have copied their engine heavily, and it doesn't seem that way to me. I don't want to rain on anyone's creative parade whoever is apart of the development process, I just want to say like, if you are spending your money if you want this game to be a success would you not be willing to consider something new if it had the possibility of being a catalytic component of the game?
All of the Lineage 2 referencing has me concerned. It appears a core group of Lineage 2's player base seems to be interested in Ashes or maybe even be the inspiration for a lot of the developing team members. In all my life I have not heard of Lineage 2 so much. I feel like if this was a good idea, it would be an OBVIOUSLY a good idea which... emulating a game that had as small of a footprint as Lineage 2 had doesnt seem like the best move to me. No offense to anyone who played the game, or loved it or otherwise, but the game has never even been appealing enough for me try, both aesthetically, or game design wise. I will admit I havent really had the time or resources to measure out my design concept well enough to really demonstrate before a group of people. But I feel very strongly that a design concept of the nature I've described is the only way to go. Without Certifiable Balance among the classes themselves, then in PVP you will have an all too corruptible game theory for anyone to play under any sense of real free agency or fairness And that = Not Fun.
I seriously think that there has to be a way to balance down to the individual character, and that figuring it out is ESSENTIAL to creating a breakthrough MMO. If L2 was seriously that good, not only would I have heard more about it, I'd have played it. And main stay MMO's today would have copied their engine heavily, and it doesn't seem that way to me. I don't want to rain on anyone's creative parade whoever is apart of the development process, I just want to say like, if you are spending your money if you want this game to be a success would you not be willing to consider something new if it had the possibility of being a catalytic component of the game?
Don't worry, your clear lack of knowledge and baseless superficial assumptions about Lineage 2 to the point of not even having heard about it are perfectly understandable, as the game mainly shined in the East market and was fairly modest in term of numbers in the West market dominated by WoW.
It is fine for you to hold the opinion that a more class individualistc balance would be better over a Class party balance even tho i expect that you never played in a system like that to properly graps the depth a character class balancing like the one present in Lineage 2.
I wouldn't really expect at the moment any class winning like Rock paper scissors, its too early to judge at the moment how things will actually play out. Also Older games and modern games generally have different balance and skill ceilings even more so for the fact you will have action combat options in this game. There can be a lot of potential outplay akin to a fighting game, and you can have that sense when you go try hard and can wreck a bunch of people. We will will have to see more of the combat and how things work, and play it.
I'm pretty sure they said it was going to be rock paper scissors 'esque and honestly it makes sense for some classes to work that way.
I wouldn't bank on that until you see how the game actually plays its not simple when action combat stuff is involved with dodge and blocking. If you are out playing people (at a often rate) it isn't rock paper scissors.
Balancing in Ashes of Creation is group focused not based on 1v1 combat.[2][15]
1v1 matchups will have a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, where one class will be superior to another.[15]
There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[15] – Steven Sharif
No esque to it.
Thanks I couldn't remember where it was
I'm saying someone thought and design can change when the game is created and tested and things work different than they were expecting. The mentioned elements will push it for players to make it work different than planned with the tools they have for combat.
Don't worry, your clear lack of knowledge and baseless superficial assumptions about Lineage 2 to the point of not even having heard about it are perfectly understandable, as the game mainly shined in the East market and was fairly modest in term of numbers in the West market dominated by WoW.
It is fine for you to hold the opinion that a more class individualistc balance would be better over a Class party balance even tho i expect that you never played in a system like that to properly graps the depth a character class balancing like the one present in Lineage 2.[/quote]
My knowledge of Lineage 2 has nothing to do with my overall philosophy of the balancing being based off of an 8 man group being perceptively bad. And my argument was that if it was actually that good, it would have made a larger footprint in the MMO community than it has, specially being as old as it is. I dont need to know anything about Lineage 2 to suppose that it was just a bad game. The Meta Gaming community is already toxic enough without you literally building it into the group dynamic. It's simply not fun to play a game based on how other people are telling you to play it. I'd rather just go jack off. People don't actually want balance, people want sloppily lopsided class builds so we can see a legion of the same 8-12 classes of 64 perform the most grand and ethereal circle jerk MMO gaming has ever seen.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2022
It hasn't made a larger footprint in MMORPGs because the vast majority of MMORPGs are designed for PvE - with PvP added as an afterthought.
