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Artisan classes trees need rebalancing - Player Discussion

SchmukySchmuky Member
edited September 2022 in General Discussion
Just to be clear, I am not talking about the classes themselves, just the trees (Gathering, Processing, Crafting)

The reason I feel they need to be changed is the imbalance in number of options (particularly the Processing side. Let me explain how I see them:

Gathering: collecting raw materials from the world
Processing: refining the raw materials into craftable materials
Crafting: using craftable materials to turn into items

I think we can all agree thats the way it makes sense to be. However, thats not how the current trees look like. Only the Mining-Smelting-Armour Smithing/Weapon Smithing/Blacksmithing follow this (however, i dont really understand what is the difference between Blacksmithing and weapon+armour smithing, but whatever, maybe they will explain at some point)

If we are to follow this, basically there needs to be added a lot more to the Processing tree, processing wood or plants into items that Carpentry or Alchemy can use. However that will add more classes, so no-no.

Then I say, let's rebalance the trees:
The Gathering Tree is fine as is, all professions there make sense
The Processing tree should be like this: Smelting, Scribes, Cooking, Alchemy.
The Crafting Tree would lose Scribes, Cooking, Alchemy, but gains Animal Husbandry.

Let's look at them one at a time:
-Animal Husbandry: this profession is linked with the Taming on in Gathering. Taming gets the raw materials (in this case: animals) and Animal Husbandry creates the final product. This would make it on par with the Lumberjacking-Carpentry connection, as in essence they are the same.

-Scribes: Scribes can create scrolls, books, enchantments (by the wiki), which means that they are linked to other crafting professions, like Weaponsmithing (the enchantments). So, in essence, the tree would be Mining-Smelting(+Scribing for extra effect)-Weapon Smithing. This is how it would be used in game so it creates an effect to be added rather than a final item. (i know scribes will be able to other stuff as well regarding the map and stuff, but that is extra, I am talking specifically about the utility in crafting)

-Cooking and Alchemy are similar, yes, they can go into the Crafting Tree as they make a product that is useful on its own (potions and food), however, it would be used as a buff rather than a standalone item. Plus, we need to add some stuff here.

HOWEVER, the easiest way to fix this would be deleting the Processing tree, adding Animal Husbandry to the Crafting Tree and removing Smelting as a profession, adding it to the Mining one, letting those that mine the ores to make ingots, the same way I imagine Lumberjacking profession allows to turn logs into planks for example

Last thing I wanna address is the fact that we can master one Artisan Tree and 2 professions within that tree. So, for example, Fishing+Mining or Alchemy+Carpentry.

I think this is a bad idea as it deletes the ability for a player to master a full crafting process. There is no way to master Lumberjacking+Carpentry, even though, as a Master in Carpentry, it would help a lot to also be a master in Lumberjacking so you can get what you need exactly. Also, the fact that I can be a Master Carpenter as well as a Master Alchemist makes no sense, they are waay to different.

I understand the original reasoning, making it social so that players have to interact with each other more. However this is my proposal: You can chose 2 professions to master that are in different trees. So you can choose Lumberjacking+Carpentry and have full control of the process, be able to go get top tier materials and craft them into top tier items. However, the social aspect will still be present because then you need players for all other professions.

I feel it makes more sense this way and keep it more "realistic" (not fully realistic as IRL people would master just 1 thing, but c'est la vie).

What do you all think about this? How should the trees be changed or should they be changed at all?
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    I'm fairly sure we've just not seen all the branches of those trees.
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    SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    I don't see much of a point of arbitrary gatekeeping for professions. If they are 'locked' by necessities then it's fine.

    Technology requirements, Knowledge requirements, Time requirements, Risk requirements, and 'Skill' requirements are fine where appropriate, but profession slots just aren't adding anything.
    If a person wants to gather whatever they want to, run in one direction for 20 minutes and craft their first set of gear referencing a book on Leather Armor and build a Teepee then what's the issue.

    On that note; World could be twice as big and only benefit from it. Professions are part subsistence part market.

