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Material Scarcity for Repairs.

SathragoSathrago Member
edited September 2022 in General Discussion
So naturally we don't know the full details on the material/gathering/crafting process, but I foresee a potential issue that would cause problems for repairs and crafting in general. If materials and certain items are region based exclusives, this will really impact the crafts and repairs for people who move out of their native region. An example of this would be you finally make the rare craft sword in the desert node, and travel away from it to do what you want. One day your sword is low on durability, but in order to repair it you will either have to hope that the items have been shipped to this region or travel all the way back to that desert region for those specific materials.

I can see this causing a major time sink where most games just let you walk up to any town and repair the items so you can go on your way. If we just take the fact that Bosses will be dropping high quality resources as well, If the items are unique to those bosses it causes the same situation.

Now I understand that this adds movement for both players and the economy, granting merchants an avenue to use the caravan system for greater profits. My question is this, is it worth the extremely tedious increase in time and effort to repair items? Assuming that there are material "exclusives" for different regions.

To be clear, I don't have a problem either way. It was just a question that popped up for me while reading another thread.
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    This was one of the reasons why I made a post related to the crafting system (the post itself was about OE). I'd personally prefer a "time-based" decay system rather than a "through use" one. If you craft a sword and see "this item will completely decay in 60h of equipped time" and you know that one instance of repairs restores, say, 20% of the decay bar and costs a particular amount of resources - you can plan out your gameplay around that.

    Intrepid wants us to be super loyal to our nodes so, in theory, you should spend most of your time within or at least around it. So if your weapon used mats from your node - you'll be fine. And if you used items from a far away node, you might want to contract a merchant to get you those items in a timely matter and agree upon the fee for doing so. This way you have your repair mats and the merchant gets an assured income.

    And the "equipped time" thing would also allow you to only use your superior weapon in special situations, while you could be using a mid-tier weapon for everything else. This kind of design would also level out the pvp playing field a bit, cause not all players would be willing to use their best weapon in pvp because the risk of speeding up the decay might not be warranted, while people with "regular" weapons would be closer in power to the "elites" with the cool but unusable toys.

    P.S. I can definitely see how this kind of system could be seen as tedious to a lot of people, so it might be far from the perfect solution. But one of the later L2 updates had super cheap timed weapons that allowed poor people to go up a gear tier w/o going completely bankrupt (if they even had the money) and people used those weapons in exactly the manner I described. It didn't really feel tedious there, which is why I suggested this in my original thread.
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    NiKr wrote: »
    This was one of the reasons why I made a post related to the crafting system (the post itself was about OE). I'd personally prefer a "time-based" decay system rather than a "through use" one. If you craft a sword and see "this item will completely decay in 60h of equipped time" and you know that one instance of repairs restores, say, 20% of the decay bar and costs a particular amount of resources - you can plan out your gameplay around that.

    Intrepid wants us to be super loyal to our nodes so, in theory, you should spend most of your time within or at least around it. So if your weapon used mats from your node - you'll be fine. And if you used items from a far away node, you might want to contract a merchant to get you those items in a timely matter and agree upon the fee for doing so. This way you have your repair mats and the merchant gets an assured income.

    And the "equipped time" thing would also allow you to only use your superior weapon in special situations, while you could be using a mid-tier weapon for everything else. This kind of design would also level out the pvp playing field a bit, cause not all players would be willing to use their best weapon in pvp because the risk of speeding up the decay might not be warranted, while people with "regular" weapons would be closer in power to the "elites" with the cool but unusable toys.

    P.S. I can definitely see how this kind of system could be seen as tedious to a lot of people, so it might be far from the perfect solution. But one of the later L2 updates had super cheap timed weapons that allowed poor people to go up a gear tier w/o going completely bankrupt (if they even had the money) and people used those weapons in exactly the manner I described. It didn't really feel tedious there, which is why I suggested this in my original thread.

    The "time-based" system you talk about could be reasonable if its applied to in-combat time rather than just at all times. I wouldn't want my fishing pole rotting away just because I have it equipped. This reminds me that they actually did that in Archeage but worse, once you got a pole you had to "unpack" it. Once open you had x amount of hours before it broke itself. Regardless of if you were online or not, using it or not.
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    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I know this is practically a dismissive answer to this but...

    Why wouldn't you just buy a new 'locally sourced' sword?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    Sathrago wrote: »
    The "time-based" system you talk about could be reasonable if its applied to in-combat time rather than just at all times. I wouldn't want my fishing pole rotting away just because I have it equipped. This reminds me that they actually did that in Archeage but worse, once you got a pole you had to "unpack" it. Once open you had x amount of hours before it broke itself. Regardless of if you were online or not, using it or not.
    Yeah, that'd be the micromanagement of you properly utilizing your items. You'd usually either run with nothing in your hands or a weaker but easier to repair weapon (well, in L2 we did). And once you saw that you might need your better gear - you equip it. This would also require constant awareness from players, which is a good thing to have in an owpvp game.

