Dev Discussion #45 - Gathering and PvP

Strevi

Gatherers when killed, should be able to hunt as ghosts, to take revenge on their killer.

Hartwell

T Elf wrote: »

Absolutely hate losing gathering materials by any deaths. In Alpha 1 I could never get enough materials required for crafting because I kept losing what I needed when I died, therefore, I never got to try crafting.

That said, there are so many other incentives for PvP why do you feel the need to pick on gatherers? Gatherers already have the environment to overcome with beasts and bandits and just finding locations; why must there be a need to add more grief to gatherers?

I think you can loot yourself, but it does create some questions around the possibility of mob training someone. Like could I round up mobs in an area, run to a player, crush them with the mobs, then loot them? Perhaps mob related deaths should have a specific rule set? Might need some testing.

Sweatycup

Don't take the risk or reward for gatherers away from pvp/pking/griefing.
Gathering Guilds
Instead add a gathering guild that can offset some losses. You pay the guild for membership and get re-imbursed based off your credit with them up to a certain amount of re-imbursement money. This could help run rep quests as well for gatherers of a node.
Religion
Also a religion catering towards crafters and gatherers that magically put things back in your bag that could of been looted on random choice of item restored into bag. So bob who killed luke gets a random chance to keep one or a few stacks/items.

Rednam

Vaknar wrote: »

Dev Discussion - Gathering and PvP
Artisan gatherers will be prime targets for combatant players. With that said, would you like to see alternative play loops that provide you with a way to mitigate or eliminate the risk of dropping gathered materials

I think first and foremost ALL players starting this game need to understand what this game is. PVP, with risks...

Any mitigation would need to be cost effective for the gatherer to be able to use it, yet not so easy as to get rid of all risk completely.

Voxtrium

Goalid wrote: »

Only dropping half or a quarter of your materials gathered is already enough of a mitigation, you don't have to add more mitigation to lost materials from player death.

@Goalid What about when those quarter of resources just happen to be your entire stack of rare loot that drops from the loot source? RNGesus takes away player agency, its about risk vs reward but if 1 day im mining and ive managed to get 100 hardened wood from farming a forest for 2 hours, then some dude kills me and i just so happen to lose the 100 stack of wood? Nah thats garbage, implementing an item to store a small number of resources, or scaling the likelihood of the drop, back with the likelihood of the original drop chance makes sense.

Frankenstein

My opinion: Yes but not a complete mitigation just dropping a lower % the higher that skill is, be it 5-10% less dropped.

Azherae

I actually don't see why people want this tied to skill level.

That feels more to me like one of those annoying 'unfriendly loops' that, while it doesn't necessarily make players quit, is another thing in the 'Whoops, all Penalties!' pile for gameplay.

Players who start early will get their skill up faster so that even at-level opponents who can consistently beat them won't get as much drops. But it's gathering. You have to gather to level it, right?

So 'you have to go out there and do the frustrating thing so that you can slowly gain enough skill to be less frustrated by it later'? At that point there are so many other games that have equally 'annoying' loops. If we thought everything was going to be fine (and some do), then we wouldn't care about this anyway, and if we don't, then adding bonuses to those who gather the most, seems to be the exact opposite of the game's design.

It's just another non-engaging stopgap. "Do X thing until something passively changes."

But worst from the economic side is that IF we assume that all players get attacked and lose equally on average, then this just says 'high level gatherers are innately more profitable than low level (good) because they are at less risk (bad, imo)'.

At least if the high level gatherer is going into a high level area to be more profitable, their risk probably increased. With a level-based or even gear-based system for mitigating drops, monopolizing more common resources against new players (who can't even kill you) would be even worse than it already will be.

And if we think Common Resources won't be worth gathering in that way, we have other problems.

Goalid

Voxtrium wrote: »

Goalid wrote: »

Only dropping half or a quarter of your materials gathered is already enough of a mitigation, you don't have to add more mitigation to lost materials from player death.

@Goalid What about when those quarter of resources just happen to be your entire stack of rare loot that drops from the loot source? RNGesus takes away player agency, its about risk vs reward but if 1 day im mining and ive managed to get 100 hardened wood from farming a forest for 2 hours, then some dude kills me and i just so happen to lose the 100 stack of wood? Nah thats garbage, implementing an item to store a small number of resources, or scaling the likelihood of the drop, back with the likelihood of the original drop chance makes sense.