Let me put it like this, if you can't conceptualize how to balance every class between each other, then you could probably never figure out how to actually balance any two classes between each other and will have a perpetually imbalanced game. Rife with meta's, and people telling you how to play on youtube.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2022
It was never really intended for every class to be balanced 1v1.
That's only a thing because gamers wanted to have PvP combat in MMORPGs.
But, RPG classes are intended to have a rock-paper-scissors design.
Ashes can't really have a META due to the Archetype design...and augments.
Some people will try to tell others there is a META, but we will know they are deluded.
I like the rock paper scissors style, I hope its very reminiscent of that at least. However imo, the 1v1 balance would be best. I was thinking in order to make it work in an RPG there would have to be a PVP Tree and Dungeon Tree. I see how having two different trees would take away from the role playing dynamic a bit. I think it's a worthy sacrifice for creating a vacuum of sorts so that you can really meticulously balance things. As you describe things though Dygz, I feel like it will at least shape out to be an enjoyable game. You are a good ambassador to the brand.
One of the things which makes AoC so innovative is that it goes so far beyond PvP and Dungeons, which is what many gamers have grown up on. There are going to be many new and critical systems, such as the Node government types, caravans, lack of fast travel, animal husbandry, professions and the like which will befuddle many gamers who expect a game about PvP and Dungeons. I think you will really love it, @Killendel
And I grew up on L2, the first five years or so were pretty darn amazing.
Comments
Support rolls like bard for example would probaly be fairly weak 1v1 or 2v2 scenarios but will probaly be amazing in full groups.
That being said in games like this you can often see support rolls/classes outplay 1v1 classes at times and win it just harder to do but your not meant to be doing 1v1s realy as those classes.
I feel the stronger guilds in ashes will be the ones that get solid group comps down rather than mish mash of what ever.
I wouldn't bank on that until you see how the game actually plays its not simple when action combat stuff is involved with dodge and blocking. If you are out playing people (at a often rate) it isn't rock paper scissors.
Blood prophet found it
Thanks I couldn't remember where it was
If I'm not mistaken PVP has the biggest player base, and MMORPG are not just RPG. There is a massive multiplayer dynamic and its not too hard to cater to both aspects. I find it hard to believe you can do both an 8 person group balancing focus AND rock paper scissors. In either event I would prefer bringing the balance focus to the individual character level. It's ideal imo and it doesnt seem to me like it would be impossible to do.
L2 did a great job with classes. But the reason of its success wasn't in its beautiful classes themselves. It was in the games content. It didn't have PvE in the form of dps racing instanced raiding and it didn't have instanced PvP arenas.
Each class was useful not in pvp, not in 1v1, not in siege, not in pve, not in all these little concepts that people focus so narrowly minded. All the classes of L2 shined because they found their function in:
(Fuck I can't believe that I will sit down and write all this...)
All the classes found their function in:
Fighters:
1) Gladiator, dual swords. Best looking attacks, good for early/mid solo lv up. A pro gladiator that wouldn't miss a beat while executing the classes abilities; without making any mistakes, would win 1000000% in 1v1.
2) Warlord, polearm. AoE stuns. Best class while inside the throne room of a castle. The best warlords would determine which guilds get to attack and own a castle. Not to mention any other pvp in tight areas: caves, catacombs, etc etc etc.
2) Paladin, sword/shield. Best tank to raid epic world bosses because it could take the punishment and also save groups if something went wrong.