    And make it so there are animal/ monster attacks when you log in if you logout outside of shelter or a peaceful area (like falling asleep in the wilderness). Or you get robbed blind. Or you wake up "dead" after a cutscene of being killed if it was a particularly dangerous place.

    Lose some gear if you die; others can pick it off your corpse. Get it 'Soulbound' and others can't wear it. Get it 'Phased' or whatever and it will remain in the world at the location you died, hidden from other players.

    Having armor/ weapons scale from 1x [baseline] useful to 1000x useful isn't good design though. Having durability and repair, with a scale of 1.1x better than naked to 5x as good for Tanks or Fighters [tough classes] or 1.5x to 30x as good for soft classes [heavy armor is 30x tougher than soft mage flesh] instead is still impactful.
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    I don't see much of a point of arbitrary gatekeeping for professions. If they are 'locked' by necessities then it's fine.

    Technology requirements, Knowledge requirements, Time requirements, Risk requirements, and 'Skill' requirements are fine where appropriate, but profession slots just aren't adding anything.
    If a person wants to gather whatever they want to, run in one direction for 20 minutes and craft their first set of gear referencing a book on Leather Armor and build a Teepee then what's the issue.

    On that note; World could be twice as big and only benefit from it. Professions are part subsistence part market.

    And make it so there are animal/ monster attacks when you log in if you logout outside of shelter or a peaceful area (like falling asleep in the wilderness). Or you get robbed blind. Or you wake up "dead" after a cutscene of being killed if it was a particularly dangerous place.

    Lose some gear if you die; others can pick it off your corpse. Get it 'Soulbound' and others can't wear it. Get it 'Phased' or whatever and it will remain in the world at the location you died, hidden from other players.

    Having armor/ weapons scale from 1x [baseline] useful to 1000x useful isn't good design though. Having durability and repair, with a scale of 1.1x better than naked to 5x as good for Tanks or Fighters [tough classes] or 1.5x to 30x as good for soft classes [heavy armor is 30x tougher than soft mage flesh] instead is still impactful.

    wat? i dont see how this is in any way related with the post I made and honestly, the ideas you put up seem kinda shit tbh... getting robbed when logged off? wtf?
    NiKr wrote: »
    I'm fairly sure we've just not seen all the branches of those trees.

    thats true, but until we get more stuff, i consider whats been announced as current
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited September 2022
    Good processing cant be done without a homestead.
    Owning a productive homestead is difficult enough by itself, no need to give it a variety of paths as well.
    The variety is found in what sort of furniture (machinery) you have in your homestead.
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    LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited September 2022
    i don't know bout that but what needs to be balanced is Crafting. It's WAY OP compared to the other trees because there is just no Sink for crafted items.

    We can drop gathered items and processed items upon death/caravans/ships or nodes getting sieged but crafted items NEVER drop or get destroyed besides over enchanting which is definitely not enough and not for all crafted items

    I can load a caravan or load my inventory with gear and travel with no risk at all to lose those items.... and both the other artisan trees have that risk and item sink

    we need either not be able to repair crafted items and let them get destroyed over time, or have crafted items drop and get destroyed from caravans/ships/mules/sieges to balance this out.
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    Another thing to keep in mind is if you want to omni craft you can.. up to ~t4
    from the wiki https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Artisan_classes
    A character may only master one of the three parent artisan classes.[3]

    It is possible to master up to two or three professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[1][6][3][7]
    A character will be able to achieve up to tier 3 or tier 4 proficiency in professions that are not mastered.[1]
    Schmuky wrote: »
    I think this is a bad idea as it deletes the ability for a player to master a full crafting process. There is no way to master Lumberjacking+Carpentry, even though, as a Master in Carpentry, it would help a lot to also be a master in Lumberjacking so you can get what you need exactly. Also, the fact that I can be a Master Carpenter as well as a Master Alchemist makes no sense, they are waay to different.

    I understand the original reasoning, making it social so that players have to interact with each other more. However this is my proposal: You can chose 2 professions to master that are in different trees. So you can choose Lumberjacking+Carpentry and have full control of the process, be able to go get top tier materials and craft them into top tier items. However, the social aspect will still be present because then you need players for all other professions.

