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Caravan System - No System Survives Contact With the Player

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Comments

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It's already "fixed".
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Asgerr wrote: »
    To restate my question then: To what extent would you be fine with Intrepid implementing what would be considered negative game design, to force you into playing the game the way they want you to play?
    I personally wouldn't care. If the game overall is better off for it - bring it on.
  • PeonLambdaPeonLambda Member
    edited August 2022
    What about that idea,
    if a player reach a certain weight he gain a "debuff" let call it suspicion count ( that does nothing) with a count of 1 that only him can see,
    If there's an other player with the same "debuff" nearby they both increase the count number.
    And when that number reach a certain threshold the debuff become visible to all.
    If a high number of the same guild regroup to a place and move their separate ways to avoid the trigger it's become also suspicious.
    So the spying network and diplomatic relationship become interesting. You can even create an information broker guild for the RP player xd
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    PeonLambda wrote: »
    So the spying network and diplomatic relationship become interesting. You can even create an information broker guild for the RP player xd
    Is it even that interesting if you literally have a system telling you that they're doing something shifty? I'm not that big of a guild spy/diplomat, but that doesn't seem all that fun.
  • PeonLambdaPeonLambda Member
    edited August 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    PeonLambda wrote: »
    So the spying network and diplomatic relationship become interesting. You can even create an information broker guild for the RP player xd
    Is it even that interesting if you literally have a system telling you that they're doing something shifty? I'm not that big of a guild spy/diplomat, but that doesn't seem all that fun.

    depend how much money u can bargain when u sell those information xd
    That whole topic may also influence siege warfare depending on the situation, let say med some low tier siege engine can be carried pres build, but a massive trebuchet need to be crafted near the siege area and you need to transport the materiel.
    So if you can give the information on the starting point of the logistic train how much does that information worth ?

    If you dont make the counter visible you can be subtle and make their walking sound heavier just like in real life.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    By the way I didn't mean to be dismissive of the issue by saying they'll fix it. It's potentially a real issue, but I just think they'll fix it, or design it right in the first place.
    Asgerr wrote: »
    To restate my question then: To what extent would you be fine with Intrepid implementing what would be considered negative game design, to force you into playing the game the way they want you to play?

    As far as they need to go, or at least as far as possible, to get any given system working the way they intend it to work.


  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Not a fan of legislating regulations to promote caravans. If a guild rises to a level where they believe they can replace the need for caravans for their goods, then great. Let them go for it.

    My guess is they’ll get owned a few times then figure out a new method that will work until they are destroyed again.

    But so what? I’d rather players and guilds have the freedom to experiment with risk & reward than be legislated to caravans because there’s some need to use ‘sanctioned game systems.’

    This is what player-centered content looks like.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Not a fan of legislating regulations to promote caravans. If a guild rises to a level where they believe they can replace the need for caravans for their goods, then great. Let them go for it.

    My guess is they’ll get owned a few times then figure out a new method that will work until they are destroyed again.

    But so what? I’d rather players and guilds have the freedom to experiment with risk & reward than be legislated to caravans because there’s some need to use ‘sanctioned game systems.’

    This is what player-centered content looks like.

    I mostly agree with this too, but I also believe sometimes it is necessary to nudge, using some smaller incentive or disincentive. Otherwise things get out of hand.

    Specifically my opinion is 'If players find a way to avoid engaging with one system that is strictly better, let it rock. When the EFFECT of that then starts to push on another system, push back. Only one domino allowed at a time.
    Y'all know how Jamberry Roll.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    In the case of multiple dominos falling, I would want Intrepid to do some analysis as to why/how those systems as designed are being bypassed, and whether the impacted system(s) need to be reinforced (to increase usage) or redesigned to take that use case into account (or scrapped entirely).
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    I mean is this even an "abuse" or "workaround" of the system?

    Where in using the caravan system you can try and get away with less man power, while trying to just haul all your stuff yourself you spend your time and effort in doing so... it just sounds like....... risk vs reward.... to me.
  • BaSkA_9x2BaSkA_9x2 Member, Alpha Two
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    This is a similar issue to the problem that may be created by lower level characters giving more corruption when they're killed. If it actually became meta for people to do gathering on low level characters, to reduce the chances of being killed by other players - I can almost guarantee Intrepid will fix it.

