Cover/Line of Sight's impact on ranged combat and cast times

TheWolfofGar

Question for everyone, how do you think Line of Sight/taking cover should impact skills with cast times in the following scenarios,

If LoS is broken mid cast?
What in your opinion constitutes a LoS break?
Should casts having "Homing" / object penetration
- eg if you launch a spell and the player dives behind a tree while the effect is travelling, should you be hit or should the tree?
Should casters be able to Hold/Pre charge a spell after waiting the cast time?
If a player leaves the effective range after the skill is queued up.

lmk your thoughts

TheWolfofGar

My answers:
LoS broken mid cast
I'm currently unsure, I feel like fighting in a forest would become damn near impossible depending on cast time for mages if LoS broke concentration as players with instants could just run around trees preventing you from finishing any decent spell.
That said I do also think its frustrating when you dodge behind a wall and still are able to be hit, especially when ping gets involved.

so I'd like to see/experiment with how this feels in A2 depending on how Intrepid decides to go.

What constitutes a LoS break?
Imo a true LoS break is one where you are fully blocked by a structure for a relatively significant period of time
eg. this elephant hasn't broken LoS

additionally I don't think running around a tree and popping out on the other side constitutes a LoS break, as it would make sense for a competent person to track your movement and anticipate you coming out the other side, and being able to cast their ability. So I think hiding and waiting would be needed to break LoS.

Should casts having "Homing" / object penetration

I do think most spells and range abilities should have a base level of homing (especially given the tab targeting system ( unless ground effects)) eg if you cast fireball it shouldn't be a simple side step to dodge but it should still be possible within the dodge system intrepid is playing with. i.e. if you do nothing you should get hit.
For penetration I would need to see case by case some aoes for example should have a relative chance to hit around or behind certain obstacles but until we see the toolkit I can't say for certain how I'd feel but I tend to lean towards projectiles getting stopped/going off at the first physical object they encounter .

Should casters be able to Hold/Pre charge a spell after waiting the cast time?

I think this could be a useful ability but I lean towards it requiring the caster to be rooted while channeling, eg if fireball has a 2 second cast time you can hold down the button and at 2 seconds it wont go off until you let go, this could work to balance line of sight breakers, they hid behind a tree you can decide to cancel your cast and reposition or wait for them to peak out and release for an opening instant cast, this would also give mages the ability to "open" simultaneously by queing up their big spells and everyone releasing at the same time for a big burst of damage.

If a player leaves the effective range after the skill is queued up.

if a player leaves the effective range, I think it should still hit in most circumstances, I'd probably like to see skills have two separate range values, a Castable/que range and an effective range.
eg. you can queue the cast for fireball against anyone within 30m but it will hit anyone up to 40m away if they fail their dodge. That way ranged instant casts cannot dance around 30m back and forth in/out of range, they would need to run over 10m in the cast time which in most cases shouldn't be possible. Combined with cast holding I think that would give a nice dynamic to cast-time combat while maintaining a good balance.

Noaani

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

lmk your thoughts

My thoughts are similar to yours above - that these things should be a factor of the ability, more so than anything else.

Some mage spells, for example, may have a homing component akin to D&D's Magic Missile.

On the other hand, a bow skill may allow the user to 'cast' the skill, and hold it for a period of time.

To me, this is something that should be explained on the ability description/tooltip, and should be a factor in ability balance (a homing ability is slightly better than an ability that does not home at all).

CROW3

I’m ok with trees breaking LoS and making it significantly more difficult to hit a target with ranged attacks. That would provide a tactical advantage to forests - especially when trying to evade a ranged-heavy force.

I’m hesitant to say ‘interrupt’ ranged attacks since we still have to understand how bow attacks will work. I don’t want ranged attacks to be tab-target long cast time combat.

Ace1234

I think that as long as the abilities aren't hitscan, meaning the projectiles actually are projectiles that have mass and travel time, then there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to use cover to block the incoming projectiles, providing that the projectile actually hits the cover in an attempt to chase you down.

