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Leveling Only PvP

ZazarielZazariel Member
edited September 21 in General Discussion
Will the leveling system be compatible with players dedicated to PvP activities?

Hello and welcome on this thread.

Here is a summary of the different answers already given to the question. This will allow you to contribute without having to reread everything :
The direct answer is no! It will not be possible to do only PvP to reach the Max level.
It's a unique world with its own progression system. This will require the players to vary the activities in order to progress his character as well as his Node. This is a PvX game!
Players will still be able to activate the PvP mode at any time in the game, but it will not be a viable method of progression to level up.
PvP during leveling will be a "choice" or an approach for players. In order to determine which group will be able to take advantage of a quest, farm or dungeon area.
At each Soft Cap during leveling, leveling up will require leveling up the Node. This will be good for PvP activities because PvE activities do not allow leveling up anymore.

Small Disclaimer:

As the game is in the Alpha one testing phase, all answers and sayings in this thread may change and are not indicative of the state of the game. Most of the answers are in the form of assumptions or interpretations. Thanks
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Comments

  • NatashaNatasha Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    No, you won't be able to level up doing 100% pvp activities unless you're extremely patient and are happy waiting around for those activities to kick off. (Such as caravans and sieges, castle wars, node wars etc) you could always duel in the ocean I suppose. But that would likely get monotonous

    Most players would get bored. It'd be alot faster leveling through pve and engaging with the pvp that comes from it naturally.


    proud member of the Ironmouse Defence Force.
  • PvP will not be a viable leveling option.
    its not designed to be.
  • I mean, it's done ?! it's already decided by devs ? The game development goes already too far to include pvp in leveling ??
  • Zazariel wrote: »
    I mean, it's done ?! it's already decided by devs ? The game development goes already too far to include pvp in leveling ??

    Yes. It has been clearly stated dozens of times that this isn't a design philosophy that AoC is looking to embrace.
  • I'd like nodes to have guard towers for low level players to build and defend against other players and NPCs
    The towers would provide some protection or benefits to the node.
    These towers could be for level 15, 30 and 45 players.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Zazariel wrote: »
    I mean, it's done ?! it's already decided by devs ? The game development goes already too far to include pvp in leveling ??

    Just to make sure you understand, the game does promote and allow for pvp at many opportunities, it just doesn't let you level your character from pvp in any viable sense.
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  • ITs a PvX game impossible to only lvl just doing pvp, you will have to fight mobs at some point regardless

    Best advice i can give is join a guild focused on pvp and you will have plenty of action out there in the world.
  • I'm a bit disappointing. To be honest, game with RvR and leveling while PvP does exist ! I mean, why war is waiting for people to reach level max ? Why should i condemn hours of bashing mobs, quest before fighting for position, resources and lands ?! I'm ok still, if the game is developed in the other way, fine with it. But cant we not discuss about it ? If the game is created and designed to progress with players interaction, well then, PvP is a player vs player interaction, no ?
  • WarthWarth Member
    edited September 16
    Zazariel wrote: »
    I'm a bit disappointing. To be honest, game with RvR and leveling while PvP does exist ! I mean, why war is waiting for people to reach level max ? Why should i condemn hours of bashing mobs, quest before fighting for position, resources and lands ?! I'm ok still, if the game is developed in the other way, fine with it. But cant we not discuss about it ? If the game is created and designed to progress with players interaction, well then, PvP is a player vs player interaction, no ?

    Games like that do exist, this isn't one of them though.

    War doesn't wait until Max. Yiu can join wars while leveling. Its just not majorly rewarding to do so.

    PvP is mostly regressive/destructive by Design in Ashes. Summed up, all participants will have lost progress in the end, not gained it.

    PvE Builds the World/Progress
    PvP destroys the World/Progress.