    I asked this question a long time ago and someone answered that it won't be possible.

    My question was: will you be able to be a skiller in Ashes of Creation? A skiller is a term used for players in RuneScape that do not level up any combat skills, they're "skill pure" level 1 combat (actually level 3) characters with all other non-combat skills maxed out.

    And the answer I received was: no, you won't be able to max out non-combat skills by being a low level combat character. In other words, it won't be possible to be a level 1 combat with level 100 lumberjacking (I don't know the level cap for professions, let's just say level 100 is the max).

    The reason was that to get any profession to max level, you need to complete quests and tasks that will require you to be a high combat level.

    I absolutely do not know if this is true or false, I'll ask Steven on Discord and I'll update this if I get a reply 🥰
    🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    BaSkA13 wrote: »
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    This is a similar issue to the problem that may be created by lower level characters giving more corruption when they're killed. If it actually became meta for people to do gathering on low level characters, to reduce the chances of being killed by other players - I can almost guarantee Intrepid will fix it.

    I asked this question a long time ago and someone answered that it won't be possible.

    My question was: will you be able to be a skiller in Ashes of Creation? A skiller is a term used for players in RuneScape that do not level up any combat skills, they're "skill pure" level 1 combat (actually level 3) characters with all other non-combat skills maxed out.

    And the answer I received was: no, you won't be able to max out non-combat skills by being a low level combat character. In other words, it won't be possible to be a level 1 combat with level 100 lumberjacking (I don't know the level cap for professions, let's just say level 100 is the max).

    The reason was that to get any profession to max level, you need to complete quests and tasks that will require you to be a high combat level.

    I absolutely do not know if this is true or false, I'll ask Steven on Discord and I'll update this if I get a reply 🥰

    That's the thing i remember as well.
    Adding to this: lifeskills also give EXP, which would mean, that your combat level will rise automatically while lifeskilling
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqDjAzZ2gAQ&t=7521s
    mark 2:05:35

    [Q]: "Are Artisan crafts and their progression affected in any way by race religion, class or Archetype?"
    [A]: "Artisan classes and their professions are not affected. That system is wholly independant of other character choices."
    ---Steven



    Artisan progression is separate from Adventurer progression.
    You could be a single digit Adventurer/max level Artisan.
    I expect Exploring will be giving you some Adventurer xp, so you might not be able to remain Level 1 if you are traveling around the world.
    You can certainly do the carebear challenge, refuse to engage in combat and max Artisan Levels.

    What is "lifeskilling"?
  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Artisan progression is separate from Adventurer progression.
    You could be a single digit Adventurer/max level Artisan.
    I expect Exploring will be giving you some Adventurer xp, so you might not be able to remain Level 1 if you are traveling around the world.
    You can certainly do the carebear challenge, refuse to engage in combat and max Artisan Levels.

    What is "lifeskilling"?

    @Dygz
    Lifeskilling = Artisanship

    And no, according to Steven, you do indeed get Adventuring EXP through harvesting, crafting, exploring, processing etc.

    Which was repeatedly said by him multiple times:

    One of them:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCr9yh2Y97I&t=2787s
  • UnderdelveUnderdelve Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    ^^^^^^ - Vid mark regarding xp gain @ 46:29 Also...a lot of "may" in the explanation on the activities that will contribute to overall class level gain.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The date of that Livestream is May 24, 2017.
    [Q]: "Will a player be able to level their overall levels through only Crafting or is PvP/PvE separate?"
    [A}: "Overall levels. So... Adventuring class levels... That's going to involve a lot of different ways to level. PvP, PvE, some crafting may give it, some exploration may give it, collecting materials and stuff may give it, building stuff may give it... participating in Node Events may give experience towards those things.
    There's lots of different ways that players can receive experience."


    Yes. Lots of "may" going on there...shortly after Kickstarter.
    The quote I posted is from Aug 28, 2020.