They could make it so that you drop 25% of each stack of materials on you, not just leave which mats drop up to RNG. But I don't see the problem with one or two protected item slots in your inventory, unless the system is like how you're imagining it. I gather for an hour and receive 95% low tier wood, but also get 5% rare item procs which I keep protected in those item slots. Then the incentive for PvP is dramatically lowered. I hope the gathering system is more like Star Wars Galaxies anyways, so hopefully it's not like that. And would you think that's a good system when guilds are PvPing over world boss drops? I think those might have to drop automatically if you die before you make it to town.

DeeSav

While I like the current system and think it is already pretty forgiving since you only drop partial resources, it might weigh on the PvE/Gatherers a lot less if it wasn't completely random. Something like a safe container like Tarkov or The Cycle could be a good alternative. A limited capacity section of the inventory that can not be dropped with a weight threshold so they cant just have stacks of resources in there. People tend to take a lot more kindly to that type of mechanic rather than RNG of not knowing what they will lose. As they progress through whatever gathering proficiency it can slowly raise the weight limit of the "safe" inventory slots and thus reward the gatherer with a little more guaranteed resources as they progress and being ganked gets a little less painful as time goes on. To be clear tho these safe slots should be very limited and balanced so that it does not detract from the high risk nature of the game. It should not be optimal to run out and fill your safe pocket and immediately return to base to offload, its just minimizes the risk enough to let people think "Oh well at least I got that diamond I needed tucked away, it took me forever to get one".

Overlord_Lucifer

As I wrote on Reddit. This game is has a core philosophy based around the principle of Risk versus Reward. We cannot take that philosophy seriously, if we just allow PvE gatherers to not have risk when out farming nodes.
They should drop all of the loot from the nodes they farmed, but not their gear. This would force the player to have a true risk behind gathering. This may seem a tad aggressive, but at the same time will affect the economy and price of goods in game.

Magic Man

No... I do get the reasoning behind this post but please no. PvE crowd won't touch this game anyway. Why not go full hardcore and give us a game with meaningful PvX as promised 👻

MaBucket

The Current Problem
Currently the gathering system balance hinges on the corruption system being effective, but in the case where corruption is not a strong enough deterrant it will fall apart and the experience will be unenjoyable for everyone who isn't an existing or hardcore player.

Possible Solution
- Elite NPC highway guard patrols along developed roads, number of patrols/frequency based on node level.
- Gathering NPC factions working near late-stage nodes, perhaps in the form of a small logging camp that has simple guards.
- --- Further to the above, perhaps a player system to set-up a temporary gathering plot, paying other players to guard: mining quarry/logging camp/fishing area.

This system offers the following benefits:
1. Late-stage nodes feel more impactful.
2. Main roads become safer, but not entirely safe (These are not backroads, they should feel safer; roads aren't cheap.)
3. Gatherer's will be able to harvest basic materials along the route, this route will likely be picked clean, but it gives new players a safe option and more casual players a chance to gather some materials.
4. More competitive players will go further afield to gather more resources with less people competing other gathering nodes.

Happymeal2415

T Elf wrote: »

Absolutely hate losing gathering materials by any deaths. In Alpha 1 I could never get enough materials required for crafting because I kept losing what I needed when I died, therefore, I never got to try crafting.

That said, there are so many other incentives for PvP why do you feel the need to pick on gatherers? Gatherers already have the environment to overcome with beasts and bandits and just finding locations; why must there be a need to add more grief to gatherers?

I don't think it's adding more grief to gatherers. Every other aspect of the game has to deal with it. Why do you feel that the gatherers should have grief removed that others still have to deal with? Not a shot just a question.

SomeRandomName

I will exploit every weakness I can, not even corruption will stop my wrath. Thank you for gathering my flowers.

hapy

I remember reading somewhere that on death you will lose 50% of gatherables and hunting certificates. If this is the case I completely disagree and I think this is too much. Especially because we are talking about pvp and not pve consequences. I know that if you fight back you will lose less but 30% is still a lot.