    It really follows the EvE design philosophy in that regard where PvP generally is a net loss

    If you solely want to pvp, then ashes won't be for you. You will be expected to do major amounts of pve content as pvp and pve is geavily intertwined
  • Zazariel wrote: »
    I'm a bit disappointing. To be honest, game with RvR and leveling while PvP does exist ! I mean, why war is waiting for people to reach level max ? Why should i condemn hours of bashing mobs, quest before fighting for position, resources and lands ?! I'm ok still, if the game is developed in the other way, fine with it. But cant we not discuss about it ? If the game is created and designed to progress with players interaction, well then, PvP is a player vs player interaction, no ?
    L2 had people fighting each other literally from lvl 1. No one's stopping you from fighting others. But in order to be better at pvp you gotta do pve. Wanna know why? Because this is a PvX game and not a purely pvp one (neither it's a purely pve one).
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 17
    If XP was from Use rather than Kill then you could bash a tree and get some XP even if it were a little diminished. Kill could still create some XP so that it's more productive to bash and kill than bash and run in PvE.

    But extra XP from bashing in PvP sounds great. Maybe a bit less XP on kill but a bit extra XP from bashing people sounds good.

    It lends itself to Duels as well.
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited September 17
    @Zazariel
    Aside from the points made by Warth, here is the reason that the answer is no.

    PvP is everywhere in Ashes. Dying in PvP is similar to dying in PvE as you take death penalty. Even though that penalty is half if you were fighting in PvP, you still take half penalty. That includes the experience debt.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_death

    To me it looks like trying to gain experience purely in PvP is going to result in possibly insurmountable experience debt. Even if you do manage to level, the grind is going to be nuts. This is a game that is already intended to take 45 days at 4-6 hours playtime a day to hit max level. Trying to do this only in PvP while dying against the faster progressing superior geared PvE nerds sounds like something that only the most extreme gaming masochist would do. :|

    Also FYI, while it looks like arena won't have experience debt it does not look like that system will work for leveling to me. Even if it does grant XP. Which we haven't been told as far as I know.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas
  • Zazariel wrote: »
    I'm a bit disappointing. To be honest, game with RvR and leveling while PvP does exist ! I mean, why war is waiting for people to reach level max ? Why should i condemn hours of bashing mobs, quest before fighting for position, resources and lands ?! I'm ok still, if the game is developed in the other way, fine with it. But cant we not discuss about it ? If the game is created and designed to progress with players interaction, well then, PvP is a player vs player interaction, no ?

    I don't understand this either.
    Why force PvP players to level up doing PvE?

    Feels like a bad design.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    ITs a PvX game impossible to only lvl just doing pvp, you will have to fight mobs at some point regardless

    Best advice i can give is join a guild focused on pvp and you will have plenty of action out there in the world.

    PvX means the possibility to do both.
    But when leveling up... they say no, you will be a PvE player for at least 45 days, but longer if you do that without passion, dragging your feet through PvE content.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    edited September 17
    Strevi wrote: »
    I don't understand this either.
    Why force PvP players to level up doing PvE?

    Feels like a bad design.
    Feels like a PvX design. Simple.
    Strevi wrote: »
    PvX means the possibility to do both.
    But when leveling up... they say no, you will be a PvE player for at least 45 days, but longer if you do that without passion, dragging your feet through PvE content.
    And if Intrepid designs their farming locations/quests correctly there'll be a ton of pvp for that pve. I couldn't go an hour of farming in L2 w/o fighting someone for it. And unless you're literally the pioneer of all the content or the very last person to start leveling up on your server - you'll probably run into other people and try to fight for your right to party farm.
  • StreviStrevi Member
    edited September 17
    NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    I don't understand this either.
    Why force PvP players to level up doing PvE?

    Feels like a bad design.
    Feels like a PvX design. Simple.
    Strevi wrote: »
    PvX means the possibility to do both.
    But when leveling up... they say no, you will be a PvE player for at least 45 days, but longer if you do that without passion, dragging your feet through PvE content.
    And if Intrepid designs their farming locations/quests correctly there'll be a ton of pvp for that pve. I couldn't go an hour of farming in L2 w/o fighting someone for it. And unless you're literally the pioneer of all the content or the very last person to start leveling up on your server - you'll probably run into other people and try to fight for your right to party farm.