    At its core, this is the same as having your gear decay "on use", but it's way easier to track than some arbitrary equation of "t3 decays by 0.1% from each hit against t3, but by 0.3% when hitting t4". And then you have the mob variety and the whole mess of how exactly does your gear decay in pve use across that variety. Imo that's just an overcomplication of the system, though we have obviously not seen what Intrepid has planned currently so they might've resolved that issue already.
    Azherae wrote: »
    Why wouldn't you just buy a new 'locally sourced' sword?
    Stats, looks, personal attachment, costs, availability. Those are the first reasons that come to mind.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Why wouldn't you just buy a new 'locally sourced' sword?
    Stats, looks, personal attachment, costs, availability. Those are the first reasons that come to mind.

    I mean to use temporarily.

    It's one of those situations where I can't find the downside that isn't a natural gameplay challenge. If you 'chose to move away from the node where you got your awesome sword', in terms of 'gameplay challenge and story', wouldn't it make 'more sense' for you to have to have the experience of dealing with that?

    There are many situations where I wouldn't ask this of a player. But 'spending money and interacting with the local economy of the new node' and 'not losing the current sword' seem more like an inconvenience than anything else, and MMOs need 'inconveniences' sometimes, I think. This one seems precisely as though it would lead to standard gameplay/a good experience or loop, not 'man this sucks the game has locked me out of content because I have no sword'.

    Another 'catalyst for change', if you will.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    Azherae wrote: »
    I mean to use temporarily.
    It's one of those situations where I can't find the downside that isn't a natural gameplay challenge. If you 'chose to move away from the node where you got your awesome sword', in terms of 'gameplay challenge and story', wouldn't it make 'more sense' for you to have to have the experience of dealing with that?

    There are many situations where I wouldn't ask this of a player. But 'spending money and interacting with the local economy of the new node' and 'not losing the current sword' seem more like an inconvenience than anything else, and MMOs need 'inconveniences' sometimes, I think. This one seems precisely as though it would lead to standard gameplay/a good experience or loop, not 'man this sucks the game has locked me out of content because I have no sword'.
    Another 'catalyst for change', if you will.
    Ah, in that way - yeah, it's barely even an issue. And it's the "mid-tier" gear I was talking about in my comment here. Your mid-tier stuff would still break down as it should, but replacing it with another mid-tier local thing would be super easy, all while you keep your cool sword for the special occasions that might arise.
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    I'm really in the boat for SWG and UO gear decay. Permanent destruction.

    I know not many people like it these days, but I've preferred them.

    Especially SWG with the material parameters being random. While having prototypes and blueprint that were unique and limited crafts.
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    I kind of like the idea of the node having impact on ability to repair gear. Means if a player with a major weapon who wants to move will likely have to trade it to someone at that node, keeping the gear localized to it. Also could keep mega guilds from monopolizing on several raids across the map due to having to maintain the gear they obtain from them but likely having the entire guild residing in 1 main node.
    GJjUGHx.gif
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    SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    I don't think most things should even be repairable to be honest.
    Just scrap it to the Smelter.

    Given Intrepid will be using lower tier items to make higher tier ones it makes perfect sense that they just get scrapped rather than repaired.
    Enchanted items are always good for enchant reagents to reuse or whatever the hell.

    This timer stuff is a bit crazy though.

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    Sathrago wrote: »
    So naturally we don't know the full details on the material/gathering/crafting process, but I foresee a potential issue that would cause problems for repairs and crafting in general. If materials and certain items are region based exclusives, this will really impact the crafts and repairs for people who move out of their native region. An example of this would be you finally make the rare craft sword in the desert node, and travel away from it to do what you want. One day your sword is low on durability, but in order to repair it you will either have to hope that the items have been shipped to this region or travel all the way back to that desert region for those specific materials.

    I can see this causing a major time sink where most games just let you walk up to any town and repair the items so you can go on your way. If we just take the fact that Bosses will be dropping high quality resources as well, If the items are unique to those bosses it causes the same situation.

    Now I understand that this adds movement for both players and the economy, granting merchants an avenue to use the caravan system for greater profits. My question is this, is it worth the extremely tedious increase in time and effort to repair items? Assuming that there are material "exclusives" for different regions.

    To be clear, I don't have a problem either way. It was just a question that popped up for me while reading another thread.

    I think players will have many swords and and armor. And mounts.
    Not all in good shape.