    Looks like we still need a quote that says you have to complete high level Adventurer quests in order to become a max level Artisan. Or that says progression to max level Artisan will result in you reaching high level Adventurer as a byproduct.
  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    @Dygz
    I have looked into the wiki sources again and i think you might be right.
    I was basing my knowledge on the wiki and its sources, that state that Artisan+Exploring provide exp.
    Considering that the video is from 5 years ago (outdated), the Alpha 1 not giving any EXP from gathering/crafting and the amount of "May"s in the video, i do assume that you are right.

  • BaSkA_9x2BaSkA_9x2 Member, Alpha Two
    So the consensus right now is that there's probably nothing hard blocking you from becoming a max level Artisan while being a level 1 combat/adventure.

    Good to know, so maybe having low Adventure level maxed out Artisans will be meta to make level 50s instantly turn into extremely corrupted and just murder them right after for their gear.
    🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I see a lot of comments about how to force people to use caravans and/or prevent them from just hauling things in backpacks.

    Why? This is the totally wrong approach.

    Just make caravans attractive. Don't force people to use them. Make it so that they want to use them. This is supposed to be a game, after all. First of all, making the activity itself fun will make it a huge draw. I'm looking forward to the event, a chance to PvP with a real goal.

    In addition, just give rewards beyond "you move your junk from here to there". Earn certificates, titles, XP, and so on. Isn't it better in a game to make an activity something that people want to do, rather than have to do?!
     
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  • Weapon_MasterWeapon_Master Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    A great point, and its early enough to still address this.
  • Weapon_MasterWeapon_Master Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Asgerr wrote: »
    As I read through the thread I see some people assuage concerns with the (valid) idea that Intrepid will fix these issues in the bud should this actually happen.

    To restate my question then: To what extent would you be fine with Intrepid implementing what would be considered negative game design, to force you into playing the game the way they want you to play?

    This is not meant as an attack. Rather I mean it as a gauging for what is tolerable to you guys, and whether this could set a negative precedent of the devs kneecapping player ingenuity in gaming of the systems.

    If it ensures the PvP system stays intact, as a part time crafter and full time grinder/pvper, there aren't many things they could do to ensure proper pvp happens that would upset me. With the corruption system as it is, which is a moderate take, systems like this are crucial for the high risk high reward of moving goods for big margins and getting pvp as the defender or offender. Both rely on this system for some good wholesome world pvp. Which is also my favorite PvP. All in all, it's not the way they want me to play, its the way i want the game to play that they would be ensuring.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    BaSkA13 wrote: »
    So the consensus right now is that there's probably nothing hard blocking you from becoming a max level Artisan while being a level 1 combat/adventure.
    I would say low level Adventurer.
    I think there will be enough ambient xp, like from exploring, that you can't really stay at Level 1 Adventurer if you play Ashes for months.
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Asgerr wrote: »
    What would Intrepid do then? Should they implement negative game design (e.g. adding weight to items so that they're too heavy to carry in a backpack) to force the players to play the game the way they want you them to play?
    Asgerr wrote: »
    To restate my question then: To what extent would you be fine with Intrepid implementing what would be considered negative game design, to force you into playing the game the way they want you to play?

    There is already is a limit to how much can be carried in your backpack. A mule can carry 10x the max of 1 player. A caravan can carry 10x the weight of a mule. So, 1 caravan can move 100 players worth of backpack space. Double what 50 players could carry in backpacks. In this case, the 50 players could defend the 1 caravan and still carry 2x the backpack space of all those players. In fact, I don't see why those 50 players could not additionally fill their backpacks and perhaps even mules for every player to maximize what is moved.

    Also, its not really about forcing you to play the way they want you too. Its about the player choosing how to play based on a risk vs reward choice. Which is a design pillar of ashes.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mules (check under carrying capacity)
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Atama wrote: »
    In addition, just give rewards beyond "you move your junk from here to there". Earn certificates, titles, XP, and so on. Isn't it better in a game to make an activity something that people want to do, rather than have to do?!

    I know some players who would do it just for the titles. "Hey look, I've finally unlocked the Caravan Magnate title!"
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    This is probably where bots will be most prolific!
  • The way i see it is like this, is gonna be a system used by a lot of players at first but will get boring pretty fast, or players will find workarounds. And if someone finds a way to do it faster more efficient, why not? Is a game and is supposed to be fun.
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