3) Dark Avenger, sword/shield. One of the best PvP tanks together with Shillien Knight. The Dark Avenger was every edgelords dream class, with shield stun, drain health, and a dark panther summon that dealt huge dps. The Dark Avenger had an ability that if it was landed on any fighter except for a tank it meant 100% game over. It could.. "silence" physical attacks. Only an endgame gladiator had a chance of reflecting this course on the Dark Avenger, so when these two where fighting 1v1 you would see a very very strategic choice of skills being used. The dark avenger could also return physical dmg back at the attacker.
4) Treasure Hunter/Abyss Walker, Plains Walker, dagger/dual dagger Assassin's that could mark the most important enemy in PvP and guarantee their death. Then they could slip away. Fairly good in 1v1. Not good in PvE but could unlock hidden areas. They all had their flavour, one for humans, one for D. elves and one for elves. For me the most important function of the assassins where their ability to locate enemy guilds or groups, using their toolkit silent move, fake death, trick to bypass mobs. If you saw an enemy assassin looking at you and your friends you knew that soon you'd be attacked by overwhelming forces.
5) Hawkeye, Phantom Ranger, Silver Ranger. Archers. Nouf said. Together with the mages, the archers where the best pve dps classes, the best classes to defend the castle walls during sieges (or any scenario that elevation was a factor. The archers were also good at locking in on targets one by one and pretty much guarantee their death, unless it was a tank because tanks had boosted arrow and magic defences. If you were a player that wanted to farm kills you either had an archer or a mage.
6) Shillien Knight, sword shield. A pro Shillien Knight could ambush an enemy group during PvE and take them all down by himself. This dark elf class had curses, slows, confusion and misdirection skills, a beautiful lightning strike attack that paralyzed enemies, could drain health, poison and bleed enemies. The shillien knight could summon up to 3 orbs that acted independently, one would double down on curses and weakening effects, one would double down on drain health and the last would double down on dot dmg. One of my best friends was plaining a shillien knight and I would just sit back and watch him as he played the keyboard like a piano and was killing ALONE enemies, no matter if it was 1v2 1v3 1v4 and once 1v5, no matter if they wore better gear or if they were higher lv.
7) Temple Knight, sword/shield. Unkillable. Boring elf tank but it was unkillable.
8) Bladedancer, dual swords. The best support if your group was consistent of aggressive classes, like assassins archers and mages. It would buff their dmg big time. You needed a BD both for PvE and PvP. If you didn't had one, might as well had stayed lv10 and just roleplayed. The BD could spect into magic dmg, use a shield and a magical sword and kite/cheese people and win a fair bit of opponents in 1v1.
9) Sword Singer, sword shield. Support that boosted mostly defenses but it also boosted crit rate and reduced allies skill re-use time as well as costs. Personally if I had to choose between BD or SwS I would choose the elven support over the d. elf. The Sword Singer complemented by powerful Gladiator attacks but it also covered my lackluster defense.
10) Destroyer, two-handed weapon. The destroyer was a tanky orc class but once you made them angry all you had to do was run. If you couldn't slow them, the destroyers could catch up to you and kill you. The destroyers were the berserks of the game. Just picture a mad orc that doesn't feel pain and can certainly make you feel pain. A destroyers critical hit was the second hardest hitting attack.
11) Tyrant, first weapons. The tyrant was the martial arts orc class using devastating punches. The tyrant could solo high lv mobs, and was a fairly good dps and was almost top in 1v1 pvp. Gladiators and tyrants were similar, but a pro gladiator would win against a pro tyrant, even though under stress, gladiators were more complicated to play than any other class.
12) Warsmith, axe/mace/shield. The class of the leaders. The warsmith was the only crafter of the game. The warsmith had large amounts of HP and could summon speampunk machines for pvp and pve. One of them was a colossal golem that was needed to take down castle walls. Good enough in PvP
13) Bounty Hunter, axe/mace/shield. This was the gatherer of the game. Without a bounty hunter in your group you wouldn't be able to find any important materials, gear designs and parts. Good enough in pvp.