Ludullu

Imo if your character loses LoS by the end of the cast/attack - the dmg/effect should not go through. And this should apply not only to ranged stuff but to melee too. With the casting/effective range thing working as you described.

This was how it worked in L2 and I liked it that way

TheWolfofGar

CROW3 wrote: »

I’m ok with trees breaking LoS and making it significantly more difficult to hit a target with ranged attacks. That would provide a tactical advantage to forests - especially when trying to evade a ranged-heavy force.

I’m hesitant to say ‘interrupt’ ranged attacks since we still have to understand how bow attacks will work. I don’t want ranged attacks to be tab-target long cast time combat.

Agreed I think most bow attacks ought to be instant outside a few skills perhaps a "heavy draw" or "charged shot" style move, but I think you'd agree that we don't want bows to be treated like a bow mage where everything has a cast time, Obviously the skills that do ought to be affected by LoS, I do agree that large trees ought to break los, however I don't think the skill should cancel it's cast imagine a 2-3 second cast,

t0 - queue spell
t1 - target moves behind tree
t2 - target appears on other side of tree
t3 - spell casts and hits target

whereas

t0 - queue spell
t1 - target moves behind tree
t2 - target stays out of view
t3 - spell/ability fails to cast
(or you can hold charged spells/abilities assuming such a thing is implemented then at tx - spell is released upon target reappearing)

Warth

CROW3 wrote: »

I’m ok with trees breaking LoS and making it significantly more difficult to hit a target with ranged attacks. That would provide a tactical advantage to forests - especially when trying to evade a ranged-heavy force.

I’m hesitant to say ‘interrupt’ ranged attacks since we still have to understand how bow attacks will work. I don’t want ranged attacks to be tab-target long cast time combat.

Agreed with the strategic part.

Ranged oftentimes have strategic advantages (height differences, water inbetween...) Giving them strategic disadvantages for a change would be a good thing

Personally, I'd very much like Bione specific effects on the character as well. Like Snowy areas reducing movement speed, deserts increasing CDs due to exhaustions. Swamps reducibg healing due to infection...

Plandemonium

The idea is cool but I don't think it's realistic to implement, because players will chase each other in circles around the tree like little children, which will totally disrupt the imersion of the game.

Ludullu

heebi wrote: »

The idea is cool but I don't think it's realistic to implement, because players will chase each other in circles around the tree like little children, which will totally disrupt the imersion of the game.

And my immersion would be broken if I could shoot a dude through a huge fucking tree. That ain't how that works irl.

Strevi

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

Question for everyone, how do you think Line of Sight/taking cover should impact skills with cast times in the following scenarios,

If LoS is broken mid cast?
What in your opinion constitutes a LoS break?
Should casts having "Homing" / object penetration
- eg if you launch a spell and the player dives behind a tree while the effect is travelling, should you be hit or should the tree?
Should casters be able to Hold/Pre charge a spell after waiting the cast time?
If a player leaves the effective range after the skill is queued up.

lmk your thoughts

In my oppinion, if you can select the player
- behind a tree it should remain selected
- entering into tall grass it should remove selection after a few seconds
- behind the edge of a wall it should remove the selection in a few seconds, maybe faster than in tall grass
- under water, same behavior like in tall grass

If the bow is loaded targeting should switch to action combat mode automatically to be able to hit the player through the grass or if he becomes visible.for a moment.
Arrow damage under water should be reduced, depending on depth.
Damage in tall grass should be reduced just a little.

TheWolfofGar

Warth wrote: »

Personally, I'd very much like Bione specific effects on the character as well. Like Snowy areas reducing movement speed, deserts increasing CDs due to exhaustions. Swamps reducing healing due to infection...