    I feel it makes more sense this way and keep it more "realistic" (not fully realistic as IRL people would master just 1 thing, but c'est la vie).

    Unfortunately with the bolded portion of your comment this is a fundamental philosophy disagreement the devs specifically do not want you to be able to control an entire crafting at the highest level of process which is why the system is built this way. However that's where alts come in if you do want to do it solo.

    Personally I like the idea of needing to specialize into one of the core three however I also recognize as it stands the Processing section of the artisan triangle is severely lacking and should actually imo be beefed up with more professions rather than dismantled. As you mentioned there isn't a clear processor between lumberjack and carpenter, imo there ought to be several processors the branch from lumberjack ie Sawyers who process logs into planks, pulpers? who make paper, Smelters (turn logs into charcoal)

    and the same should be fleshed out for others a unique processor for Tanner should be added where it's not a gathering profession per se more pve that gathers the raw materials but perhaps taming could play a part where tamed animals provide more resources for leather working.

    all in all I think they should stay the course you can learn each profession to a base level for moderate gear if you try, it's only mastering being the best of the best where you need to spec and in that instance I think limiting it to 1/3 makes the most sense.


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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited September 2022
    Not even enough info yet to weigh in meaningfully.
    How would even know if they “rebalanced”???
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    SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    Schmuky wrote: »

    wat? i dont see how this is in any way related with the post I made and honestly, the ideas you put up seem kinda shit tbh... getting robbed when logged off? wtf?

    If you don't see the relevance of anything I've said then you have no grounding in reality.

    It's been a while since I've looked into Professions but arbitrary progression just isn't it. Hence; have progressions make sense and remove the limited Mastery. One can "be Rusty" or "get in the groove" for faster production and better outcome when doing the same thing long enough, but a Hardlock just isn't it.

    Larger world with more NPCs and Players = more need for Professions, more Gatherables, more room for Player housing, more economies rather than just 1 centralized one.

    There's no room for Professions if everything lasts for Infinity and is packed in like a can of Tuna. Having items that don't disappear is the shit idea. Having stuff last forever trivializes progress by "floating" your character up the progression ladder in a conveyer belt MMO with no grounding.


    Getting robbed while offline: Don't log for 20 hours sleeping in the grass of deep wilderness with bandits roaming and you won't get killed or robbed.
    Ranger could have camouflage and scent-masking to partially or fully sidestep this.
    Chance could be 1 - 10% every hour with a non-linear ramp, up to a capped % chance of you getting robbed or slaughtered or attacked on login.

    Unique to each location; logging out in some places for over a # of hours may result in being captured and be its own questline. You could wind up as a quest for other players; they gotta save you.
    This can tie into the whole 'Family' thing the dev was talking about [which is for Player families as I understand it] . You get an NPC family member you can control when captured and get a group together in-town to get your Main back.
    You may still have stuff for your Main to do while captured though; maybe fight for their entertainment? Fight to not be sacrificed? Be used as a Profession slave with a chance to escape after a while?

    Being 'captured' probably isn't a great idea since I don't trust Intrepid can deliver a good enough experience but everything else is solid.


    I'll take it further:
    Certain classes should probably get better at Professions and Rust less. Like Mage or something.
    Fighter should be dogsh** at crafting and processing professions. Just make them good at combat.
    Increase lethality and have a high durability loss rate. People should die more often, PvP for loot, or rely on Industry to get through stuff [and as groups].
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited September 2022
    Red players with at least 3 PKs drop whole crafted items...
    That's why it is advised to perform redemption Quests to keep the PK number always close to 0.
    The more PKs you have the higher the corruption per new kill.


    Crafting isnt OP. Without raw material (which gatherers can just farm in the open world), or processed mats (people need to spend money to settup a workshop in a homestead), crafters cant do much.
    I rly dont see the reason for complaining in any of this. What a weird topic.

    Gatherers have to deal with price undercutting, open world pvp and power struggle, ideal for people that want to play outside of the nodes, processers have to settup a homestead and spend a lot of time away from the cool action of combat, and crafters are the last line if production.
    They are called when everything else is ready to perform the craft.
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited September 2022
    I hope that people can see the need for group gameplay.
    Without a group you wont gather much. You will be chased off by other players.
    It's the closest path for loners, but still...