    That's true! :heart:
    So much discussion about how corruption protects made me forget that one can chose to fight.
    They socially manipulated my mind!
    They could have their own class in game, mind controllers.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • NiKr wrote: »
    And if Intrepid designs their farming locations/quests correctly there'll be a ton of pvp for that pve. I couldn't go an hour of farming in L2 w/o fighting someone for it. And unless you're literally the pioneer of all the content or the very last person to start leveling up on your server - you'll probably run into other people and try to fight for your right to party farm.

    So the PvP activity of fighting for resources will be present in the game. I think that's a very good point!

    Now I wonder what other PvsP or PvX activity will be present during the adventure and what will be their rewards/consequences?

    To clarify another point, I have absolutely nothing against progressing efficiently through quests or bashing. I just wonder if the PvP alternative can also fill the sometimes redundant leveling phases.
    Warth wrote:
    Games like that do exist, this isn't one of them though.

    War doesn't wait until Max. Yiu can join wars while leveling. Its just not majorly rewarding to do so.

    PvP is mostly regressive/destructive by Design in Ashes. Summed up, all participants will have lost progress in the end, not gained it.

    PvE Builds the World/Progress
    PvP destroys the World/Progress.

    It really follows the EvE design philosophy in that regard where PvP generally is a net loss

    If you solely want to pvp, then ashes won't be for you. You will be expected to do major amounts of pve content as pvp and pve is geavily intertwined

    This is a point where I would like to be enlightened. What is the reason for making pvp unprofitable and destroying world progression?
  • Zazariel wrote: »
    To clarify another point, I have absolutely nothing against progressing efficiently through quests or bashing. I just wonder if the PvP alternative can also fill the sometimes redundant leveling phases.
    If pvp gave XP (and/or even gear) - some people would be able to go through the game by just pvping. And that is not the goal of a PvX game. Just as PvErs won't be able to completely avoid pvp in their leveling process, the pvpers will have to pve too. That's pvx.

    You'll have enough pvp progression in the game. There'll be seasonal ladders in arenas, node/castle sieges, bounty hunting and caravan raiding - all of those will have some form of reward and will progress your character and its reputation on the server.

    There's also the open seas, guild/node wars and general flagging rules around boss fights, so in a way there's way more pvp features in the game, but they will all be interconnected with pve in some way.
  • StreviStrevi Member
    edited September 17
    Zazariel wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    And if Intrepid designs their farming locations/quests correctly there'll be a ton of pvp for that pve. I couldn't go an hour of farming in L2 w/o fighting someone for it. And unless you're literally the pioneer of all the content or the very last person to start leveling up on your server - you'll probably run into other people and try to fight for your right to party farm.

    So the PvP activity of fighting for resources will be present in the game. I think that's a very good point!

    Now I wonder what other PvsP or PvX activity will be present during the adventure and what will be their rewards/consequences?

    To clarify another point, I have absolutely nothing against progressing efficiently through quests or bashing. I just wonder if the PvP alternative can also fill the sometimes redundant leveling phases.
    Warth wrote:
    Games like that do exist, this isn't one of them though.

    War doesn't wait until Max. Yiu can join wars while leveling. Its just not majorly rewarding to do so.

    PvP is mostly regressive/destructive by Design in Ashes. Summed up, all participants will have lost progress in the end, not gained it.

    PvE Builds the World/Progress
    PvP destroys the World/Progress.

    It really follows the EvE design philosophy in that regard where PvP generally is a net loss

    If you solely want to pvp, then ashes won't be for you. You will be expected to do major amounts of pve content as pvp and pve is geavily intertwined

    This is a point where I would like to be enlightened. What is the reason for making pvp unprofitable and destroying world progression?

    World progression?

    Resouces will be scarce they say.
    I assume high tier resources will be scarce enough that some will be tempted to siege other cities for them or fallback to lower tier gear and mounts.

    Any death, PvP or PvE causes durability loss on gear and mounts.

