Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
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You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
WoW Classic class design/fantasy and what made it so good and things we can learn from it
Weapon_Master
Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
When I refer to WoW Classic I am specifically referring to vanilla 1-60 WoW. I am just covering my opinion on why wow exploded in popularity and what contributes to a good mmo class design. There are a lot of things ashes is nailing right on the head, better than wow would have ever dreamed of such as the node systems, node wars, caravans, and all the player interaction in between. WoW had very fluid good feeling combat, something that ashes is also on track to have as well.
Vanilla WoW is a game that pulls many of us back on and off for years and years. The leveling in that game is so basic yet addicting. Every class was distinct and represented its fantasy perfectly.
The specializations of each class in wow were also well made. First of all you got one point every level to look forward to. You could multi specialize between three different talent trees, you had so many choices to make to custom tune your character exactly how you wanted them to be.
I have some concerns about the flavor or fantasy of the classes in AoC so I figured now that the classes are beginning to be fleshed out i'd voice some of that here. For example, having a class named tank, could severely limit the possibilities of other classes tanking. In classic wow warriors, druids, paladins, and shamans could all tank dungeons, for raids it was typically druids and warriors, perhaps paladins but I never really played alliance to find out. Also many classes could fill different roles and specialize in many different ways, they all had something unique they brought to the table. Whether it was buffs, mage food/water, warlock healthstones, shaman totems, paladin aura's, warrior shouts, and on and on. There were many hybrid like classes with the shaman druid and paladin which were very versatile. The combined primary and secondary class names give people a lot of hope for the fantasy of the class, although some of the summoner ones do look very interesting as it changes their summons other than that it seems to be mostly merely a name.
Warrior- Warriors had their own unique rage system, that came with a mini game of balancing stances with their own abilities and advantages and disadvantages with each stance, a good warrior was a master at managing his rage when switching stances. They also knew that sometimes it was necessary mid battle to switch to the sword and board to absorb damage or bash a spell, then switch back to dish it out. When a warrior changes stances he lost all his rage unless he specialized to keep around 20 when changing, this mini game was addictive. They never used any magic, all their attacks and abilities were based around their weapon and rage as well as their tankyness and aggressive rageful demeanor. They had distinct specializations that encouraged tanking and becoming a stun menace or dual wielding and 2 handed weapons. Which you could blend to make your own custom built character, taking aspects from all, or two. Warriors were fierce their fantasy was well done between the rage system, shouts to buff yourself and allies, stances lack of magics or anything appearing magical, and more. Warriors are my favorite so im a bit biased. The idea of a warrior with mana makes me queasy, same for a warrior with magical looking attacks. It just doesnt seem to fit the fantasy at all.
Mage- Mage's were very interesting, They specialized in arcane and elemental magic. For their go to basic spell attack there was three versions, arcane missles, fireball, they all had slight differences, the arcane missles were channeled and went around walls, frostbolt slowed targets, fireball did the most damage and left a small burn over time. You could specialize for each of these types, or mix match your specialization. It greatly mattered to recognize what type of mage you were battling to know how to fight them best. Every specialization felt like its own class. If you played wow PvP you know how fierce the arcane fire multi specialized mages were. Or if you were a warrior like me, how annoying the frost mages can be. Mages could open portals across the world, create food and water for friends. They could buff allies with extra intellect, remove curses from allies. They sported big damage especially in AOE, This added to the mage fantasy and really made it a interesting powerful but squishy ally to have around.
Warlock- Many time's multiple spell casters in games can feel to similar, this was not the case with the warlock. The warlock had life drains, mana drains, summoned evil looking pets, curses, fears. You could specialize for damage over time and drains, or big burst nukes, or specialize for your pets and be way tankier than the other specializations. It's not often you see a tanky caster. They could harvest souls of conquered foes to summon stronger pets. They could also use souls to create healthstones that act as health potions for allies, or soulstones to revive the fallen if it was used prior to their death. They had their own special dreadsteed mount which was epic. The Warlock fantasy is truely near perfect and I dont even play warlocks.
Druid- A true hybrid class, they sported damaging spells, healing, and shape shifts for physical damage and utility/stuns. The specializations were for each of those three things. However even a spellcasting or healing druid would shape shift for either the cat forms stealth, or bears stun, and on and on. Bear had rage instead of mana like the warrior, cat had energy instead of mana like the rogue As would the feral shapeshifting specialization use heals and damaging spells. They had innervate which would replenish mana of a ally swiftly, a couple buffs, as well as great healing over time. The jack of all trades. The nature aspect of this class was excellently implemented. This class could tank dungeons and raids. This was the only class who could resurect a ally in the middle of a battle.