I am not saying remove risk altogether. No, but gatherers are doing most of the work in the entire crafting pipeline. It is significant active time investment and you are giving other players power to take 50% of the grind session by one won pvp. That is in my opinion way too much and it will only encourage cheap ganking.
I don't agree that you need to have such hardcore consequences to have balanced risk / reward.

I am assuming that materials will be stored in inventory in stacks and when one stack is full another slot will be filling up until its capped. So I propose that on death there is chance of multiple stacks that could drop only some % of their value.
So if you don't fight back and you don't have some other gathering equipment that could help mitigate it, you will have 30% chance of dropping 50% of one stack, then 10% chance of dropping 30% of second stack and so on. When you fight back percentages are lower. When you equip something that could mitigate it, the % is lower. The equipment that helps mitigate the % of drop could be trade-of of some sort. And let's say you could craft some legendary bag that could have few low capacity slots that are safe from dropping.

I just don't see how is the risk / reward balanced if someone is farming and then you get killed by higher lvl player that focuses mainly on pvp. If you get killed by pve that's kind of ok, but imho in pvp it is not balanced to lose huge amount of work in one pvp.
I get it, AoC is niche MMO but it doesn't have to be that hardcore to have fulfilling risk / reward.

BTW I used to play Lineage2 and holy sh*t I hate losing exp on death

Krald

Losing materials while getting ganked feels really bad, however the entire purpose of the system it seems like yall are making is to encourage players interacting with one another. So while losing materials on death seems like it only encourages negative interaction, it also encourages players working together via things like Mercenaries getting hired, guilds protecting members etc.

I think overall it is dropping mats is a system that reinforces the risk/reward element of the game that makes it so enticing....and corruption serves to prevent this from being too abusive.

hapy

Treefrog wrote: »

Losing materials while getting ganked feels really bad, however the entire purpose of the system it seems like yall are making is to encourage players interacting with one another. So while losing materials on death seems like it only encourages negative interaction, it also encourages players working together via things like Mercenaries getting hired, guilds protecting members etc.

I think overall it is dropping mats is a system that reinforces the risk/reward element of the game that makes it so enticing....and corruption serves to prevent this from being too abusive.

I agree with the encouraging grouping but I still think it is a lot of loss. It's not like you need to constantly think about getting a group, sometimes it is good to go solo. I am advocating for some healthy balance.

Percimes

xMrWoolf wrote: »

Percimes wrote: »

Do you lose the resources regardless if the other player loot you or not? Meaning, a death is a death, same consequences no matter if it's from PvE or PvP: you die, you lose stuff. Guarantied.

I know, on a personal level, I won't attack anyone because I want to steal their resources. Ever. Killing them to deny the access to a resources spot, maybe if they don't want to share, no problem with that. But gathering resources by looting gatherers? That seems so inefficient to me, at least on a character level. It's a different story for caravans with their larger quantities and that's the mechanic for acquiring resources through PvP that should be the focus.

It's funny how those mentioning the risk vs. reward to gather materials stay suspiciously quiet on the risk vs. reward on the attackers side of things.

I consider dropping resources a toxic reward. For my part, I'll make sure anyone attacking me with impossible odds for me to win will get as little reward as possible: I'll destroy the resources, if I can. I won't be the only one losing my time at least.

if you die you will lose resources regardless of a player/mob killing you. if you die to a mob you can run back to your body and loot the dropped resources. if you are with a group grinding mobs together and a party memebr dies to mobs he will drop loot that you can pick up. any death drops resources.

the risk for the attackers is also dropping their loot/dying and receiving the death penalty/or potentially going corrupted and dropping their actual equipped gear on death. some legendary items will be limited also so some players could potentially be risking one of a kind items for going corrupted which would be a massive loss on their end.

dont think you can delete items i think it just drops them onto the floor. attacking back reduces your losses but staying green will also flag them corrupted so you and your friends can come and kill the murderer for potentially even bigger rewards then your resources

If anyone can loot the ash pile, I would make it so that mobs can also loot it, at the very least the intelligent ones, and add it to their inventory. PvE and PvP deaths should be as little different as possible, and not to the whim of random passing player sampling ash piles here and there as Lister freshly out of temporal stasis (for the Red Dwarf fans out there ). As close the experience for both, the better.