    Without a gatherer friend you cant process and without a crafter you cant create anything.

    And now remember the variety of paths. People need to be in a guild. A small group of 8 friends will have to no life the game in order to be 100% self sufficient.

    Making gold wont be ez in AoC.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited September 2022
    I thought this was about rebalancing professions but now it’s about your avatar staying in the game after you’ve logged out?

    What does Archetype have to do with Profession?
    I think maybe Professions don’t need rebalancing so much as the OP wants to play a different game.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited September 2022
    It's worth noting, if you actually look through the sources for the information in the wiki, many of them are off hand comments.

    Steven has mentioned blacksmithing, weapon smithing and armor smithing, but that doesnt mean they will be three different classes within the crafting tree.

    The wiki has put them there, but it is as much a template for when we get real information on the matter as it is an attempt at presenting facts now.

    This is why the wiki has also given you the sources so you can decide for yourself after knowing what has been said about each class.

    I suggest you follow the links in the wiki on the scribe class, listen to literally everything that has been said about it, and decide if you think it is confirmed as a profession in Ashes or not.
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    @TheWolfofGar, right! I would like to see more information regarding how the entire process will work before moving things around.
    I can agree with @Schmuky, that so far things look odd in how they are currently set. Professions were not something of a priority in the initial phases, although gathering was enabled. I believe it is now part of the current workload they have in agenda. Cant wait to see a more detailed flowchart or breakdown glimpse explaining how it all will work!
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    @TheWolfofGar, right! I would like to see more information regarding how the entire process will work before moving things around.

    Yeah I'm excited to see where they go with the system there seems to be a ton of potential, especially with respect to freeholds as those are intended as the major limiting factor for processors, and therefore it will likely mean customizing your freehold to meet the needs of a few processors at the expense of others. Further increasing diversity in the landscape and encouraging communication where you and your neighbor agree you'll build X,Y,Z and they'll build A,B,C and work together. This is why I think they've held off on announcing many of the processors as they will necessitate in game buildings. If/when they announce a showcase focusing on Freeholds that will probably be when we get that information.

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    Liniker wrote: »
    We can drop gathered items and processed items upon death/caravans/ships or nodes getting sieged but crafted items NEVER drop or get destroyed besides over enchanting which is definitely not enough and not for all crafted items

    Technically the caravans and ships are crafted items that will be destroyed quite frequently But I understand your point.
    Liniker wrote: »
    I can load a caravan or load my inventory with gear and travel with no risk at all to lose those items.... and both the other artisan trees have that risk and item sink

    we need either not be able to repair crafted items and let them get destroyed over time, or have crafted items drop and get destroyed from caravans/ships/mules/sieges to balance this out.

    Surely crafted items are dusted if caravans are raided? they cant be looted and I don't believe they teleport to safety?

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    Red players with at least 3 PKs drop whole crafted items...
    That's why it is advised to perform redemption Quests to keep the PK number always close to 0.
    The more PKs you have the higher the corruption per new kill.

    It's a lame mechanic. Reserving gear loss to PKers is just not it.
    Crafting isnt OP. Without raw material (which gatherers can just farm in the open world), or processed mats (people need to spend money to settup a workshop in a homestead), crafters cant do much.
    I rly dont see the reason for complaining in any of this. What a weird topic.
    "Crafting is OP" just means Professions are OP. You can create all the gear everyone needs, housing, consumables, et cetera. It means it heavily impacts the game experience as a PvE click farm and you NEVER LOSE GEAR; CAN'T be robbed CAN'T drop it on death unless you PK.
    It's a permanent buff to your character basically rather than being a resource you have to maintain and replace.

    Point of MMOs is the process not the arbitrary end goal. Journey not the destination.

    Lack of gear drop and durability loss means the developers will in all likelihood make gear and resources WAY too difficult to make and get though.
    Increase turnover (loss on death, quick degradation) and that problem disappears.
    You say it yourself it will be a sweaty no-lifer group of 8 kind of game in your next message.
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    Dygz wrote: »
    I thought this was about rebalancing professions but now it’s about your avatar staying in the game after you’ve logged out?