    A legendary weapon you cannot repair is a dead weapon.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • WarthWarth Member
    edited September 17
    Zazariel wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    And if Intrepid designs their farming locations/quests correctly there'll be a ton of pvp for that pve. I couldn't go an hour of farming in L2 w/o fighting someone for it. And unless you're literally the pioneer of all the content or the very last person to start leveling up on your server - you'll probably run into other people and try to fight for your right to party farm.

    So the PvP activity of fighting for resources will be present in the game. I think that's a very good point!

    Now I wonder what other PvsP or PvX activity will be present during the adventure and what will be their rewards/consequences?

    To clarify another point, I have absolutely nothing against progressing efficiently through quests or bashing. I just wonder if the PvP alternative can also fill the sometimes redundant leveling phases.
    Warth wrote:
    Games like that do exist, this isn't one of them though.

    War doesn't wait until Max. Yiu can join wars while leveling. Its just not majorly rewarding to do so.

    PvP is mostly regressive/destructive by Design in Ashes. Summed up, all participants will have lost progress in the end, not gained it.

    PvE Builds the World/Progress
    PvP destroys the World/Progress.

    It really follows the EvE design philosophy in that regard where PvP generally is a net loss

    If you solely want to pvp, then ashes won't be for you. You will be expected to do major amounts of pve content as pvp and pve is geavily intertwined

    This is a point where I would like to be enlightened. What is the reason for making pvp unprofitable and destroying world progression?

    @Zazariel for one very simple reason really. Because thats the Design Choice Intrepid made. Whether you agree with it or not really doesnt matter. Thats just how it is.

    PvE Generates Progress. You get materials, you craft items, you build up Nodes.

    PvP doesnt generate anything. It destroys progress.
    • materials needed for repairs
    • the loss of caravans
    • the materials it took to build up Nodes
    • potentially Ships
    • siege equipment

    What is really created through PvP? Nothing. You merely steal stuff from somebody else or make sure that you get the stuff instead of somebody else.
  • If players are able to level purely through PvP, how do stop people from just killing their friends over and over with no resistance to level up almost instantly? That is bad design.
  • Zazariel wrote: »

    This is a point where I would like to be enlightened. What is the reason for making pvp unprofitable and destroying world progression?

    This is where you are confused. Pvp will be very, very profitable, but that is because PvE has value. When you destroy someones caravan you get a good chunk of what they were escorting. When you kill a player you get some of their materials and take over their farming location if they have one. When you enter a Battleground you are in a high value resource area be it farming monsters or gathering nodes, You fight others to attain such things.


    The reason PvP destroys world progression in some parts is so that world progression, (through PvE) can begin in other parts. (I.E. You live in a Node near a Smouldering mountain and want to progress the node to a higher tier to fight the dragon sleeping in the mountain. However because there is a metropolis node nearby you can't, so you go to war with that node and if you win you can loot their player warehouses and your node can now progress to fighting that supposed sleeping dragon)
    You PvP to fight for the resources and content. You PvE to experience the content.
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    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • Firstly, as someone that has participated in many many many alphas/betas over the last decade and a half, things do change. The people talking in absolutes would be wise to recognize this. Secondly, as somebody who absolutely loved lvling through pvp in Warhammer Age of Reckoning and Wildstar, it simply is a massive mistake for this not to be an option come release. For the die hard pvp fans, pve is often nothing more than glorified target dummy bashing with some varied skins; it's boring, overly easy, and after a few minutes is mind numbingly monotonous.

    With that out of the way, as a pvp player I am fully aware of the subjectivity inherent within the above statements and prescribe to a 'different strokes for different folks' mentality. I find that having both options to lvl through pvp and pve is by far the best approach, leaving the rest to the player. Some will stick to one, others will mix and match, it's simply the most inclusive and frankly best approach in my opinion.