Shaman- Another true hybrid class, they didn't use shapeshifts they used the power of the elements to buff their weapons, and cast their spells. They had totems that buffed themselves and their team, or the fire totems could dish out damage, one for each element could be deployed at a time. The buffs ranged from melee, to mana, healing, fear and sleep removal, strength, agility, tankyness. They were a necessity in raids for these buffs. They had a chain heal, one of few heal spells that targeted multiple allies. Some of my fondest memories were playing a hybrid specialized shaman dealing massive spell damage and weapon attack damage with my two handed weapon buffed with the element of air. This class could even tank dungeons, however not raids. The elements and totems really gave this class a unique fantasy. Each quest for your new element totem was epic.
Paladin- The paladin used the holy light to heal allies and damage foes. They could be seen sporting a big two handed weapon or a sword and board. This class had auras that would buff themselves and allies with armor, or reduced knockback on spells, resistances against damage types and more. They had a unique system of judgements and seals, they would cast a seal that would buff their attacks in various ways, then they could expend it on their opponent in a judgement for additional damage or a debuff on them, for example everytime they are hit it returns mana to the attacker or, holy damage vulnerabilities to add to your future attacks. They also had their own special mount which was cool. This class was versatile, able to tank, heal, or damage. The class fantasy although cliche, was very well done.
Priest- Priests could be nasty nasty damage dealers, or healers and buffers. It was always good to make friends with a priest. If they specialized shadow they had shadow form which was iconic and really bad ass looking. Increasing their shadow damage while in it but also not allowing them to cast holy spells. They had one of the best buffs in the game increasing max health of your allies. They had shields, a heal over time, they could negative remove magical effects from allies, even holy priests could dish out some serious damage if you knew what you were doing. Discipline specialized priests could massively buff allies or themself with a huge spell damage buff.
Rogues- Rogues had a very cool take on what they do, they had stealth so they could creep around invisibly. They had energy instead of rage or mana. Special moves that require stealth that gave them potent openers in combat. Poisons to apply to their weapons which had various effects of slows, instant damage, damage over time, reduction in healing received. They had combo points which they would stack up from their basic abilities up to 5 combo points, to use a finisher move that would either stun, nuke, or bleed their opponent over time. Their specializations focused on either the combo points and finishers, or they could play like a swashbuckler with dual wield swords and parry riposte, or they could play as a huge burst initiator from stealth. Or as with all classes in WoW they could hybrid their specializations to get what they wanted out of each specialization.
Hunter- Hunters had traps, pets, and a nasty nasty ranged attack. You could specialize in either marksmanship, beast mastery, or traps and survival. Or a mix of these of course. As a hunter you would go out into the world and tame your pet, each pet had advantages and disadvantages. They would gain power with you as you level, gaining new abilities and moves. In future iterations of wow the pets even had their own talent tree to specialize with. They had multiple aspect buffs. Aspect of the cheetah for speed, monkey for dodge chance, hawk for ranged attack damage, as well as aspect of the pack, to buff your whole party's speed greatly.
TLDR: All of the wow classes had their own interesting mechanics, fantasy, and utility/buffs they provided to the team. Whether it was rogue stealth openers and combo points and energy instead of mana, paladin auras/seals/judgements and specialization versatility tank healing dps, shaman totem buffs and attacks, tank heal dps versatility, mage buff and food/water/portals, warlock healthstone/soulstone, warrior rage/stances/shouts, priests buffs, healing / ability to specialize shadow for damage, druid the only one with a combat resurrection and versatility with shapeshifts and heals/buffs/spell damage/tanking, hunters with pets, traps, and aspect buffs.
I know the classes are still early in design, I hope they have a similar level of fantasy RP appeal, and interesting mechanics that make them all very unique from the foundation of their design. Not just different abilities to use. I think the secondary class system is okay, however I do think the three specialization talent point system of WoW classic gives more player agency as to how they want their character to perform. However this is speculation as it is still very early in class design, let alone the augment system.
Check out how many choices you could make to hand design your class here. https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/
Vanilla WoW is a game that pulls many of us back on and off for years and years. The leveling in that game is so basic yet addicting. Every class was distinct and represented its fantasy perfectly.
