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Bard Class Idea I Made While Bored at Work :)
TheSandMan
Member
Base Bard Class
Concept: All-rounder class that emulates music into musical combos called Songs. Songs must be memorized, equipped, and only work upon collecting them throughout the world or by leveling. The class is heavily moba inspired, but with a deeper level of progression and customization.
[Flavor Passive] Overly dramatic: When an enemy is slain by a bard, other enemies within a radius of the slain foe get a brief damage debuff.
[Passive] Every 3 basic ability casts cause your next basic attack to slow the enemy.
[Q] Mid-range radius dmg originating from the caster. (Think like thunderclap in DnD but 15 ft radius)
[W] Mid-range radius heal originating from the caster.
[E] Mid-range radius movement speed buff originating from the caster. Can affect allies.
[R] Take a Bow: Push enemies away from the caster in a radius and start a song.
Songs are spells that are casted through a combination of the [Q][W][E] keys, which are called notes. Notes cast their corresponding base abilities for free if they are played in the correct order. Upon failure of a song everything is put on cd. Auto attacks do not disrupt the song, but there will be a time limit between each note. If the correct note isn’t played before the time limit ends, the song fails.
Songs: These can be anything from buffs to aoe supernovas. They allow a lot of room for customization for subclasses, or even for Bards to be the one class that forgoes subclasses completely. EXAMPLE: [Q][W][Q][E] Causes Large Radius Heal.
I think this is a better fit to replace the traditional mage class, which for the most part has been left to just spam dps spells off cd. With bards taking up the mantle, but in a much more flavorful capacity. Mages can now focus on a more creative and complex kit rather than just another fire bolt machine.
Concept: All-rounder class that emulates music into musical combos called Songs. Songs must be memorized, equipped, and only work upon collecting them throughout the world or by leveling. The class is heavily moba inspired, but with a deeper level of progression and customization.
[Flavor Passive] Overly dramatic: When an enemy is slain by a bard, other enemies within a radius of the slain foe get a brief damage debuff.
[Passive] Every 3 basic ability casts cause your next basic attack to slow the enemy.
[Q] Mid-range radius dmg originating from the caster. (Think like thunderclap in DnD but 15 ft radius)
[W] Mid-range radius heal originating from the caster.
[E] Mid-range radius movement speed buff originating from the caster. Can affect allies.
[R] Take a Bow: Push enemies away from the caster in a radius and start a song.
Songs are spells that are casted through a combination of the [Q][W][E] keys, which are called notes. Notes cast their corresponding base abilities for free if they are played in the correct order. Upon failure of a song everything is put on cd. Auto attacks do not disrupt the song, but there will be a time limit between each note. If the correct note isn’t played before the time limit ends, the song fails.
Songs: These can be anything from buffs to aoe supernovas. They allow a lot of room for customization for subclasses, or even for Bards to be the one class that forgoes subclasses completely. EXAMPLE: [Q][W][Q][E] Causes Large Radius Heal.
I think this is a better fit to replace the traditional mage class, which for the most part has been left to just spam dps spells off cd. With bards taking up the mantle, but in a much more flavorful capacity. Mages can now focus on a more creative and complex kit rather than just another fire bolt machine.
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Comments
Yes, those parts are rather boring, it would mostly come down to how interesting you design the songs. I think having it be combos is a lot more interesting than just spamming stuff off cd though.
Maybe for a more imaginative spell example you could summon terrain around you in an area for cover. It's pretty open ended.
It also allows room for you to change which song you cast mid-way through depending on how well you have your combos memorized and how fast you can think. The other abilities were mostly just placeholder. So having compounding buffs on [Q][W][E] would work just as well.
The "chaining to get more songs" idea is good and sensible. But you do have to remember that we have 10+RMB ability slots in Ashes, at minimum, even if they don't allow us to have a second hotbar.
The thing about Bard, as a class, is that the entire design comes down, largely, to what songs are available, and what ranges and other limitations they come with. I can only say that this design is incomplete. With less than four abilities (and none of the planned "combo songs") defined, there isn't really a class design to consider. So...
Monster Hunter style "note chaining to get songs" is fine with me.
Obviously it wouldn't have the 300+ unique keys that mmos try to cram in, but in my opinion having that in a combat system is just heavily outdated.
I don't think you need a lot of buttons for a large system... You could have around 30 different songs, all castable at the same time but locked behind a few buttons. They could easily be linked to a skill tree and even the augment system within the game for much larger customization.
Say you wanted to be a combat bard. You could just swap out your [Q][W][E] abilities in the skill tree for abilities that favor your playstyle. I'd be open to having more Note keys as well.