    I know the devs are wildstar fans and I remain hopeful they come to recognize the merits in such an approach and tweak things accordingly.
    9f09h3T.jpeg
  • Spirit101 wrote: »
    Firstly, as someone that has participated in many many many alphas/betas over the last decade and a half, things do change.
    ...
    I know the devs are wildstar fans and I remain hopeful they come to recognize the merits in such an approach and tweak things accordingly.
    you left fully developed games to play unfinished alphas and betas?
    You left because those games changed or because they didn't? Or because you wanted a change?
    You want this game to be like the other ones you left or different? :smile:
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Spirit101 wrote: »
    Firstly, as someone that has participated in many many many alphas/betas over the last decade and a half, things do change. The people talking in absolutes would be wise to recognize this. Secondly, as somebody who absolutely loved lvling through pvp in Warhammer Age of Reckoning and Wildstar, it simply is a massive mistake for this not to be an option come release. For the die hard pvp fans, pve is often nothing more than glorified target dummy bashing with some varied skins; it's boring, overly easy, and after a few minutes is mind numbingly monotonous.

    With that out of the way, as a pvp player I am fully aware of the subjectivity inherent within the above statements and prescribe to a 'different strokes for different folks' mentality. I find that having both options to lvl through pvp and pve is by far the best approach, leaving the rest to the player. Some will stick to one, others will mix and match, it's simply the most inclusive and frankly best approach in my opinion.

    I know the devs are wildstar fans and I remain hopeful they come to recognize the merits in such an approach and tweak things accordingly.

    I thought Steven clearly intends to have an "end-game" cycle of:
    > We PvP - accumulate exp debt
    > We PvE - clear that exp debt

    Which is not compatible with PvP to clear the exp debt unless you limit it to a "no exp loss" PvP activity?
    You could create an arena for it, but then we're truly separating PvE gameplay from PvP gameplay and I can't call that PvX
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • maouw wrote: »
    Spirit101 wrote: »
    Firstly, as someone that has participated in many many many alphas/betas over the last decade and a half, things do change. The people talking in absolutes would be wise to recognize this. Secondly, as somebody who absolutely loved lvling through pvp in Warhammer Age of Reckoning and Wildstar, it simply is a massive mistake for this not to be an option come release. For the die hard pvp fans, pve is often nothing more than glorified target dummy bashing with some varied skins; it's boring, overly easy, and after a few minutes is mind numbingly monotonous.

    With that out of the way, as a pvp player I am fully aware of the subjectivity inherent within the above statements and prescribe to a 'different strokes for different folks' mentality. I find that having both options to lvl through pvp and pve is by far the best approach, leaving the rest to the player. Some will stick to one, others will mix and match, it's simply the most inclusive and frankly best approach in my opinion.

    I know the devs are wildstar fans and I remain hopeful they come to recognize the merits in such an approach and tweak things accordingly.

    I thought Steven clearly intends to have an "end-game" cycle of:
    > We PvP - accumulate exp debt
    > We PvE - clear that exp debt

    Which is not compatible with PvP to clear the exp debt unless you limit it to a "no exp loss" PvP activity?
    You could create an arena for it, but then we're truly separating PvE gameplay from PvP gameplay and I can't call that PvX

    I had to check this out.
    The wiki states that experience can be gained via PvP too
    Experience (XP) is gained through a variety of vertical and horizontal progression paths, such as PvP, PvE, Exploration, Gathering/Processing/Crafting, and Events/Quests.[8][9]
    XP will be awarded for participating in objective-based PvP on a diminishing returns basis.[10]

    Exploration might be something which can give experience constantly, if there will be always something new to explore :smile:
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nodes change and the discussed fog of war from earlier livestreams is meant to return to your map, giving you more options to explore areas you may have already passed over.

    The diminishing returns on pvp are meant to stop win trading and other activities used in games that have exp gains for pvp actions. So, as many others previously pointed out, you will gain some progression from sanctioned pvp activities, less so in the open world.
    south-park-rabble-rabble-rabbl-53b58d315aa49.jpg
  • NiKr wrote:
    If pvp gave XP (and/or even gear) - some people would be able to go through the game by just pvping. And that is not the goal of a PvX game. Just as PvErs won't be able to completely avoid pvp in their leveling process, the pvpers will have to pve too. That's pvx.

