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In regard to taxes

ClamchopsClamchops Member, Alpha Two
in General Discussion
I am very interested in the idea of a tax-free society. As such, I'm dying to know if there are other ways for a node to collect revenue such as donations, lotteries, or issuing debt instruments such as Treasury bonds that offer interest?

Comments

  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    Nothing like this has been planned or mentioned so i assume no.
  • ClamchopsClamchops Member, Alpha Two
    Warth wrote: »
    Nothing like this has been planned or mentioned so i assume no.
    I know that it's not planned, but I was hoping to at least plant the seed in the devs heads.
  • FynsilFynsil Member
    Clamchops wrote: »
    I am very interested in the idea of a tax-free society.
    I would imagine that none of the nodes that become "tax-free" would ever get into the higher stages of Town, City, or Metropolis. Simply because taxes are the funds with which nodes finance building defenses, hiring mercenaries, and other operations. Sadly, the only way to amass that kind of wealth is through taxation of the economy.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Why would anyone buy such a bond since the node would have no revenue with which to pay it back?

    Organized society needs revenues to provide the functions and services that citizens demand.

    Edit: A lottery is a tax on people who can't do math.
  • ClamchopsClamchops Member, Alpha Two
    The most successful society IRL started with the revolt of taxes. Taxes are a detriment to society. there are many ways a sovereign state can collect revenue outside of taxes. You may believe a lottery is a tax on people who can't do the math, and there might be some truth to that, but imagine a BIS gear being up for lottery... how fun would that be? I feel a free economy is essential to the economic node class. Taxes are a hindrance on freedom IRL and I sincerely believe that the game will be hindered by taxes. This is a serious concern for me and at least 1%* of the community.

    * 1% value taken from the amount of people who voted libertarian in the 2020 elections.
  • ButtercupCloverButtercupClover Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Clamchops wrote: »
    imagine a BIS gear being up for lottery... how fun would that be?

    No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Also as a crafter I'm gonna have to say a hard NO!
  • ClamchopsClamchops Member, Alpha Two
    I just dont understand what the problem is
    ButtercupClover wrote: »
    Clamchops wrote: »
    imagine a BIS gear being up for lottery... how fun would that be?

    No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Also as a crafter I'm gonna have to say a hard NO!

    I just don't understand what the problem is. 50% can go to the node just like IRL how it goes to the state. So, you're okay with people buying the mayoral seat but not having lottery for gear? that's inconsistent. I just want to have a free society in a game since we can't have one in real life. If it fails, it fails, can we at least put it in the alpha and try?
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    How in the world is this node, which has no income since it has no taxes, going to get a very valuable item to auction off for money?

    Don't say someone is going to give it to the node, since nobody with something that valuable gives it away, right?
  • ClamchopsClamchops Member, Alpha Two
    Fynsil wrote: »
    Clamchops wrote: »
    I am very interested in the idea of a tax-free society.
    I would imagine that none of the nodes that become "tax-free" would ever get into the higher stages of Town, City, or Metropolis. Simply because taxes are the funds with which nodes finance building defenses"

    yes, that's what I am advocating that they change. Taxes are not only a detriment to a society but limit the amount of resources that a state has the opportunity to collect. I truly believe that the "economic" nodes should be able to be free societies with the option of 0% tax rates. Heavily rely on the players' devotion to their nodes by supporting them financially through volunteerism.
  • ButtercupCloverButtercupClover Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The problem is that as a seller, I want to chose who can buy my product. If there's a known griefer that lives in my node, I probably wouldn't want them to even have a chance at buying BiS gear through a lottery system at all.

    It's still possible to have a free society, as long as one person is covering the town's costs. If the tax rate stays at 0% and gets increased to max whenever someone wishes to donate, then most players living in the node will never worry about taxes. Problem is that a node's maintenance costs probably won't be reasonably supported by a couple wealthy players donating gold.
  • ClamchopsClamchops Member, Alpha Two
    ButtercupClover wrote: »
    The problem is that as a seller, I want to chose who can buy my product. If there's a known griefer that lives in my node, I probably wouldn't want them to even have a chance at buying BiS gear through a lottery system at all.