The specializations of each class in wow were also well made. First of all you got one point every level to look forward to. You could multi specialize between three different talent trees, you had so many choices to make to custom tune your character exactly how you wanted them to be.
I have some concerns about the flavor or fantasy of the classes in AoC so I figured now that the classes are beginning to be fleshed out i'd voice some of that here. For example, having a class named tank, could severely limit the possibilities of other classes tanking. In classic wow warriors, druids, paladins, and shamans could all tank dungeons, for raids it was typically druids and warriors, perhaps paladins but I never really played alliance to find out. Also many classes could fill different roles and specialize in many different ways, they all had something unique they brought to the table. Whether it was buffs, mage food/water, warlock healthstones, shaman totems, paladin aura's, warrior shouts, and on and on. There were many hybrid like classes with the shaman druid and paladin which were very versatile. The combined primary and secondary class names give people a lot of hope for the fantasy of the class, although some of the summoner ones do look very interesting as it changes their summons other than that it seems to be mostly merely a name.
Warrior- Warriors had their own unique rage system, that came with a mini game of balancing stances with their own abilities and advantages and disadvantages with each stance, a good warrior was a master at managing his rage when switching stances. They also knew that sometimes it was necessary mid battle to switch to the sword and board to absorb damage or bash a spell, then switch back to dish it out. When a warrior changes stances he lost all his rage unless he specialized to keep around 20 when changing, this mini game was addictive. They never used any magic, all their attacks and abilities were based around their weapon and rage as well as their tankyness and aggressive rageful demeanor. They had distinct specializations that encouraged tanking and becoming a stun menace or dual wielding and 2 handed weapons. Which you could blend to make your own custom built character, taking aspects from all, or two. Warriors were fierce their fantasy was well done between the rage system, shouts to buff yourself and allies, stances lack of magics or anything appearing magical, and more. Warriors are my favorite so im a bit biased. The idea of a warrior with mana makes me queasy, same for a warrior with magical looking attacks. It just doesnt seem to fit the fantasy at all.
Mage- Mage's were very interesting, They specialized in arcane and elemental magic. For their go to basic spell attack there was three versions, arcane missles, fireball, they all had slight differences, the arcane missles were channeled and went around walls, frostbolt slowed targets, fireball did the most damage and left a small burn over time. You could specialize for each of these types, or mix match your specialization. It greatly mattered to recognize what type of mage you were battling to know how to fight them best. Every specialization felt like its own class. If you played wow PvP you know how fierce the arcane fire multi specialized mages were. Or if you were a warrior like me, how annoying the frost mages can be. Mages could open portals across the world, create food and water for friends. They could buff allies with extra intellect, remove curses from allies. They sported big damage especially in AOE, This added to the mage fantasy and really made it a interesting powerful but squishy ally to have around.
Warlock- Many time's multiple spell casters in games can feel to similar, this was not the case with the warlock. The warlock had life drains, mana drains, summoned evil looking pets, curses, fears. You could specialize for damage over time and drains, or big burst nukes, or specialize for your pets and be way tankier than the other specializations. It's not often you see a tanky caster. They could harvest souls of conquered foes to summon stronger pets. They could also use souls to create healthstones that act as health potions for allies, or soulstones to revive the fallen if it was used prior to their death. They had their own special dreadsteed mount which was epic. The Warlock fantasy is truely near perfect and I dont even play warlocks.
Druid- A true hybrid class, they sported damaging spells, healing, and shape shifts for physical damage and utility/stuns. The specializations were for each of those three things. However even a spellcasting or healing druid would shape shift for either the cat forms stealth, or bears stun, and on and on. Bear had rage instead of mana like the warrior, cat had energy instead of mana like the rogue As would the feral shapeshifting specialization use heals and damaging spells. They had innervate which would replenish mana of a ally swiftly, a couple buffs, as well as great healing over time. The jack of all trades. The nature aspect of this class was excellently implemented. This class could tank dungeons and raids. This was the only class who could resurect a ally in the middle of a battle.
Shaman- Another true hybrid class, they didn't use shapeshifts they used the power of the elements to buff their weapons, and cast their spells. They had totems that buffed themselves and their team, or the fire totems could dish out damage, one for each element could be deployed at a time. The buffs ranged from melee, to mana, healing, fear and sleep removal, strength, agility, tankyness. They were a necessity in raids for these buffs. They had a chain heal, one of few heal spells that targeted multiple allies. Some of my fondest memories were playing a hybrid specialized shaman dealing massive spell damage and weapon attack damage with my two handed weapon buffed with the element of air. This class could even tank dungeons, however not raids. The elements and totems really gave this class a unique fantasy. Each quest for your new element totem was epic.