Wizards:
1) Sorcerer, fire attacks. One of the mage classes, which have great dps, great kill farmers and great castle defenders. The sorcerer with another mage could remove buffs from players which was basically a death sentence in L2. Due to being the fire mage, the sorcerers where the best DPS for the Ant Queen epic raid boss.
2) Spell Howler hurricane attacks. The class with the highest dmg in the game. Nouf said. No, I lied. The Spell Howler together with another mage had the unique silence course, which if landed on your groups healer it meant game over. Also, if you were a mage you would never win against a spell howler.
3) Spell Singer, water, ice and lightning attacks. This mage was the quickest caster of the game. Just like the other mages, it was the best dps choice for pve raiding or xp grinding, as well as the best wall defender during siege. Kill farmer as well.
4) Necromancer, death. Together with the Dark Avenger, this was the most hated class. The necromancer shares all the characteristics of the nukers: great dps, good wall defender, and kill farmer. The usual pew pew classes that coward from a distance and shoot. However the Necromancer was the tankiest mage because of his annoying death-related summons, with which he transferred pain. Also the necromancer had the silence curse of the spell howler and another curse, that took a fair bit to cast but would result almost always in total paralysis for 2-3 minutes.
5) Warcryer, life drain magic and melee axe/mace/shield. Another class of the leaders. The warcryer together with the other orc support class which I will name next, where the best buffers of the game. AoE, long lasting buffs for the group. In L2 you needed a quick buffer and the orcs where the best. One of the top 1v1 classes.
6) Overlord, life drain magic and melee axe/mace/shield. Another class of the leaders. This class could give the basic buffs that every class needed. But not single target. Not group AoE. This class could buff the whole alliance. In addition to that, the overlord would AoE debuff, course or CC enemies. One of the top 1v1 classes.
7) Warlock, cat summoner. This class would summon the most ugly and cartoonish summons. One of them booster crit rate and dmg for the group which was necessary if DPS was needed. The summoners, except the necromancer or the dark avenger, could summon one by one part members to their location, as well as instantly teleport the whole party to the nearest town. One of the top 1v1 classes.
8) Elemental Summoner. This class would summon Unicorns. One of them had the best AoE dmg and together with the Warlord class which AoE stunned, the summoner was one of them main classes needed for a guild that aimed to own or defend a castle. No1 for pve xp grind. No1. One of the top if not even better than the gladiator in 1v1.
9) Phantom summoner. Top solo xp class. One of the best 1v1 classes. I would call this the loners class. Would summon shadowy silhouettes.
10) Bishop. Most powerful healer and debuff remover.
11) Prophet. Human buffer. The best option for a small group of fighters that wanted the best stats. In mass PvP, the Prophet would give all players, one by one, it's unique buff. The berserker spirit boosted aggression and harmed defenses. Every mage needed that unique buff. The prophet had early access to acumen (increase casting speed).
12) Elven Elder. A mix between healer and buffer. The unique buff of the elven elder was stun resistance. In mass pvp, everybody would present themselves to the elven elder to receive the stun resistance buff. Another great buff that was kinda unique to elven elders was the clarity buff that reduced mp consumtion for skills. The Elven Elder could restore MP. One of the top 1v1 classes.
13) Shillien Elder. The shillien elder was the buffer of the magic focused group but it could also find a spot in fighters pve groups. The shilien elder could heal a bit, restore MP and had a unique defuff that made the cursed to receive more physical critical hits. The shillien elder had early access to empower (increase magic attack). One of the top 1v1 classes.
L2 had only this great feature of instanced 1v1 matches. The best players of each class would become a Hero at the end of each month, and receive hero weapons, global chat, unique skills and shop access.
Everybody could play their class and feel it was the best class.
Why? Because L2 didn't focus on instanced gameplay. It focused on open world pvp and pve.
And as you see from my list above EVERY CLASS HAD A FUNCTION BOTH IN PVP AND IN PVE.