    What does Archetype have to do with Profession?
    I think maybe Professions don’t need rebalancing so much as the OP wants to play a different game.

    Not staying in the world; I haven't suggested players and roaming NPCs that others can attack will attack you. I suggested a scripted event basically.

    If you don't understand how loss of gear, transportation and time management affects professions after being given an explanation you have no grounding and are simply rhetorical and dishonest for no reason.
    If you don't see how certain classes having advantages in professions based on physical strength or mental aptitude affects their appeal and lends itself to a bit more organized dynamic; then think about it more.
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    Morg7x7 wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    We can drop gathered items and processed items upon death/caravans/ships or nodes getting sieged but crafted items NEVER drop or get destroyed besides over enchanting which is definitely not enough and not for all crafted items

    Technically the caravans and ships are crafted items that will be destroyed quite frequently But I understand your point.
    Liniker wrote: »
    I can load a caravan or load my inventory with gear and travel with no risk at all to lose those items.... and both the other artisan trees have that risk and item sink

    we need either not be able to repair crafted items and let them get destroyed over time, or have crafted items drop and get destroyed from caravans/ships/mules/sieges to balance this out.

    Surely crafted items are dusted if caravans are raided? they cant be looted and I don't believe they teleport to safety?

    Given that distance between nodes is 3.5 minutes from one edge to the other and there might not be a strong incentive to long distance trade: No I don't think they'll be frequently destroyed.

    I highly doubt everything gets destroyed when you break a caravan.
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    Morg7x7Morg7x7 Member
    edited September 2022
    deleted

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    Morg7x7 wrote: »
    deleted

    Doesn't make sense. Someone got owned by a Rogue and decided PvP is the Devil's Design lol.
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    I agree that the tree setup needs changing but I'm going to wait until we get more information, either on a monthly stream or in A2, then I'll see if it's the same or if there's been any changes.
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    BaSkA_9x2BaSkA_9x2 Member
    edited September 2022
    Don't get me wrong, the Artisan tree might need some rebalancing, but we haven't had an update or news about it in quite some time now and it wasn't really tested in Alpha 1.

    So, even if it needs some balance, we gotta test it first.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited September 2022
    Not staying in the world; I haven't suggested players and roaming NPCs that others can attack will attack you. I suggested a scripted event basically.
    You wrote:
    "Getting robbed while offline: Don't log for 20 hours sleeping in the grass of deep wilderness with bandits roaming and you won't get killed or robbed."
    How would that happen if your avatar does not stay in the world when you are offline?


    If you don't understand how loss of gear, transportation and time management affects professions after being given an explanation you have no grounding and are simply rhetorical and dishonest for no reason.
    I don't understand why a Fighter should be dogshit at Crafting or Processing.


    If you don't see how certain classes having advantages in professions based on physical strength or mental aptitude affects their appeal and lends itself to a bit more organized dynamic; then think about it more.
    Why are you assuming that all Fighters will have low mental apptitude?
    Characters with high Int and high Wis can be Fighters.
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    SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    @Dygz
    Logging out:
    Well it's mostly a nuance. Getting 'robbed' while offline or attacked on login [or killed if it's a terrible place to log off at] would be an event triggered by logging in. With your avatar in the world it would be like seeing an AFK person.

    A player could have up to 3 monster mobs stick around or something and each time they pass by there's a % chance they will take up one of those 'slots'. If they decide to keep moving then that slot is 'locked' so there's a chance 0 - 3 mobs will be there when you log in.
    For bandit types they could wind up setting a little campfire camp not far away within aggro range or something and have patrol paths that happen to go very close to where you logged out. The patrol paths may be designed to overlap with locations players logged out.

    Literally camping you but not so aggressively.

    Aggression level of this 'camping' and 'patroling' would never be 110% and rarely -110%. Yes 110% doesn't make sense. And yes some creatures would avoid players if I were deciding.