    It's still possible to have a free society, as long as one person is covering the town's costs. If the tax rate stays at 0% and gets increased to max whenever someone wishes to donate, then most players living in the node will never worry about taxes. Problem is that a node's maintenance costs probably won't be reasonably supported by a couple wealthy players donating gold.

    As a seller, you should endorse the idea of a fee market as your labor and time will demand that the highest bidder pay you for your time and skill. As for node costs, Players will be willing to voluntarily give up more of their earnings than in a compulsory state because they love their node and they want to see it succeed. Honestly, If they don't create a tax haven, I will just take to the high seas and my metropilous will be an island controlled by a band of theifs and pirates. long live Robin Hood, who stole from the tax collectors to give back to the tax slaves.
  • ButtercupCloverButtercupClover Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    As a seller, I endorse the node I live in lasting beyond a month. Without taxes the node deteriorates and I will probably lose access to high tier crafting facilities. With all tax money being used only for the city and no personal uses, I don't see why it would be a problem. That said, pirates life is also a valid way to live. Your taxes will come from ship repairs instead of building and wall repairs but it's still a portion of your money being used to keep the thing you live in from falling apart.
  • ClamchopsClamchops Member, Alpha Two
    ButtercupClover wrote: »
    As a seller, I endorse the node I live in lasting beyond a month. Without taxes the node deteriorates and I will probably lose access to high tier crafting facilities. With all tax money being used only for the city and no personal uses, I don't see why it would be a problem. That said, pirates life is also a valid way to live. Your taxes will come from ship repairs instead of building and wall repairs but it's still a portion of your money being used to keep the thing you live in from falling apart.

    Thats not what the founders of the United Sates thought.
  • ClamchopsClamchops Member, Alpha Two
    ButtercupClover wrote: »
    As a seller, I endorse the node I live in lasting beyond a month. Without taxes the node deteriorates and I will probably lose access to high tier crafting facilities. With all tax money being used only for the city and no personal uses, I don't see why it would be a problem. That said, pirates life is also a valid way to live. Your taxes will come from ship repairs instead of building and wall repairs but it's still a portion of your money being used to keep the thing you live in from falling apart.

    Great point about the pirate life. All the necessary resources will come from donations or from voluntary means. Being that the Dev team is from California, I fully expect them to ignore the idea of free societies and tax- free zones.
  • ButtercupCloverButtercupClover Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    "No taxation without representation" means they acknowledge taxes are needed but they refuse to pay taxes to people who don't acknowledge their needs or opinions.

    This is also Vera, if enough people agree with your free state then you can run for election to test it out. Sometimes trial and error is the best way to learn.
  • ClamchopsClamchops Member, Alpha Two
    ButtercupClover wrote: »
    "No taxation without representation" means they acknowledge taxes are needed but they refuse to pay taxes to people who don't acknowledge their needs or opinions.

    This is also Vera, if enough people agree with your free state then you can run for election to test it out. Sometimes trial and error is the best way to learn.

    Well the only problem with that is that I want to be part of an economic node where only the rich are powerful.which is amazing.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Wouldn't it be interesting to run an experiment where two nodes have a node war.

    One node has a 0% tax rate and relies on donations or whatever. The other node has a tax rate that is normal for the server.

    The nodes are the same level, have the same population of similar players, are the same type of node and in every way possible are similar to each other...except for the tax rate.

    Which node do you think will win that war?
  • BaSkA_9x2BaSkA_9x2 Member, Alpha Two
    Clamchops wrote: »
    I am very interested in the idea of a tax-free society.

    Totally agree, taxes are unethical. However, any would society still need money to pay for private services, which means that's now a voluntary society.

    But you can't expect players to do services such as cleaning the streets, doing maintenance of the walls, etc. to earn money and obviously a game doesn't need those services. For that reason and for reasons such as escapism, creating conflict and rewarding mayors/monarchs, Ashes will have mandatory taxes.

    Like in real life, you'll probably still be able to evade taxes by only doing private trades, but you won't be able to evade housing taxes.

    On a side note, I believe that the Nodes with the lowest taxes will be the ones which will organically attract the most players, therefore level up faster. I say organically because there will be Nodes where 70%+ of their population will be from the same guild, and those will probably level up very quickly no matter how high taxes are.
    🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
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