To me that's real play as you want. Real class identity. Gladiator was No1 in 1v1 with it's dualswords? Well my friend that was playing Shillien Knight went one step further. He played the gladiator with axe/shield and would never lose in 1v1. Real play as you want.
So yeah, if some people want every class to hold every weapon, wear every armor, deal the same dmg per sec, have the same survivability, same CCs same same same same same same same with different animations, they should go play instanced PvP BG and instanced PvE raiding in ESO wow, ff14 etc etc etc etc etc. They are ignorant as to what "class" means in mmos. They dont even know what mmo means.
I became a gladiator by accident in L2. I found out it was shit in group pvp. It was shit in mass pvp. It was shit in unorganized small scale pvp. But I found my calling in 1v1 and organized open world pve/pvp.
When we got attacked while raiding I would turn around and PvP. I let the dps to better classes than me. I would die or be outshined, but I would succesfully use my tools to protect the raid. My group would get the XP and loot or something related to a quest.
My calling was the spectacle of 1v1. Endless challenges on who is the best gladiator.
Here let me use the same debate powers you have. You are wrong.
I seriously think that there has to be a way to balance down to the individual character, and that figuring it out is ESSENTIAL to creating a breakthrough MMO. If L2 was seriously that good, not only would I have heard more about it, I'd have played it. And main stay MMO's today would have copied their engine heavily, and it doesn't seem that way to me. I don't want to rain on anyone's creative parade whoever is apart of the development process, I just want to say like, if you are spending your money if you want this game to be a success would you not be willing to consider something new if it had the possibility of being a catalytic component of the game?
Don't worry, your clear lack of knowledge and baseless superficial assumptions about Lineage 2 to the point of not even having heard about it are perfectly understandable, as the game mainly shined in the East market and was fairly modest in term of numbers in the West market dominated by WoW.
It is fine for you to hold the opinion that a more class individualistc balance would be better over a Class party balance even tho i expect that you never played in a system like that to properly graps the depth a character class balancing like the one present in Lineage 2.
Aren't we all sinners?
I'm saying someone thought and design can change when the game is created and tested and things work different than they were expecting. The mentioned elements will push it for players to make it work different than planned with the tools they have for combat.
Don't worry, your clear lack of knowledge and baseless superficial assumptions about Lineage 2 to the point of not even having heard about it are perfectly understandable, as the game mainly shined in the East market and was fairly modest in term of numbers in the West market dominated by WoW.
It is fine for you to hold the opinion that a more class individualistc balance would be better over a Class party balance even tho i expect that you never played in a system like that to properly graps the depth a character class balancing like the one present in Lineage 2.[/quote]
My knowledge of Lineage 2 has nothing to do with my overall philosophy of the balancing being based off of an 8 man group being perceptively bad. And my argument was that if it was actually that good, it would have made a larger footprint in the MMO community than it has, specially being as old as it is. I dont need to know anything about Lineage 2 to suppose that it was just a bad game. The Meta Gaming community is already toxic enough without you literally building it into the group dynamic. It's simply not fun to play a game based on how other people are telling you to play it. I'd rather just go jack off. People don't actually want balance, people want sloppily lopsided class builds so we can see a legion of the same 8-12 classes of 64 perform the most grand and ethereal circle jerk MMO gaming has ever seen.
That's only a thing because gamers wanted to have PvP combat in MMORPGs.
But, RPG classes are intended to have a rock-paper-scissors design.
Ashes can't really have a META due to the Archetype design...and augments.
Some people will try to tell others there is a META, but we will know they are deluded.
One of the things which makes AoC so innovative is that it goes so far beyond PvP and Dungeons, which is what many gamers have grown up on. There are going to be many new and critical systems, such as the Node government types, caravans, lack of fast travel, animal husbandry, professions and the like which will befuddle many gamers who expect a game about PvP and Dungeons. I think you will really love it, @Killendel
And I grew up on L2, the first five years or so were pretty darn amazing.