Summoner: The Vampire

To Summon a person. . . a thing. . . is simply to separate it from its world.

To summon is Extraction

It is to separate a thing from its place.
A Severance. A Sunder.

To separate a person of their heart you simply open their heart to the void and. . . sclup!

Basically Summoner should be tied to the Void and whatever results from that such as the Drain motif.

They would have some good Control, unique Shield from Summoned Entities, good Damage, maybe a little Lifesteal. . . with poor Freedom. . . hence empty lol

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Comments

George_Black

Bro until you have 40mil to throw away and make your own universe I'd advise you to check that tone and replace all those "should" with something else.

Sapiverenus

should

Hatham

No.

Malcador_Sigillite

Another bad system suggestion by Sapiverenus

Hinotori

just when i think the ideas can't get anymore hotdog water... I end up surprised.

Ace1234

Just because some of the ideas are questionable doesn't mean you guys should be so dismissive of every post he makes. Address the idea and not the person. You all have some bad ideas too sometimes, its no reason to be rude. Yall were mad about him being rude now you are holding a grudge and just continuously doing that same thing. Just saying "no" is rude and shows that you can't really support your own opinion, which kind of invalidates it at that point.

CptBrownBeard

Ace1234 wrote: »

Just because some of the ideas are questionable doesn't mean you guys should be so dismissive of every post he makes. Address the idea and not the person. You all have some bad ideas too sometimes, its no reason to be rude. Yall were mad about him being rude now you are holding a grudge and just continuously doing that same thing. Just saying "no" is rude and shows that you can't really support your own opinion, which kind of invalidates it at that point.

People typically don't take kind to being insulted when they try to carry a conversation, as some had to deal with in prior Sap threads. Hence the unwillingness to put up with his/her/its child-like tendencies. Surprise, when you push people away you end up alone.

It's been quite clear that Sap has not read up on anything within the designed systems already in place, and instead wishes to throw ideas around that just won't fit into Intrepid's design goals for the game, as they currently stand. When others have tried to explain this, Sap goes straight to "no, I know better than you." Albeit in a more derogatory form.

I think the self-policing on the forum has been rather tame considering they've been pointed to the resources they need to understand what Ashes is about.

Ace1234

@CptBrownBeard
I get all that, im just saying a forum is for ideas, it doesn't neccessarily have to fit within the current mold of design. Especially with how willing they are to redesign systems and a focus on testing and feedback. That is why its not right to be dismissive even if its something that you don't see as a "fit" for the type of game it is, since the type of game can always change, if people actually discuss and present ideas that could be beneficial. This being said I can understand the unwillingness to engage due to his responses- I am just saying that to carry that attitude to every thread he posts is more of holding a grudge than attempting to have a discussion.

CptBrownBeard

I agree with you for the most part. My biggest concern is something like the following:

Ace1234 wrote: »

Especially with how willing they are to redesign systems and a focus on testing and feedback.

There's two important words missing that a lot of newcomers tend to forget, and that I consider to be the crux of the problem.

"Within reason."

There's a point as to why IS always mentions their Pillars of Design. Some things they will not change or budge on, period. They can't if they want their vision to come to fruition this decade. However, while their base design pillars will not change, they can make adjustments to the secondary systems branching out from the bases (much like with the more recent open waters changes). I think as long as suggestions keep that in mind, as well as what's feasible within the engine, ideas are more than welcome. Some just get carried away and ask for more than what's desired by IS or currently possible and then respond harshly when their ideas are shot down by those who already know the deal. It's inevitable.

To get back on topic, let's take Sap's idea here. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of a "vampire-esque" summon (its possibility within the lore notwithstanding). But their particular suggestion would change the base function of the summoner, locking it in to a specific motif. Instead, one of the secondary archetypes could potentially provide a summon akin to what Sap wants while still maintaining the neutral summoner base that allows every other summoner player to branch how they would prefer.

