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Can you compare moba to mmo pvp?

BaersBaers Member, Alpha Two
edited August 2022 in General Discussion
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Comments

  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    No.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yes.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I mean, you can compare anything. Often it won't make sense.
  • HinotoriHinotori Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Can you? Yes.

    Should you? Is another question entirely.
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    The world is beautiful whenever you're here.
    And all the emptiness inside disappears.
  • WarthWarth Member
    You can.
    You shouldn't as the base premises of both are inherently different.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You shouldn't.
  • LashLash Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    For a moba game you are starting at 0 progression and you experience an accelerated leveling and item acquisition process in the span of 30-60 minutes. For an mmo the pvp experience is separate from the progression aspects. People are not typically gaining new skills and items during a pvp encounter in an mmo. MMO pvp would be closer to a match in an FPS game than it would be to a moba in that regard.

    I guess if you break it down into second to second gameplay you could compare them. Interactions with CC and teamwork are pretty close to what you would get in an MMO.
  • DizzDizz Member
    Yes you can.

    The game type of moba is part of mmo pvp in short, but Ashes won't do that kind of contents as I know.
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  • MaiWaifuMaiWaifu Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I guess it depends on what aspects you want to compare...

    Combat mechanic/gameplay?

    Item utility/optimization?

    Skill floor/ceiling?

    Personal player objectives/goals?

    Balance updates?

    Entertainment value?

    There's a lot of specific aspects you can try and directly compare but I don't think many of them would be fair comparisons since the scope and aims of the games are quite different.

    It's like comparing films of 2 different genres. Yeah you can compare quality of acting but there's a lot which might just come down to preference from the genre rather than being objectively better.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I would say you can utilize ability designs and group pvp aspects for comparison but not much else.
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  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »
    I would say you can utilize ability designs and group pvp aspects for comparison but not much else.

    Well it's also a fairly PvX genre where map design is a key pillar for encounter balance, something I think Ashes is going to need to study and refine quite a lot, especially when it comes to siege design so I'd add that to the list as well.
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  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Can? Of course. Should? What authority are you appealing to as to whether you should or shouldn’t? Odd questions.

    Here’s a better question: why? What are you hoping to advocate for or against by comparing them?
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  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Certain aspects sure... But can you be more specific?
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    JustVine wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    I would say you can utilize ability designs and group pvp aspects for comparison but not much else.

    Well it's also a fairly PvX genre where map design is a key pillar for encounter balance, something I think Ashes is going to need to study and refine quite a lot, especially when it comes to siege design so I'd add that to the list as well.

    I could see that for battlegrounds and arenas, but honestly the way MOBAs are designed, the only thing the maps can be relative to are Arena/Objective PvP maps
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  • DarkTidesDarkTides Member
    I try to think of something in moba combat that an mmorpg hasnt had by now.... I think anything thats been in a moba has in some way been in an mmorpg as well, but depends on the games. They all combine various ways of executing combat, and in doing so, distinguishes them from one another.

    I know I dont like the lack of abilities on my hotbar in a MOBA.

    Dont like the isometric view when compared to 3rd person.

    Not a fan of continual/endless click move click attack

    Lots to think of really. Have to really know yourself and the games out there to provide a detailed opinion.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    DarkTides wrote: »
    I try to think of something in moba combat that an mmorpg hasnt had by now.... I think anything thats been in a moba has in some way been in an mmorpg as well, but depends on the games. They all combine various ways of executing combat, and in doing so, distinguishes them from one another.

    I know I dont like the lack of abilities on my hotbar in a MOBA.

    Dont like the isometric view when compared to 3rd person.

    Not a fan of continual/endless click move click attack

    Lots to think of really. Have to really know yourself and the games out there to provide a detailed opinion.

    There are a couple action combat mobas. And 6-12 action buttons is on brand with an MMO too.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    I would say you can utilize ability designs and group pvp aspects for comparison but not much else.

    Well it's also a fairly PvX genre where map design is a key pillar for encounter balance, something I think Ashes is going to need to study and refine quite a lot, especially when it comes to siege design so I'd add that to the list as well.

    I could see that for battlegrounds and arenas, but honestly the way MOBAs are designed, the only thing the maps can be relative to are Arena/Objective PvP maps

    I think you misunderstand kind of. Sieges will be effected by the terrain of the node being sieged as well as the layout of the node's structures. So in order to understand the effects of these things they can use the principles found in other PvX games map design to help inform them.

    Caravan's are a weaker example but are also going to essentially be 'payloads that need to be pushed from point a to point b' and the design of the routes between those two points are going to have a large impact on PvP over the course of the games lifespan. Other games with PvX especially a moving payload style PvX are certainly games I think IS could find useful to discuss amongst themselves.
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  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    The question isn't could you. The question is: why would you want to?
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  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    You shouldn't it's completely different
  • DarkTidesDarkTides Member
    SirChancelot wrote: »
    DarkTides wrote: »
    I try to think of something in moba combat that an mmorpg hasnt had by now.... I think anything thats been in a moba has in some way been in an mmorpg as well, but depends on the games. They all combine various ways of executing combat, and in doing so, distinguishes them from one another.

    I know I dont like the lack of abilities on my hotbar in a MOBA.

    Dont like the isometric view when compared to 3rd person.

    Not a fan of continual/endless click move click attack

    Lots to think of really. Have to really know yourself and the games out there to provide a detailed opinion.

    There are a couple action combat mobas. And 6-12 action buttons is on brand with an MMO too.

    Yeah my mistake for singling out MOBAs for a lack of abilities on my bar... MMOs have had, what I personally consider to be, a lack of abilities, like New World. I should have said I dont like a lack of abilities in any game. Moba or mmorpg.

    The other 2 criticisms I made were not directly singling out MOBAs, though I can see how that could be inferred.

    This is why I started off my reply the way I did. Moba or not, theyve probably both shared the same aspects of combat by now, with all the different games that have been created. So unless youve played absolutely every single moba and mmorpg out there, then its hard to call out a specific genre for having or lacking something, as someone will always have a reply to say well this game has that too and thats a moba, or that game has that too and thats an mmorpg.

    So really, its a secret sauce of various aspects that make or break the combat, which depends on what players find most appealing and fun.

    Tailoring those aspects for what is trying to be accomplished, I suppose, is why we see the differences we do.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Well Albion Online and league of legends combat fundamentally the same, 4-5 buttons top down, skills shots and non skill shot skills and so on.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Can you reply to such a topic. Yes. Should you? Prolly not.
  • GandalfthegrapeGandalfthegrape Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You can compare anything. But there's different power systems in each like dota is a minturized small scale mmo with a clear objective you play over 30 ish min. You level up and gain items while doing certain things that give you rewards. You pull creeps to balance the wave for your carry, you get vision so you don't get ganked. It's generally based on skill but there is some amount of luck to certain things. Rosh spawns evasion etc. In wow you buy the game, then you buy your character boost, then you buy wow tokens to get gear from the action house so you can then buy more wow tokens to get a guild to carry you through mythic so you have the most powerful gear in the game with no abbility to play and then you go into av and you get killed at snowfall gy for 7 minutes straight by a rogue cause your team capped the gy. you now unistal because you spent 400$ on wow tokens but you're still losing to a fresh geared rogue by a player with 22,000 hours and don't understand how to use the group finder let alone get past 1500 in arena. Cause the game only showed you how to use your basic abilities before sending you to buy a wow token while your chat is being spammed with carry runs.
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