    Aggressive pathing and mob/monster location would be Especially LOW if you use some kind of camoflouge and hide or whatever before logging out. This should allow creatures that normally avoid players to wind up closer on login AS WELL.

    HENCE Rangers get a log out/ log in buff when in the Wilds, and can hunt rare-to-find creatures much better.

    Class/Profession:
    For theme. If you dedicate your life to something you tend to be good at it at the exclusion of other things. I'm all for softlocking off-class attributes rather than hardlocking them.

    Having no class perk for professions from their different attributes is a lack of design though.

    It was a bit of an exaggeration but I wouldn't mind more exaggerated characters and classes that lean into their 'Attribute Identity' and 'Class Identity' more.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    🙄
    OK. Thanks for answering the question.
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    Those skill tree lists on the wiki are incomplete so I wouldn't worry about the imbalance quite yet. Lack of info and testing makes it irrelevant to declare the system flawed or not at the moment. Best you can do is suggest what to be added or switched in the skill trees.

    Here's some quick/rough ideas for how I would suggest the trees to look. In parentheses I put the correlating professions in the tree before it.

    GATHERING
    Farming
    Fishing
    Herbalism
    Lumberjacking
    Mining
    Taming
    Skinning/field dressing

    PROCESSING
    Milling (lumberjacking)
    Butcher (field dressing, fishing)
    Tanning (skinning)
    Extraction (herbalism)
    Animal husbandry (taming)
    Smelting (mining)

    CRAFTING
    Alchemy (extraction,butcher)
    Armorsmithing (Smelting, leatherworking, animal husbandry)
    ?Blacksmithing (smelting)
    Caravan Building (Milling, Carpentry, blacksmithing)
    ?Carpentry (Milling, blacksmithing)
    Cooking (butcher, farming, fishing)
    Leatherworking (tanning,animal husbandry)
    Jewelcrafting (smelting, mining)
    Scribes (Milling, extraction)
    Ship building (carpentry, Milling, blacksmithing, smelting)
    Siege weapons (carpentry, Milling, Blacksmithing, Smelting)
    Weaponsmithing (smelting)



    Part of me thinks blacksmithing should be part of processing with smelting, seeing as while it may be a craft, it tends to be a craft to assist other crafts from my real world experiences.
    Carpentry could also be considered in the same way as blacksmithing as a craft that supports other crafts, so it could be added to Milling in processing.

    Farming could be considered both a processing and gathering profession

    Feel free to switch some stuff up and make suggestions
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    Dolyem wrote: »
    Feel free to switch some stuff up and make suggestions
    raw stone -> processing -> stone blocks for building
    wood -> processing -> charcoal
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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    SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    @Dolyem
    Food as Processing.
    Butchering as Gathering.
    Harvesting parts from a dead dragon would be a Gathering profession [Butchery]. Days and days they hacked away. . .
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited September 2022
    Dolyem
    Food as Processing.
    Butchering as Gathering.
    Harvesting parts from a dead dragon would be a Gathering profession [Butchery]. Days and days they hacked away. . .

    This doesnt really work for me.

    Butchers dont deal with whole animals, they deal with parts of animal carcasses that have already been somewhat processed.

    This initial processing happens in an abbotoir, which is where the animal is killed, skinned, and relieved of most of its internal organs. It is also often split in to more manageable sizes in an abbotoir.

    It is at this point that a butchers work comes in.

    There is no easy to recognize name for a profession that works in an abbotoir. However, since a part of an abbotoir workers job is to skin an animal, it should be reasonable to assume that if a game has skinner as a profession, that job will deal with all aspects of an abbotoir workers role, not just that one aspect.

    As such, if you come across a dead dragon (due, perhaps, to having just killed it), you would then set your skinner (aka, abbotoir worker) on to it to break it down in to something a butcher can take to their butchers block, and then process further down.
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    @Sapiverenus @Noaani Yea, the skinning/field dressing would be the gathering part for meat. Makes more sense to deliver the kill to a butcher for processing. I have actually worked as a butcher and was always breaking down hunters kills for them. Could go hand in hand with farming or animal husbandry by butchering livestock.
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