TL;DR Ideas good, understanding Intrepid's general design plans and giving feedback around that better.

Oh and...Arrrr.

Sapiverenus

CptBrownBeard wrote: »

Ace1234 wrote: »

Just because some of the ideas are questionable doesn't mean you guys should be so dismissive of every post he makes. Address the idea and not the person. You all have some bad ideas too sometimes, its no reason to be rude. Yall were mad about him being rude now you are holding a grudge and just continuously doing that same thing. Just saying "no" is rude and shows that you can't really support your own opinion, which kind of invalidates it at that point.

People typically don't take kind to being insulted when they try to carry a conversation, as some had to deal with in prior Sap threads. Hence the unwillingness to put up with his/her/its child-like tendencies. Surprise, when you push people away you end up alone.

It's been quite clear that Sap has not read up on anything within the designed systems already in place, and instead wishes to throw ideas around that just won't fit into Intrepid's design goals for the game, as they currently stand. When others have tried to explain this, Sap goes straight to "no, I know better than you." Albeit in a more derogatory form.

I think the self-policing on the forum has been rather tame considering they've been pointed to the resources they need to understand what Ashes is about.

Nothing is set in stone and many people have been rude; but people assume that because they're 'right' they can be. I've looked into the design goals and watched the updates plenty.
I go straight into the meat of what people say or they simply aren't saying anything because they're 'right' and so they're dismissive and deflective; they refuse to engage & elaborate further when I probe.

People have not been that constructive nor productive lol.

They're ideas and given how long Intrepid are taking and how many design meetings they have it's clear they are trying to do more than whatever simplistique conception of "design goals" you have. Designing is a process and desicisions can change; when I address people's "percieved contradictions" with the design goals I elaborate further yet others do not most of the time.
Every discussion turns into people saying something that doesn't contradict with what I've said yet they assume it does without elaborating further; and I am generally insulted and dismissed as an idiot.

You guys all tend to fixate on one thing I say in a post in exclusion to everything else. . . no realy content to what yall say except your assumption that the game is going to be something you're familiar with.

"Game isn't that expansive so it's bad for it. Not happening. Don't care to say why I don't like the idea either it's just bad. Not in this game. Don't want it here."

Edit: changed a couple 'yous' to 'they'

Sapiverenus

CptBrownBeard wrote: »

I agree with you for the most part. My biggest concern is something like the following:

Ace1234 wrote: »

Especially with how willing they are to redesign systems and a focus on testing and feedback.

There's two important words missing that a lot of newcomers tend to forget, and that I consider to be the crux of the problem.

"Within reason."

There's a point as to why IS always mentions their Pillars of Design. Some things they will not change or budge on, period. They can't if they want their vision to come to fruition this decade. However, while their base design pillars will not change, they can make adjustments to the secondary systems branching out from the bases (much like with the more recent open waters changes). I think as long as suggestions keep that in mind, as well as what's feasible within the engine, ideas are more than welcome. Some just get carried away and ask for more than what's desired by IS or currently possible and then respond harshly when their ideas are shot down by those who already know the deal. It's inevitable.

To get back on topic, let's take Sap's idea here. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of a "vampire-esque" summon (its possibility within the lore notwithstanding). But their particular suggestion would change the base function of the summoner, locking it in to a specific motif. Instead, one of the secondary archetypes could potentially provide a summon akin to what Sap wants while still maintaining the neutral summoner base that allows every other summoner player to branch how they would prefer.

TL;DR Ideas good, understanding Intrepid's general design plans and giving feedback around that better.

Oh and...Arrrr.

You don't use much reason you use contractions. Being contractive isn't "Reason".
Pillars of Design are guides for Expansion lol not just to help create Dead-Ends.

Vampire I think fits best with Summoner sub-Tank. Yall act like I'm cutting off the face of the game every time I suggest something rather than seeing it as a niche that can exist.
It's just a theme that fits.
Summoning physically involves extraction and such. It's a basic observation.