Paladin- The paladin used the holy light to heal allies and damage foes. They could be seen sporting a big two handed weapon or a sword and board. This class had auras that would buff themselves and allies with armor, or reduced knockback on spells, resistances against damage types and more. They had a unique system of judgements and seals, they would cast a seal that would buff their attacks in various ways, then they could expend it on their opponent in a judgement for additional damage or a debuff on them, for example everytime they are hit it returns mana to the attacker or, holy damage vulnerabilities to add to your future attacks. They also had their own special mount which was cool. This class was versatile, able to tank, heal, or damage. The class fantasy although cliche, was very well done.
Priest- Priests could be nasty nasty damage dealers, or healers and buffers. It was always good to make friends with a priest. If they specialized shadow they had shadow form which was iconic and really bad ass looking. Increasing their shadow damage while in it but also not allowing them to cast holy spells. They had one of the best buffs in the game increasing max health of your allies. They had shields, a heal over time, they could negative remove magical effects from allies, even holy priests could dish out some serious damage if you knew what you were doing. Discipline specialized priests could massively buff allies or themself with a huge spell damage buff.
Rogues- Rogues had a very cool take on what they do, they had stealth so they could creep around invisibly. They had energy instead of rage or mana. Special moves that require stealth that gave them potent openers in combat. Poisons to apply to their weapons which had various effects of slows, instant damage, damage over time, reduction in healing received. They had combo points which they would stack up from their basic abilities up to 5 combo points, to use a finisher move that would either stun, nuke, or bleed their opponent over time. Their specializations focused on either the combo points and finishers, or they could play like a swashbuckler with dual wield swords and parry riposte, or they could play as a huge burst initiator from stealth. Or as with all classes in WoW they could hybrid their specializations to get what they wanted out of each specialization.
Hunter- Hunters had traps, pets, and a nasty nasty ranged attack. You could specialize in either marksmanship, beast mastery, or traps and survival. Or a mix of these of course. As a hunter you would go out into the world and tame your pet, each pet had advantages and disadvantages. They would gain power with you as you level, gaining new abilities and moves. In future iterations of wow the pets even had their own talent tree to specialize with. They had multiple aspect buffs. Aspect of the cheetah for speed, monkey for dodge chance, hawk for ranged attack damage, as well as aspect of the pack, to buff your whole party's speed greatly.
TLDR: All of the wow classes had their own interesting mechanics, fantasy, and utility/buffs they provided to the team. Whether it was rogue stealth openers and combo points and energy instead of mana, paladin auras/seals/judgements and specialization versatility tank healing dps, shaman totem buffs and attacks, tank heal dps versatility, mage buff and food/water/portals, warlock healthstone/soulstone, warrior rage/stances/shouts, priests buffs, healing / ability to specialize shadow for damage, druid the only one with a combat resurrection and versatility with shapeshifts and heals/buffs/spell damage/tanking, hunters with pets, traps, and aspect buffs.
I know the classes are still early in design, I hope they have a similar level of fantasy RP appeal, and interesting mechanics that make them all very unique from the foundation of their design. Not just different abilities to use. I think the secondary class system is okay, however I do think the three specialization talent point system of WoW classic gives more player agency as to how they want their character to perform. However this is speculation as it is still very early in class design, let alone the augment system.
Check out how many choices you could make to hand design your class here. https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/
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Comments
As for cross-class roles, augments should in theory cover that. Your healer wears heavy armor that gives him a ton of mana? Let him get tank as a secondary, add some threat generation on his heals and now you have yourself a healer that tanks. Your bard has some OE gear? Give him some fighter augments and how he's the main dps instead of support. So on and so on.
Yeah, I'm fairly certain that should be on the list of things that you can control too.
Tank archetype is the role who plays tank, none of the others. However with the build choices in this game - gear, weapon, secondary class, augments, what abilities to spec into, etc. - this gives you a ton of different varieties of tank. So you want to see a Paladin style tank? Try a Tank/Cleric build, and that then becomes your class and it's called Paladin. You want a more traditional Warrior tank? You can try Tank/Tank for a Guardian class build, or Tank/Fighter for a Knight build.