    I didn't realize that PvsX had "mandatory" PvE AND PvP phases, which again is a very comforting point! Thx Nikr :smile:
    warth wrote:
    What is really created through PvP? Nothing. You merely steal stuff from somebody else or make sure that you get the stuff instead of somebody else.

    A bit contradictory. PvP seems viable in case of victory, theft or embargo on a resource.

    I understand after the idea that alternating pve phases to prepare for pvp is the studio's concept. At least I know what to expect and then I will make my decision to invest in it or not.

    Right now, during the leveling phase, I'm still not clear on what activities will alternate phases. Even if the pvp makes the player's progression "regress", it must have a profitable counter effect?

    Otherwise, nobody will do the pvp activities during the leveling. It will be, once again, a simple race to the max level! Except for a niche community of wise players who know how to appreciate a video game and enjoy the adventure it offers.

    WHIT3ROS3 wrote:
    If players are able to level purely through PvP, how do stop people from just killing their friends over and over with no resistance to level up almost instantly? That is bad design.

    Totally agree. The goal again is to diversify the activities during the leveling. I now understand that the term PvX means both PvE and PvP (I thought PvsX means Pvp in numerical inferiority) so diverse activities, I'm for it.
    But PvP must have a meaning, a profit, even if it kills the efficient progression to the max level, it must be rewarded on other points!
    Sathrago wrote:
    This is where you are confused. Pvp will be very, very profitable, but that is because PvE has value. When you destroy someones caravan you get a good chunk of what they were escorting. When you kill a player you get some of their materials and take over their farming location if they have one. When you enter a Battleground you are in a high value resource area be it farming monsters or gathering nodes, You fight others to attain such things.

    A very reassuring point then. But again, will these activities be available during the leveling phase?
    Sathrago wrote:
    The reason PvP destroys world progression in some parts is so that world progression, (through PvE) can begin in other parts. (I.E. You live in a Node near a Smouldering mountain and want to progress the node to a higher tier to fight the dragon sleeping in the mountain. However because there is a metropolis node nearby you can't, so you go to war with that node and if you win you can loot their player warehouses and your node can now progress to fighting that supposed sleeping dragon)
    You PvP to fight for the resources and content. You PvE to experience the content.

    It's a concept I totally support. But it's end-game content, i'm asking about leveling content.
    maouw wrote:
    I thought Steven clearly intends to have an "end-game" cycle of:
    > We PvP - accumulate exp debt
    > We PvE - clear that exp debt

    Again, this is the end-game cycle. And I support that concept. But what about the leveling phase?
    The diminishing returns on pvp are meant to stop win trading and other activities used in games that have exp gains for pvp actions. So, as many others previously pointed out, you will gain some progression from sanctioned pvp activities, less so in the open world.

    I didn't quite understand some of the points. Sanctioned pvp? And why less in the open world?
  • Basic question
    Will there be PVP quests ? or will it be more organic PVP

  • Zazariel wrote: »
    I didn't realize that PvsX had "mandatory" PvE AND PvP phases, which again is a very comforting point! Thx Nikr :smile:
    It's not phases and it's not mandatory. But a lot of people will want to farm the same limited content and the only way they can get to farm it optimally is to kill other contesters in pvp.
    Zazariel wrote: »
    A bit contradictory. PvP seems viable in case of victory, theft or embargo on a resource.
    Personally for the winner it might be beneficial, but in the bigger picture there's always loss, because a lot of pvp events sink mats, while even plain open world pvp still decays your gear and there's a chance that the winner might've used gear whose repair costs are higher than what that winner looted off of their victim.
    Zazariel wrote: »
    Right now, during the leveling phase, I'm still not clear on what activities will alternate phases. Even if the pvp makes the player's progression "regress", it must have a profitable counter effect?

    Otherwise, nobody will do the pvp activities during the leveling. It will be, once again, a simple race to the max level! Except for a niche community of wise players who know how to appreciate a video game and enjoy the adventure it offers.
    The profitable effect is fighting back and winning so that you can continue progressing. This is also why you lose less stuff when flagged. Intrepid's trying to promote proper pvp and make people understand that fighting back is beneficial in more ways than one.
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