Yall just push Contractions rather than add anything like negative pessimistic entitled elitists. All contraction.

There are 64 x 4 specs. 64 x 4 are planned. If ideas aren't being pushed to find a niche it will all be the same thing x8 x4.

I keep trying to tell you about the bigger picture (ironic) but none of you engage with that AT ALL. For what? For nothing. It's like talking to bots. 0 concern complete shutdown copium/ hopium with no awareness of how you can contribute to the creation of unique Sub-Archetypes or anything at all.

It's not constructive or productive what people are doing in response to ideas.
Contribute something. Ignorant shutdowns aren't contribution; thinking of a niche for something is contribution.

Sapiverenus

I'm curious as to what you guys have lead in your life; if anything; and whether that has biased you into a narrow perspective that excludes room for 90% of growth or evolution.

EDIT: I assume people will fixate on this so understand that a Project Lead of construction projects could bias them to be more conservative with 'direction'; relying on what has worked and not to do something new and risky.

Sharif has spent many years designing. Hence, he wants a game that has a lot more "design" than other games.

It is clear to a "reasonable" person that the more you design, the more you want to add and design.

Like a weight lifter that pushes more weight or more reps the more they do.

Given this Reason or 'wisdom', we can clearly conclude that a lack of Designing will not allow anyone to Design more or better.

Hence, if someone has an idea or premise or mechanic or vision [whatever the 'Seed' is] and you want to be good at Designing, you will see what you can do with said idea.

Similar to someone wanting to be good at lifting weights, if you don't Design you will never be good at it.

Would any of you like to now 'Design'?

Extending the analogue: If you are fixated on lifting smaller weights for the same amount of reps, always doing less rather than pushing for growth, you will not Grow.

Would any of you like to now 'Grow'?

This is "Within Reason".

Hinotori

Alot of your ideas would require change to key design pillars of the game. Some shifting the game from a pvx environment to an open world pvp environment for example. Or moving completed player items from being safe to having player items become vulnerable to theft and needing to be well hidden.

Others would require an entire rethink in the design of the game to cater to enhanced levels of realistic mechanics.

Many of which don't make the game fun but would render it closer to a chore.

Sapiverenus

Natasha wrote: »

Alot of your ideas would require change to key design pillars of the game. Some shifting the game from a pvx environment to an open world pvp environment for example. Or moving completed player items from being safe to having player items become vulnerable to theft and needing to be well hidden.

Others would require an entire rethink in the design of the game to cater to enhanced levels of realistic mechanics.

Many of which don't make the game fun but would render it closer to a chore.

You say design pillars but there is no discussion of these design pillars, just reciting some quote that has some relevance but doesn't contradict the idea.
There is just a lack of engagement; nothing to do with "Design Pillars".

The PvX is "PvP and PvE is intertwined" which is PvP to most people.
Safe/Risk player items is a design choice and can be discussed.

These aren't design pillars they are specific decision that can be discussed.

Rethinking is part of design and this is a forum for thinking and discussing.

MMOS. . .. are the most chore genre around. I hate chores. I want the game to be fun. Excitement is fun.
I want level 10 to be 1/3 or something of level 100. Not 1/30. How would that increase the chore of playing?
Every MMO player says crap like "It gets better trust me. It gets good at level 60/80/100/120/255/ 999" and that is why most people don't like MMOs.
I want every bit of chore removed from the game.

So why do you and others keep repeating this?

Sapiverenus

Alright I changed some classes; didn't manage to get past Summoner, Tank or Fighter but let me know what yall think.

UPDATE 9/23:

Sapiverenus

Summoner sub-Fighter: Like Bane from Dota 2, with hands and nightmares.
I can see a longer cooldown spell opening 2 portals and 2 large arms coming out of it and fighting from that location. Otherwise a CC and 'Pain' based kit. Temporary damage, impeding action through 'pain', and something like Nightmare that can move to allies (like Mindless Fighting!).

