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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Damage Redirection Mechanics - any good?
Xeeg
Member, Alpha Two
I recently came across this idea during the tank discussion, but I think it deserves its own thread.
There is a lot of talk about threat and agro tables, but what about damage redirection mechanics? First of all, they could be PVE and PVP cross transferable, which is very important in an open world game. Then there are so many ways to implement them that it could be a lot of fun building interesting teams with odd combos in order to win a fight.
Of course, there may be very good reasons NOT to do this, please feel free to comment.
Here are some ideas for very basic abilities to illustrate what I'm talking about.
Obviously I hope the game designers can expand on these ideas for abilities that are much more clever and intricately balanced.
Cleric/Mage - Oracle:
Curse enemy to redirect 80% of spell damage to target ally for 5s.
Tank/Tank - Guardian:
AOE shout to redirect all movement impairing abilities from allies to self for the next 10s.
Fighter/Tank - Dreadnought:
Charge target enemy. Ignores unit collision except for target (can be pushed/stunned out of it). Upon hitting target, AOE absorb the next 200 dmg dealt by players affected for 30s
These type of abilities could be used in combination with invulnerabilities, immunities, resistances, shields, temp hps, etc. It could also open up the whole game for a large variety of tanking combinations. Maybe Mage/Tank (Spellstone) can cast "Invulnerability from spell dmg for 5s" to combo with Oracle for a specific part of a phase. Sure, maybe a Guardian "Invulnerability" can do the same job, and alot more, but now we have options.
You could have many combinations of these mechanics spread through the classes, making party composition building interesting, dynamic and a skill unto itself. "We need at least 4 immunities/resistances and 3 redirection abilities for this fight, OR a couple stuns and half the immunities". OK, maybe a 3rd of the class combinations can get some kind of immunity/resistances (X/Tank etc.) and a 3rd get some kind of redirect. Now we have some ways to make our group work, and it's going to require coordination and team play, and every group you join might have a different way to solve this problem.
Considering unit collision is a thing in this game, we have another layer of damage disruption too.
As long as this type of variable is something you can change relatively easily (Maybe some classes get it as a baseline ability, some augments do it, some weapons/shields do it) then it won't be too frustrating to play with different groups each night. Especially if the idea is that we want to actually go out and play with the people that are around us in the game, and not spend hours spamming LFG trying to find the perfect puzzle piece to fit your group build.
Scarcity problems in the game should be fun to solve by playing the game.
There is a lot of talk about threat and agro tables, but what about damage redirection mechanics? First of all, they could be PVE and PVP cross transferable, which is very important in an open world game. Then there are so many ways to implement them that it could be a lot of fun building interesting teams with odd combos in order to win a fight.
Of course, there may be very good reasons NOT to do this, please feel free to comment.
Here are some ideas for very basic abilities to illustrate what I'm talking about.
Obviously I hope the game designers can expand on these ideas for abilities that are much more clever and intricately balanced.
Cleric/Mage - Oracle:
Curse enemy to redirect 80% of spell damage to target ally for 5s.
Tank/Tank - Guardian:
AOE shout to redirect all movement impairing abilities from allies to self for the next 10s.
Fighter/Tank - Dreadnought:
Charge target enemy. Ignores unit collision except for target (can be pushed/stunned out of it). Upon hitting target, AOE absorb the next 200 dmg dealt by players affected for 30s
These type of abilities could be used in combination with invulnerabilities, immunities, resistances, shields, temp hps, etc. It could also open up the whole game for a large variety of tanking combinations. Maybe Mage/Tank (Spellstone) can cast "Invulnerability from spell dmg for 5s" to combo with Oracle for a specific part of a phase. Sure, maybe a Guardian "Invulnerability" can do the same job, and alot more, but now we have options.
You could have many combinations of these mechanics spread through the classes, making party composition building interesting, dynamic and a skill unto itself. "We need at least 4 immunities/resistances and 3 redirection abilities for this fight, OR a couple stuns and half the immunities". OK, maybe a 3rd of the class combinations can get some kind of immunity/resistances (X/Tank etc.) and a 3rd get some kind of redirect. Now we have some ways to make our group work, and it's going to require coordination and team play, and every group you join might have a different way to solve this problem.
Considering unit collision is a thing in this game, we have another layer of damage disruption too.
As long as this type of variable is something you can change relatively easily (Maybe some classes get it as a baseline ability, some augments do it, some weapons/shields do it) then it won't be too frustrating to play with different groups each night. Especially if the idea is that we want to actually go out and play with the people that are around us in the game, and not spend hours spamming LFG trying to find the perfect puzzle piece to fit your group build.
Scarcity problems in the game should be fun to solve by playing the game.
4
Comments
Also the abilities should be more physical rather than a form of magic.
Physical classes should be physical.
Sub-classes should be a half-modification; Tank sub-Mage should be just a smarter kind of Tank; Fighter sub-Mage should be a Weapon Master lol. Tank sub-Mage could be a Martial Artist and blend unarmed with weapon/ shield, having a few extra moves and can switch between different attack types a bit quicker OR combo a little more.
Tank sub-Tank as Grappler; Tank sub-Cleric can be a 'Wall' just really stoic basically. Great with a shield. Doesn't move as much when collided with. Higher health regen, maybe regens a little in-combat or something even.
Tank sub-Summoner could be a Jailer. Great at using a Chain or something. Rope. Bolas. Tools to Ensnare. Has a bit of extra Knock to their Attacks/Bashes without Staggering (or minimal staggering).