Biome specific effects would actually be pretty sweet, however if implemented I'd like to see certain armour sets which combat these detrimental effects and others which make it worse, ie fighting in a tincan in the desert vs fighting in loose fabric,

Also agreed there does need to be some strategic counter to ranged troops, to give melee the chance to close the distance.

CROW3

heebi wrote: »

The idea is cool but I don't think it's realistic to implement, because players will chase each other in circles around the tree like little children, which will totally disrupt the imersion of the game.

Then find other tools in your kit to kill your target, or disengage. Changing trees to transparent objects isn't the answer.

TheWolfofGar

Strevi wrote: »

In my oppinion, if you can select the player
- behind a tree it should remain selected
- entering into tall grass it should remove selection after a few seconds
- behind the edge of a wall it should remove the selection in a few seconds, maybe faster than in tall grass
- under water, same behavior like in tall grass

If the bow is loaded targeting should switch to action combat mode automatically to be able to hit the player through the grass or if he becomes visible for a moment.
Arrow damage under water should be reduced, depending on depth.
Damage in tall grass should be reduced just a little.

yeah this was one of those things I was considering with object penetration, things that break LoS but shouldn't block (100% of) damage, like foliage or tall grass, you should be able to shoot someone in non solid cover as a bush wont protect you from an arrow, though perhaps you get a dodge/evasion buff.

perhaps there could be different types of cover

LoS Only eg: Foliage

LoS + weak projectile cover eg: fences/ thin cover, there is a non-zero chance of penetration for standard attacks and AoE always hits through, strong attacks like "Charged shot" have a high chance of penetration.

LoS + AoE cover eg. Stone, castle wall, large trees, there is protection from all attack except siege equipment.

Switching to action combat could be a really nice solution depending on how it interfaces as that would allow you to skillfully track them and perhaps anticipate them coming out the other side of a tree so pre-firing there to catch them.

DeviLzFury_Gaming

In my oppinion, if you can select the player
- behind a tree it should remain selected
- entering into tall grass it should remove selection after a few seconds
- behind the edge of a wall it should remove the selection in a few seconds, maybe faster than in tall grass
- under water, same behavior like in tall grass

If the bow is loaded targeting should switch to action combat mode automatically to be able to hit the player through the grass or if he becomes visible.for a moment.
Arrow damage under water should be reduced, depending on depth.
Damage in tall grass should be reduced just a little.[/quote]

I think this is the only way this might work if implemented in the game. Unless you remove it completely, or when LoS is broken by anything you have a chance of loosing lock. Anything else seems like it be to clunky or hit and miss imo.

With a game that's tab and action combat oriented its hard to tell how or what should be done on this topic as we need to see what its like now 1st to see if this is even needed.

Sapiverenus

good topic

Sathrago

NiKr wrote: »

heebi wrote: »

The idea is cool but I don't think it's realistic to implement, because players will chase each other in circles around the tree like little children, which will totally disrupt the imersion of the game.

And my immersion would be broken if I could shoot a dude through a huge fucking tree. That ain't how that works irl.

wow called they want their mechanic back.

Ludullu

Sathrago wrote: »

wow called they want their mechanic back.

And this is one of the reasons why I disliked its combat even after barely have played it.

Sathrago

NiKr wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

wow called they want their mechanic back.

And this is one of the reasons why I disliked its combat even after barely have played it.

well, to be fair it did have line of sight mechanics in arenas, but they were just very lazy when it came to making the world and even some of their bgs fully LoS enabled. When there was LoS it worked quite well, almost too well in the case of arena because if you wanted to avoid damage you would run to one of the pillars and ride it like a top dollar stripper.

TheWolfofGar

Sathrago wrote: »

When there was LoS it worked quite well, almost too well in the case of arena because if you wanted to avoid damage you would run to one of the pillars and ride it like a top dollar stripper.

Yeah this is why I think there ought to be a delay between LoS breaking, you pop out the other side right away cast should continue. Instantly losing for any slight los break is too strong. The tuning is where we'll need to experiment.