Summoner sub-Tank: Not sure but I'm thinking tumor like growths on the Summoner that spurt stuff on enemies (and reduce damage to summoner but not better than any Tank). Can summon tumors. Explode, grow out of enemy, whatever. Parasites in the Tumors. Tumors on Summoner like a shield that gets removed first then explodes when it reaches 0 health. Can be activated prematurely with something like .35s cast animation. Tumors full of acid. Tumors full of tumors.

Summoner sub-Rogue: Some vampire themes, other rogue and shadow. Drain blood in spurts from a distance (not channel, low cooldown, has an ok medium speed animation, 'PULLS' the blood out of them, and can be done while moving).
"Shadow Pool" like from Vladimir in League of Legends seems great; like a temporary portal to someplace that leaves behind a 'shadow'.Can move and the 'pool of shadow' moves with them. higher MS.
Can 'smoke' an area. Dark and wispy. For large effect requires build-up.
Small strange and curious humanoids start to materialize from this and they will start gnawing and soul-sucking.

Summoner sub-Ranger: Haunt. Curse. Have a place be turned haunted with random unblockable attacks by ghosts (not high attack rate at all, decent damage). Send a ghost after someone for more sustained damage. Curse someone to be Haunted long-term or suffer some curse-like issues like failing spells, missing attacks, et cetera.

Can do some simple waypoint stuff as well with spectres.

Can summon insects and small animals, to for example grant them 'awareness' of their surroundings or some area. Like having insects and bats as your senses.

Summoner sub-Mage: I can see this one being a strange and dark demented amalgamation of elements that is a slow-building mass that is like a devouring goo, chunks of earth, acid. . . mana gone bad, natural elements gone awry.

Slow building and is not effective in-battle; the mass must be 'added to' all the time and is something that takes minutes to get to a decent level. Does friendly damage. Becomes the size of an elephant. Starts at soccer ball size.

Soccer ball demented goop is useful I guess. Throw them at people. Have them merge with the main mass.

OR

I imagined
"evil" sorts of elementals that like to devour;
such as a black goop that starts out weak in a fight but you can keep adding to to make bigger and do more damage, durability damage, slow, immobilize, et cetera (slow-build up and is like a deadly slug/ slime).
Can kick it like a soccer ball when it's at its initial stage.

Thematic elementals that are basically monsterous and 'hungry'. Add to them during a fight to expand their moveset and effectiveness.

Fire would be a path that snakes around and does damage aross the ground, leaving a trail. Mobile. Can be added to or something to build up its damage and moveset.

Air could be simply 'disruptive' and at times causing players to roll around. Eventually damage comes into play such as occassional lightning but not a damage focus.

Earth could be like an area of earth cracking and grabbing things in the area, then building up around them, some sort of more static zone control.

Summoner sub-Summoner: Blackhole. Devouring things.
Execute using the creature from sub-Fighter where a third hole opens and the 2 arms put a 5% player/ NPC into its gnashing mouth (set of well-aligned molars. front teeth are molars. no fangs).
Can summon the entire creature except torso and head are obfuscated by a spherical black 'void'/ blackhole sort of thing; long limbs short torso large wide head and mouth creature though; can't see face just mouth and eyes when they're being used.
Can teleport enemies and allies around. Can teleport as a group.
Can summon players from long-distance.

can channel to basically start channeling space in an area, denying that area or hurting those in the area. More damage in the center. Then turns into a summon of aforementioned strange giant humanoid.

Can long-summon some book's worth of unique summons.

Another idea;
Having Hostile teleports that teleport an area (ally or foe) that:
looks like being sucked into a dark hole in the ground then pop up out of the ground elsewhere,
but with the additional company of some sort of wretched underworld imps grappled onto everyone attacking enemies and underimps on the backs of Friendlies then jumping onto Enemies. Generally being a nuisance.

Summoner sub-Cleric: Lich works. Requires corpse.

Summoner sub-Bard: Enchanting?

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