Tank sub-Bard can be a Guardian. Great at protecting One person, can quickly move their party members out of danger or something, a little self- sacrificial (dramatic), and is a bit more agile.
Tank sub-Ranger could be a Lancer. Lance stuff. Minimal throwing involved.
Tank sub-Rogue could be an Interceptor, great at mobility and providing a hand, recovers from knock back due to Agility pretty well. A bit better at dodging and deflecting or parrying rather than blocking and taking hits.
Just variations of the physical theme should be what sub-types are all about. A lot more true to the Archetype as well.
Just shhhh man. You always saying dumb shit and trying to make this game your next survival game.
Great suggestions, reflect damage skills should 100% be part of the Tank kit, in sma scale PvP i can see it being the tank main damage output when attacked by another player.
Tank could have both magical and physical reflect skills but would spec more into one, love this idea and it's a great way to make tanks not easily killed by a DPS in 1v1 without having to give the tank high damage
Even better ... if a specific dungeon or world boss mechanic required players to showcase these skills (when they are normally niche at best), that would be cool.
You 100% love arcade MMOs and arcade games.
Because you love wasting time on low-effort shit.
+++
In small dosis though.
but multiplied to the power of Neo:
I recall complaining how low-effort replies to me were in another thread.
So yeah it makes perfect sense. People here want to put in 1% effort and 'win' or progress in shit.
Actually putting in the work to have a physical tank with a deep kit based on attributes, skill, and physical moves; adding more mechanics to the base game (movement, positioning, 'control effects', wound system, et cetera) is Not cheap and easy.
I'd rather see something good than something cheap and easy. L' OM 'OA
Thanks for commenting on my thread. I'm not exactly sure how your comments relate to the topic of damage redirection. Are you trying to make the argument that its implementation would result in players putting in no effort and winning easily?
In GW1, monks had "protection" spells that did just that. 'block the next 5 attacks against target', 'protected from conditions for 10 seconds', etc. They were the go-to healer in the game. However, warriors had physical blocking skills, a 'block next spell used against you' skill, along with armor buffs. Ritualist had "while holding this item, take reduced magic damage" etc.
There's various ways to add similar mitigation skills, while keeping the unique flavors of each sub class
Founder and Guild Leader of -Providence-
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/367542/#Comment_367542
Damage redirection is magical. Everything else in my first post is clear.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Aegis
For example give minor redirection abilities to archetypes augmented with a Cleric and give minor "absorb and retaliate" to Tank augmented archetypes. Full redirection or reflection could be limited to primary Clerics and Tanks, provided they have gathered enough of their respective class resources.
Example: A Cleric with 7-10 devotion casting an AoE heal will receive an additional perk that links the healed people to the enemies in the target area for 10 seconds or so. If the enemies receive damage during that time, allies will be healed for 5% of that damage and if an ally is damaged during that time he redirects 10% of the damage onto an affected enemy (so if it is 1 V 10, the ally could redirect 10% of the damage to them for a short duration). This would be a very "ultimate" buff obviously that would give the cleric a very strong character identity.
Example 2: A Tank could have different "stances" that burn his Grit. One of those stances could be a "Retaliation" Stances, especially favorable for evasion tanks. As long as the Retaliation stance is active incoming damage (independent of whether received or not) is thrown back at a target, whereas the damage reflected could be equal to the percentage of remaining Grit. The target must be in meele range; the prefered target will be the enemy target during the activation or the target with the most hit points at the time of activation (it does not switch unless the target dies).
In my opinion that would be more fun than having to worry that any class being able to pull out a reflect on you. Much like I think it would be more than just whacky to have other archetypes than the Rouge be able to go into camouflage.
Anyone know?
Tanks had damage redirect mechanics in the node war stream. At least one of them was an AoE redirect from what I could tell as well. Someone correct me if im wrong but from what I remember hearing from PI testers these mechanics were present and quite valuable.
Yeah I heard one was like a dmg nerf if the target wasn't attacking the tank, not quite a "redirect" but similar.
I would hope that the tank, cleric, and summoner would have ways of redirecting damage via buffs/debuffs.
Redirects are basically a weaker version of a protection spell that maintain the overall group DPS, HOTS and mana required but just shift the focus.
Makes sense to me in a PVX environment where tanks can't draw agro from PVE and PVP equally.
I'd love to see abilities like this stick with the multipurpose theme other abilities have. For example, since the game has collision between characters, when the Tank uses this Charge, enemies he contacts should be pushed to the side. Adding this small change would enable him to:
1. Effectively get to the back line
2. Disrupt formations and create chaos
3. Interrupt ability and spell casting of those he contacts.
4. Create opportunities for creative utilization of skills. Like angling it so that opponents get knocked off cliffs to their deaths by fall damage. Or even to create separation between your cleric and the rogue that is right on top of him.
Adding small additional effects like this to abilities multiplies the capabilities and fun of a class when used by a skilled or experienced player.
Great topic, thank you
Boom! Exactly, nice! Those are really good. Love how Aegis works for positioning and direction of tank face.
Maybe some versions of the summoner and clerics get some too.
Could also see something like a Bard spell that redirects damage from the Bard to all party members within 10 yards. Bard is about positioning, so the more people are around him the less damage each would take. Not sure if the Bard in the middle of a group is a major focus target but if so this would be the kind of ability i would like to see.
The skills by the poster above are good examples of these CD based damage reduction/redirection abilities I mention.
Thorns and Fort to the Wild Blade.