If I can't destroy stuff on the go and only drop it, I'll carry a lot of junk to drop as I flee. A merry chase of is-it-good-or-only-a-half-eaten-muffin? Enough to slow the pursuit.

As for real options for mitigating losses...
1) Buying time limited insurances. Covering an additional x% of resources to not drop on death. Death brings the timer to 0. If no death occurred during the protection period, no refund. Part of the cost of business.

2) Booby-trapping your bag. High damage explosion to anyone other than yourself opening the bag. Takes inventory space. Higher risks to anyone pilfering. Would become the norm rather fast though.

Fantmx

There are a lot of people asking for this mechanic to be left alone.

So I say ok, let's leave in place. But let's also add to it.

Intrepid can add a system that let's gatherers, refiners and crafters blacklist PKers from buying any of their wares, directly or indirectly, in perpetuity, until the gatherer, refiner or crafter decided to lift the ban.

That would include buying anything from a third party who had bought something from the original crafter/owner.

This blacklist could include families and guilds and would be account wide to include alts and prevent them from working around the system.

This would counter the risk to the gatherer by adding to the risk of the PKer.

You can take part of my materials today but lose out on the sword that only I can craft tomorrow and every day after.

SparkyCJB

I think everyone should drop mats on pvp death. Gathered drops gathered items, processors drop "spilt ink" "smashed copper bar" etc, and crafters drop "bent sword" "broken bow" "ripped cloak" etc. Everyone drops something. But all those somethings need to be processed or re-crafted to be used, or sold as is.

edit: these would be non-equipped and/or non-bound items Basically if it can be sold as is not equipped a mat of a broken version is dropped

Optics2134

MaBucket wrote: »

The Current Problem
Currently the gathering system balance hinges on the corruption system being effective, but in the case where corruption is not a strong enough deterrant it will fall apart and the experience will be unenjoyable for everyone who isn't an existing or hardcore player.

Possible Solution
- Elite NPC highway guard patrols along developed roads, number of patrols/frequency based on node level.
- Gathering NPC factions working near late-stage nodes, perhaps in the form of a small logging camp that has simple guards.
- --- Further to the above, perhaps a player system to set-up a temporary gathering plot, paying other players to guard: mining quarry/logging camp/fishing area.

This system offers the following benefits:
1. Late-stage nodes feel more impactful.
2. Main roads become safer, but not entirely safe (These are not backroads, they should feel safer; roads aren't cheap.)
3. Gatherer's will be able to harvest basic materials along the route, this route will likely be picked clean, but it gives new players a safe option and more casual players a chance to gather some materials.
4. More competitive players will go further afield to gather more resources with less people competing other gathering nodes.

This thought train is most applicable in my opinion, I am a would be ganker, not griefer. I only play games to pvp, with that being said. Killing a lvl 5 who is picking basic herbs when I am lvl 50, should give me a massive corruption debuff, and put me on a bounty board for a while. However, If I face roll a lvl 50 player with comparable "Item lvl /stats/ect" Flagged or unflagged I should get a good chunk of their goods/gold. Less if they are flagged more if they are trying to hide behind the Walmart bubble of "its not fair" The fucking Middle Ages were not fair nor is life. GTFO it! To me this forces a player to be skilled at the game in order to be able to craft "the best shit" as Steven says. TO MANY times in other games, I see crafters/farmers with HUGE stacks of currency and resources which allows them to outpace a lot of other people as far as gear progression. But they are absolute "Dog shit" at the game and couldn't protect themself form more than one mob at a time.

Sytems are the key to it being fun. NOT changing the amount dropped or forcing players to hire guards. Put guards on road that are impactful. Not unkillable but make you think twice before you pull one. Make the bounty systems challenging and rewarding. So many games the PVP currency is useless except shit cosmetics. GIMME GOLD for hunting down a scumbag. Make people want to sign up to go protect the main roads or to "heal "gathering parties. Maybe make areas that are rich in nodes like shit is in real life... Hey this area has 200 good trees, or that area is full of diamonds in the rock. Let's build a group and all of us go out and collect as many recourses as we can and have safety in numbers. You know, kinda like how people did it before the modern era. I think the way most mmos do gathering is DUMB. walk 20 ft flower, walk ten more ore, 20 feet left, a tree to log. This is a lazy person's farm loop and REALLY boring. I have utter confidence you guys will get it close and fine tune it in alpha.