It wasn't intended to be complete either, just a base model to expand upon.
True, but in my ideal world other classes would be a tad bit more complex than they usually are. Bards would probably draw in players that desire combo-based combat. The reward would be scaled to how difficult the task is.
In my head I was thinking that low level songs would just be like 3-4 notes, and then the songs add more notes to them as you go down the skill tree. That way your base song is just expanding rather than you having to relearn a completely new one. I think that allows for enough tutorial space for players to learn their combos.
Then towards the end of the progression you can start introducing more complex songs for them to learn.
It's not for everyone, but things like this usually get cult followings of dedicated players. Having only one of the classes like this shouldn't be too much of a deprecation.
I also wanted it to capture the feeling that you are really playing music, and I think some players can overlook complexities if it adds an extra layer of player immersion.
That said, you get 64 possible combinations of 4 note songs using 3 unique notes (QWE), or 81 possible combinations of 3 note songs using 4 unique notes (QWER).
I don't think the MOBA style "you have to make everything you can do fit in 4 ability slots" works well for Ashes, but even if you do prefer it, it might be better to stick to shorter songs. You get the same 64 from 2 "beats" of 8 unique notes. It definitely changes the experience, but I'm not convinced Ashes' core design will allow for a good experience with meaningfully longer songs in the first place.
I Guess it would be like comparing it to protecting mages while they do long incantations in the backline. It's more about fulfilling the fantasy of combat for me. Trading off large cast times for more powerful spells is an interesting dynamic I'd like to see in a video game. Even if you have to denote a portion of your group to make it viable. You can also offer more self-peel mechanics for the bards in order to make it easier to get off.
Also, low level spells would only only be like 3-4 notes. Then progress by adding a note as you go down the skill tree. Any 8 note songs would be for large scale battles within late game content. You can have larger songs and smaller songs for different scenarios, as well.
But oh well, it is subjective, and you don't seem to be vibing with it lmao.
The problem with this design is that Mages get a payoff, at the end of the spell casting which is generally proportional to the time invested. Bards either do not, or get far more, and which of the two happens is defined by the circumstances, which makes it impossible to balance.
The Bard finishes their long-cast buff, and it takes effect. Let's assume that the Bard normally gives 100 power. It is now either:
1: "standard strength" (100 power) and applies for only 60% of the fight, allowing people to get "100 * 60%" (= 60 power) effect
OR
2: "extra strength" (let's say 167 power) to compensate for that, allowing people to get "167 * 60%" (= 100.2 power) effect
In the first case, the party loses out when they get ambushed because they only got 60% as much effect.
In the second case, it's even worse:
In a normal situation, a Bard can sing that song in their rotation, and keep it up for the duration of whatever content you experience. The game has to be balanced around the Bard giving that 167 power all the time, because that's what they'll sustain over the longer term, after they get the first one off and enter their standard rotation. EITHER they now have to be nerfed becuase 167 is too much, or you didn't get what you needed in the first place, because if 167 was fair, 60% of it (back to the ambush scenario) wasn't enough (which is where we started).
Time isn't fungible in these sorts of situations. "How long a Bard takes to get a buff off when their party is ambushed" is a system parameter that has to be set to match your intended design. Because Bards, unlike Mages, are a sustain class, not a burst one, you can't offset this by changing the "power" variable to compensate. "The amount of time a Bard takes to get their buff off" is not a free variable. It's a locked-in product of "How much disadvantage should the Bard (and their party) be at in an ambush scenario?" That design decision determines what your system can be, and itself is dependent on what your other larger systems need to function, such as "how powerful can ambushing be, as a general tactic, when considering Caravans, Siege environments, general Guild v Guild, etc?"
Game design is a very deep stack of "this needs to be set based on that, which needs to be set based on the other thing, which is determined by the core design intent of the game", and designers need to be experts and starting at the right point (in defining their core design), and getting all these waterfall of calculations for the various different systems correct based on it.
I can't tell you absolutely what the exact numbers for "ambush disadvantage when the party has a Bard instead of another [Fighter, Healer, Tank, Empty Slot, etc]", or even general "ambush disadvantage" are supposed to be. All I can say is that "song casting time" is not a free variable, and there's very little subjective about it within a larger design.
Something we can discuss, and which, upon reflection, is perhaps the actual subjective part, is this:
You can fix the problem I described by making that 167 have a cooldown on it, and setting the duration so that it can in fact only be active 60% of the time, even under normal circumstances. So here's the subjective part: Do we want that?