That's just three of at least 8 basic tank classes in this game. The same goes for each of the other 8 archetypes. Remember the game has 8 archetypes, but 64 classes. The terminology matters here to understanding the system.
I would suggest reading up on the Augment system in addition to the Archetype/Class page on the wiki to help understand how Ashes will achieve what you're asking with just a different system. Here's an important quote from the wiki:
Careful there... There are a number of quotes that could question that "primary archetype chooses your role"claim.
Personally I hope some secondaries can shift those roles some.
- In 2004, the classes in WoW felt more fleshed out than other MMOs at the time. A rogue played smoother in WoW than EQ2. I had a deeper sense of skill progression as I leveled in WoW than SWG.
- I think the racial / class / faction constraints for the first number of years in WoW helped players have more alts that were focused on a given class & spec, than if it were any race any class any weapon. As WoW became more casual, the classes also seemed to become more homogenous.
- The vanilla / BC spec tree felt like it gave more play style options even within a spec to really calibrate a build. This took waay too much gold, but I had a very particular hemp sword spec that I felt more invested in than ten years later even though I was more powerful. I’m hoping the augment & skill system in Ashes has that same eye toward fine-tuning.
Just my 2 cents.
Not really. The wiki has quotes from Steven as recent as 2 years ago that are pretty clear that your primary archetype chooses your role. From there your secondary archetype and augments help define and customize that role. You can move the needle towards one end or another - so you can be a tankier mage for example, but that doesn't make you a tank. You're still just a ranged magic dps with more survivability.
I don't know why that's a problem. You still have 8 different ways (at the very least) to do each of those 8 roles. So you still have a ton of customization there.
The classes (archetype combinations) need to be propertly individualized both in gameplay and visuals or there will be a massive amount of disappointed fans.
I seriously hope Intrepid reads all this and avoid taking the convenient, cheap way out of the whole class matter.
Primary no, Secondary yes.
I'm not saying that IS what it is going to be, I'm just saying it's possible and they haven't said no yet.
22 May 17 Livestream
Robert Lashley: Is Trinity there in the PvE portion of the game?
Steven Sharif:*sigh* so, not in a traditional sense of what a Trinity is for the adventuring classes. There's obviously going to be roles. There are going to be dials on your class for customization than can make that role split higher. and you have customization in where your character lands in that tree. But will you need a umm...
Jeffrey Bard: A tank, healer, and DPS.
SS: Right, exactly.
JB: Yeah
SS: And to a sense...
JB: Yeah.
SS: You will
JB: we are pretty much designing towards that, with some flexibility.
SS: But not in a traditional sense. With our secondary class system and being able to incorporate flavors of the different archtypes, you are going to be able to take a non traditional DPS and maybe move it into a tank sector, or maybe a self heal-sector.
JB: we want people to build parties the way the build their character. where, you know, there are interesting combinations to be had. we don't yet know what all those combinations will be.
LAZY PEON INTERVIEW 4-20-19
LP: how deep is the Trinity integrated into the games balancing?
SS: The Trinity is... as you know we have our 8 base archetypes, and the Trinity is a pretty strong influence in regards to the 8 base classes. However, the area in which we get to play with that line in between the Trinity is in secondary classes you can pick. That's where we begin to blend those spaces and allow people a bit of influence over their role and whether or not they fit perfectly into a particular category within the trinity. So for example we've said in the past if you are a tank primary archtype and your secondary is a mage, get all of your active from the primary. the secondary class allows you to influence those active skills with what we call augments, the augments reflect the identity of the secondary class. With a mage you have the augment of teleportation, you have the augment of elemental magic.***insert tank charge gaining teleport example***
25 Jul 20 Livestream
SS: the design behind augments is not just to change the flavor so that it reflects the secondary archtype, but it also fundamentally changes the core components of the skill.
***...more charging w/teleport example...***(I really wish they would start using new examples)
The idea behind the secondary augment system is to provide that ability to move the dial between what your classic archetype's role is within that Trinity system, and it does so by radically changing the core components of an ability.
21 Jul 17 group dynamics blog post on IS website.
Now we’re talking – this is the nitty gritty of group dynamics in Ashes of Creation. While we’re including traditional Tank, DPS, and Support roles our secondary class system and augments system make customizing your character of the utmost import. We want players and their builds to feel malleable in Ashes of Creation. We never want you to feel pigeonholed into a single role, but at the same time we want roles and customization choices to be meaningful.