Losing gold vs losing mats seems easier to balance. At any random time, this flower is worth 3g and that one is worth 150. Dude farmed that stack of 150g flower a week ago when it was 50g value, but a Node upgraded and now everyone needs it to make more copium drinks and the price has gone up. But you kill him today and clean house. That's pretty raw dog if you ask me and a little too harsh. Nobody wants to constantly have to inventory their bags and compare prices before they run to do shit. "oh shit! hold on guys I have to run to the bank before I rescue you from getting ganked and drop of my lvl 700 ruby studded golden wood shavings. I don't want to lose them to pvp fight".... that sounds like a massive pain in the ass. Sry for the scatter brain rant been watching to many Narc videos. Shout to the guy he cracks me up and blast truth about how mmo's can be better.

Brotgutra

I love this topic and love to be included! For me, there is nothing sweeter than to kill a would be ganker when I’m gathering/fishing. This requires a lot to be prepared IMO. Someone ganking is normally geared and prepared for the fight. While the gatherer could be under geared and not even a fan of pvp (my wife is not a huge fan of getting ganked while gathering) if you have an alt that is your gatherer, they’re most likely not going to be geared to compete. At this point your skill level has to make up for gear and their opener. In my wife’s case, she’s not a great pvp’er. So if some griefer can kill her and take her mats, she gets discouraged and doesn’t have fun. Often she doesn’t even fight back. At this point she calls me to come avenge her giving me the chance to be my wife’s hero! I REALLY like the idea that fighting back drops less mats( promoting pvp). OR maybe, you get some sort of stacking buff per node of gathering/fishing that doesn’t allow you to drop mats. I believe that world pvp REALLY adds to games. When I farm, I’m CONSTANTLY looking around almost paranoid ( I don’t want to give anyone a good opener) . WPVP also often makes people accountable for their actions, which promotes an overall better gaming environment IMO. For someone that doesn’t like pvp, if they have an option to hire guards or put a bounty on someone’s head I believe this would also help the non pvpers. One thing that is tough, is a group of griefers. Will they all get the corruption if they all gank someone? Will they get corruption from rezzing or healing? I hope that all group members in a relative proximity will get the corruption or bounty. So far it sounds like Steven and the team, have considered all types of players and asking the community this question solidifies this in my mind! Keep up the good work and let us in Alpha… lol

Xenotor

No, Risk and reward is the biggest pillar of Ashes, removing that will hurt all those who backed the project for its promise.

Also:
Isn't there already an XP buff for being in a group?
Why not do that for gathering yield as well.

For every person in a party there is an X% Yield increase while gathering, while being within Y range of another.
(Range needs to be large enough that people can separate somewhat to gather at different spots within the same area.)
This way gatherers group up for both protection and yield.

Its one thing to hunt down a solo gatherer, its another to face against a group of 8.

Would be nice to see someone PK a gatherer, only to be suddenly hunted by his 7 team mates who where nearby.

----

Another idea is to mark the killer and everyone who looted.
I can see someone PKing a gatherer and his out of party friend loots the stuff to not risk it with corruption.

So mark everyone who looted from the corpse and the killer off-course for X amount of time.

The gather, his party, guild & family should be see the mark in form of a red arrow above the persons head.
Not on the map or mini map but if they see them , they see the mark.
If they kill the marked person, they 100% drop all what they took from the gatherer plus the usual stuff.




As for corruption to all who looted?
that's a bad idea.
I would just PK a gatherer and let the loot on the ground.
My team mates would hide and wait for someone to pick up the stuff, the new corrupted would then be killed while we would gain more loot.

Eyrate

Keeping it simple, there are enough items to possibly be robbed of when killed. I se no reason for gatherable items to be among them. Realistically (DUH), would most corpse robbers bother with them? Some players it's all about the crafting. Why rob them of their fun? Take their tools, but not the materials. Also, I think that once a player "tags" a gatherable, it should have a timer, 10 min or so, before a PVPer can harvest that same spot. This might decrease any griefer's motivation. I hate being in the middle of picking flowers only to have some murderous goon knock me upside the head and steal my sweet smelling tulips!