I don't like the idea of not being able to sustain my songs. Of having my party be fully buffed only half the time, or of having to use less-appropriate buffs for the other half of the time. I feel like this results in a swingyness of the requirements for my party members, as their capabilities vary during the fight, because the power I am able to give them changes. It puts the skill requirement for 'getting songs right' on them, and takes it away, to some degree, from me.
I want to be in charge of figuring out the right capabilities to give my party (by way of buff choices), and keeping up the timing and flow of that while maintaining my other combat actions (I don't intend to play Minstrel (Bard/Bard)), and then keeping track of when they need different capabilities based on the shift in the flow of a fight. This is what Bard is to me.
Someone once suggested "Bard should have very short buffs with very strong effects, so they can watch for the right time to spike their party's damage/defense/whatever". I don't begrudge that person their desire, but I also don't believe that the class that results from it is still "Bard", and I don't want to play the class that does.
When I give my team a buff to suit a phase of a fight, I want them to be able to rely on it, not have them lose the capabilities it granted while they're still in that phase of the fight, because I'm not allowed to sustain it.
But hey. Maybe there's space in the skill tree for that, and I'll just never unlock it. As long as I can spec for 100% power 100% of the time, I'll be fine. Letting you build for 167% power for 60% of the time is another design consideration, but I don't know what other systems that would affect, so I can't say whether or not it would be valid for Ashes. It's a more MOBA style gameplay type, though, and while I don't doubt that's what some people want, I'm not sure it fits the theme and style of Ashes.
But that's my feeling. What's yours? Given the balance requirement, is that still something you'd want?
Well, what I designed wasn’t intended to support the play style you want. Just cuz it doesn’t, doesn’t mean it’s not functional. There isn’t only one kind of bard class that all must follow. Hell even dnd which has one of the oldest bard archetypes doesn’t focus on stat buffs.
I would never make a kit that revolves solely around altering stats, I couldn’t think of anything more mind numbing. That’s where the subjectiveness comes into play.
And like I said, the kit was meant to overstep into the mages area.
Most of the issues you brought up can be fixed by tweaking cds, numbers, the amount of notes per song, and the amount of player agency each spell gives.
Really don’t get where you got the sustained spell part from. Buffs can be casted once with a countdown timer for how long they last…But now that you brought it up it would be cool to have a couple of the songs last until you stop playing it lol.
If you meant the casting time being the sustained part. It’s meant to be a sunk cost for a stronger spell, and the qwe abilities that go off as a result offer short bursts of buffs/heals/dmg that get you through that sunk cost. Play smaller ones if you’re getting ambushed.
I entirely concede that once you are making a class that is no longer sustain based, nor interested in that stat buff, resistance buff, sustained DoT and slows, etc gameplay style (which I personally find to be very engaging when done properly), the things that you are asking for become possible. I would continue to argue that it's no longer Bard at that point, but it's definitely valid as a class. (Sadly, I don't have a name for that kind of Bard-Mage hybrid. Do you?)
Since we do have such different perspectives, can you share some ideas for what types of spells you're thinking of? Whatever I'd come up with myself is sure to fall short due to my different mindset.
@LilWolfe
For the spells I would try to keep them all radius effects so that the bard focuses more on positioning instead of aiming. And so they are less distracted from landing the song combos.
I would want the majority of the spells to be cc/utility, so that they can push back any mobs that manage to get past the tank. This could be roots, sleeps, creating terrain, etc. However, they will be in range to apply extra damage and buffs to around 3/4ths the battlefield if optimal positioning is achieved.
My ideal placement of the bard would be behind the fighters/tanks and in front of the mages/rangers. That way the bards spells would be effecting everyone as well as the front line monsters.
How this could be made into Subclasses would be easier through examples… so here’s my half baked ideas lol.
Summoners using songs to summon creatures then having the notes activate skills of those creatures. Or allowing summons to act as familiars from dnd so you can cast your spells from them.
Warriors using a more monster hunter style song system.
Mages being allowed to break away from the radius style spells, for more targeted abilities and skill shots as well as dmg.
Rangers, bards can use songs to create platform like fortresses from which they can shoot out of.
And clerics I’m actually thinking up a class for which involves placing shrines(landmarks) around the battlefield providing auras. It involves linking shrines with players within your party (self included) to create line spell effects. These can then be used to engrave your holy mark onto the battlefield floor for effects. As well as the actual line healing Allie’s and damaging enemies.
Idk those are just some ways I could think of making subclasses for them.
I would also play around with refreshing partial cooldowns for failure of a song and how far you got into it. This would help with the difficulty, but would require actually playing it to get a feel on what needs to be adjusted.