    The problem will be that artisans will just repair them than producing new ones.

    There is not enough item sink in the game.
    Swords shoud break completely and mounts should die, if not repaired.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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    Repair kits should be craftable by the relevant crafting profession. Should they be super hard and resource intensive to craft? I don't really think so, except maybe for the really high end ones.

    Each time an item is repaired the maximum durability should be lowered. Players could carry them around for emergency repairs. Repairing inside a node or a crafters freehold/shop should give better results.
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    drclawx wrote: »
    Repair kits should be craftable by the relevant crafting profession. Should they be super hard and resource intensive to craft? I don't really think so, except maybe for the really high end ones.

    Each time an item is repaired the maximum durability should be lowered. Players could carry them around for emergency repairs. Repairing inside a node or a crafters freehold/shop should give better results.

    I like this, as an emergency repair kit.
    The master artisan should be able to do a better repair.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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    I think that equiment and stuffs repairable must be by categories, because in this way nomather what do you deside later or soon in your node or faction (Idk), you'll able to travel or change node and always can repair your stuffs, cuz have the same category of others in this node and civilization.

    Well...just my opion
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    I just don't want to be a repair bot, I make kits you repair your own stuff...
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    To be clear there is almost no chance there will be repair kits. The repairs will require an artisan player to do the work and it requires the crafting materials used in originally crafting the item to make the repair.
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    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
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    MrPocketsMrPockets Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Strevi wrote: »
    The problem will be that artisans will just repair them than producing new ones.

    There is not enough item sink in the game.
    Swords shoud break completely and mounts should die, if not repaired.

    I also have concerns over not enough item sinks. The game is set up to support full time artisan players, but is it a fun gameplay loop/fantasy for most of their work to be repairs?

    My opinion is no. Personally, I'd like to take orders for full items most of the time, and maybe scatter a few repairs here and there.

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    I just don't want a system where I have to click on items for people or get 100 tells a day about repairing stuff.

    Hi can you click this item for me.
    - Sure it will cost 500g
    WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT COST MONEY can you do it for free
    10 mins of back and forth.
    OMG you broke my item

    Crafting repair kits keep crafters in the loop of repairing. Which gives more stuff to craft/sell in my shop. Items should lose total durability every time they are repaired and eventually break or become not worth repairing.

    Better repair kits should require more/higher tier resources to craft.

    Emergency field repairs could be worse than in node repairs. Freeholds/shops could offer the best repair chance.
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    MrPockets wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    The problem will be that artisans will just repair them than producing new ones.

    There is not enough item sink in the game.
    Swords shoud break completely and mounts should die, if not repaired.

    I also have concerns over not enough item sinks. The game is set up to support full time artisan players, but is it a fun gameplay loop/fantasy for most of their work to be repairs?

    My opinion is no. Personally, I'd like to take orders for full items most of the time, and maybe scatter a few repairs here and there.

    So... items should break at 0% durability?
    That is like dying if they don't get resources. Scarce resources would kill all items.

    Scarce resources will also prevent producing new items.
    That means some will fight naked like monks. :smile:

    Or only a limited % of players will have high tier gear. Always the best.

    And players will not fight until resources spawn?
    As soon as high tier materials spawn randomly somewhere, those who still have high tier gear will pillage the node which got them?
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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    MrPocketsMrPockets Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Strevi wrote: »
    MrPockets wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    The problem will be that artisans will just repair them than producing new ones.

    There is not enough item sink in the game.
    Swords shoud break completely and mounts should die, if not repaired.

    I also have concerns over not enough item sinks. The game is set up to support full time artisan players, but is it a fun gameplay loop/fantasy for most of their work to be repairs?

    My opinion is no. Personally, I'd like to take orders for full items most of the time, and maybe scatter a few repairs here and there.

    So... items should break at 0% durability?
    That is like dying if they don't get resources. Scarce resources would kill all items.

    Scarce resources will also prevent producing new items.
    That means some will fight naked like monks. :smile:

    Or only a limited % of players will have high tier gear. Always the best.

    And players will not fight until resources spawn?
    As soon as high tier materials spawn randomly somewhere, those who still have high tier gear will pillage the node which got them?

    I think there are many ways to tackle this problem. I'll write more thoughts I have.

    Assuming the game will go with fairly standard durability mechanics (ie: an item's durability goes down the more you use it, and you eventually need to repair it.)
    drclawx wrote: »
    Each time an item is repaired the maximum durability should be lowered.
    I think this is a good step in the right direction of creating an actual item sink.

    There are also ways to make item sinks that don't interact with the repair system.
    • When a player dies in Open world PvP, items have a chance to "trash" (being deleted)
    • A system that allows crafters to make/sell items to NPCs at competitive prices.
    • upgrading items has a chance for them to break

    There are pros and cons to all of these design choices, I'm just looking forward to testing the dev's ideas and iterating on them. :smile:
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    SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    Cheap wool stuffed 'quilted' shirts might be the most common armor around. Easy to repair I guess.

    Used in real life.

    Wood armor should be a thing too. Of various crafting [quality] levels. And layering available to make it pretty good. Metal on non-splintering flexible Wood on Wool would probably absorb hits better than anything else.

    Making things repairable is a design choice in real life; when built from sections/parts it can get a section replaced much of the time. Weapons generally can't be repaired and need to be reforged entirely; hence SELL THE SCRAP. Every cost of repair can be mitigated when talking about metal since metal can be Smelted. And Leather/Wool is just not that expensive when there's plenty of skinners, tanners, and breeders I guess.
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    MrPockets wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    MrPockets wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    The problem will be that artisans will just repair them than producing new ones.

    There is not enough item sink in the game.
    Swords shoud break completely and mounts should die, if not repaired.

    I also have concerns over not enough item sinks. The game is set up to support full time artisan players, but is it a fun gameplay loop/fantasy for most of their work to be repairs?

    My opinion is no. Personally, I'd like to take orders for full items most of the time, and maybe scatter a few repairs here and there.

    So... items should break at 0% durability?
    That is like dying if they don't get resources. Scarce resources would kill all items.

    Scarce resources will also prevent producing new items.
    That means some will fight naked like monks. :smile:

    Or only a limited % of players will have high tier gear. Always the best.

    And players will not fight until resources spawn?
    As soon as high tier materials spawn randomly somewhere, those who still have high tier gear will pillage the node which got them?

    I think there are many ways to tackle this problem. I'll write more thoughts I have.

    Assuming the game will go with fairly standard durability mechanics (ie: an item's durability goes down the more you use it, and you eventually need to repair it.)
    drclawx wrote: »
    Each time an item is repaired the maximum durability should be lowered.
    I think this is a good step in the right direction of creating an actual item sink.

    There are also ways to make item sinks that don't interact with the repair system.
    • When a player dies in Open world PvP, items have a chance to "trash" (being deleted)
    • A system that allows crafters to make/sell items to NPCs at competitive prices.
    • upgrading items has a chance for them to break

    There are pros and cons to all of these design choices, I'm just looking forward to testing the dev's ideas and iterating on them. :smile:

    I've seen players often saying let's test first. I think ideas should be analyzed well in advance.
    Once Alpha 2 hits, will be harder to change.
    But the game is being planned since +7 years already so things should be clear already.

    Many MMOs choose to give players permanent weapons and mounts, even without durability loss.
    Those however also chose to make many items bound to the character.
    So a player who makes an alt might have to produce or buy them again. And new players too.

    If AoC will allow selling everything, then everything should die.
    I realized these days that if resources are scarce, weapons can lie useless with 0 durability in our storage for a long time, until we win a siege against a rich node.
    Same with mounts:
    Mounts that die a certain number of times within a set period might gain a debuff that requires a different material component to assist with their resurrection.[34]
    Mounts have tier and also rarities.
    I expect the rare mounts to require rare components for resurrection.

    Storage may be unlimited. I doubt it is a technical problem for the server to offer unlimited storage.
    Players can collect many mounts and gear, all with different skins and properties and those might end up with 0 durability in their storage.

    This would be consistent with the wiki so far and no big item sink would be needed.
    When the player would manage to gather enough high tier resources to repair a piece of gear, it could chose which one to "activate".

    Deconstructing items can help crafting new ones so players might be tempted to do that instead of grinding to get more rare resources.
    A similar process could be implemented for mounts too.

    Finally, what Intrepid Studios should do, is to find a nice rewarding repair process, as fun as the production itself.
    But my first choice as artisan is to be smelter, caravan builder and siege weapon builder (which I hope includes traps too). So I might be protected from such issues.
    Those who make food and potions are safe too.

    Only armor and mounts seem to cause much attachment, because are hard to obtain.
    If one could obtain them easily, then playing the game many years lies only on the caravan and node wars system.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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    i would need to see how exactly their resource to repair/craft ratio works out in action but a large majority of the time games have done the "decay" in your gear it just feels bad because you either end up with no one wants to use anything past the basic of basic stuff or the resource requirement is so small it may as well just not have it. Survival games usually have it balanced so it feels nice because you can do everything yourself.

    it can also run into the stuff crafted has a large variety of potential stats and whatnot it will feel super shitty when the one you felt was perfect for you expires (although i think they stated the crafter has full control of this so i dont think this will be an issue)
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