Ace1234

Everyone keeps saying "no stop its supposed to be risk/reward". Risk/reward doesn't mean everything is high risk. It means there is a ratio between the two- if they provide an alternative option that is made to be low risk, it just means there needs to be low reward, to maintain this philosophy.

Vyril

My simplest point of view.

Contestable gathering nodes, and when fighting drop resources.

Over-thinking ends up just putting to many layers that turn away risk vs reward.

StrickenII

If gathering isn't semi-instanced like in FF14 where everyone gathers their own things and it doesn't impede others, then make gathering PVP enabled. I hate bots or other people hoarding and ninja'ing resource spawns when I'm the one that is clearing to them. Will fight for mats.

CCC_HAN

In my opinion, the solution is pretty simple: add a drop chance based on the rarity of the item. The more value the item has, the lower the drop chance.

Based on the current system: 50%-100%-400%

Tier 0 Items 100%
Tier 1 Items 80%
Tier 2 Items 60%
Tier 3 Items 40%
Tier 4 Items 20%
Tier 5 Items 15%
Tier 6 Items 5-10%
% obviously could be different. T0-t3 also could have a 100% chance.
This is something that needs to be tested.

Based on a stack of (for example) t6 - 250 wood, you would have a 5-10% chance of losing part of the stack item (based on your mark/flag 50-100-400%). This is done individually for each item/stack in your inventory.

Imo this system would be great. Imagine you expect to get only normal materials and maybe 1-2 "rare once and then boom you get a t6 one. People would be much more excited to get proper loot.

Charlie Ashwood

I know you guys are well aware you can't please everyone. I just skimmed the responses already and it is clear there are many conflicting opinions. I feel above all you should stick to the risk vs reward mantra you are building AoC with. That is the community you have drawn in. So I suggest to NOT make an alternative "safe" option where someone can gather entirely without risk of being attacked and robbed. That would undermine the whole feel of Verra being a harsh, dangerous world. If someone wants that experience they can play the countless other mmos that allow for that. I say that as someone who is very interested in the gathering professions. I want to play AoC because of your goals of making the world feel thrilling through constant risk. I would look forward to playing AoC as a gatherer for that very reason. As a gatherer I will be good at PvP so I won't be an easy target. If I am going to harvest a very rare material I will have to plan for it by either being sneaky or bringing along guild mates to assure it is safely brought to market. Maybe our guild would schedule gathering expeditions where groups go out together to gather rare materials. That situation itself is game content! That's fun! And all you have to do is balance your corruption system and let the players create that situation!

Also, someone mentioned the idea of gaining religious blessings of protection. I actually LOVE this idea. Not to make it 100% safe but to curb the penalty of being robbed. An example of what it could look like: I pray to the Forest Goddess before I go out to forage, fish or hunt. I gain a blessing where maybe I get a small increase to the amount I harvest from one source (or a slight increase to double harvest from a source) and a small decrease to the amount of those same materials that someone can loot off my body if I die. This would have to require a sacrifice though. As in I could only have one blessing at a time so I would have to choose wisely which blessing I have for my trip. Not sure what y'all have planned for religions and blessings but just an idea.

Still loving everything you are doing! Thank you for making my dream game!

BrianDaddy

prymortal wrote: »

tl:Dr When players lose items they stop playing. Seen time & time again in other games. Lot of forum actives claim otherwise but are often first to leave due to it.

PVP - flag system is a pathetic joke because you need to flag to lose less items, that is not risk vs reward, that is put bluntly lazy devs trying to force a gameplay loop. It is literally just LOSS & i'll prove it.
I have no items, I flag, I kill you. No risk, But rewarded.
You have items, You don't flag or even if you do flag, you die, Major loss due to major risk. (don't forget the time & effort, Also combat against mobs to clear the area On Top)
So yes this needs to be rethought out.
*Oh but reputation - Meme not one cares.
*Oh but corruption - Meme no one cares, because you will already be in a area capable to earning it off.
*oh but *insert here any excuse = MeME! Because look harder!
So add a harsher penalty to GatherGankers? - No, Why? It literally wont change a thing that would be the same as not having a system in place, in the first place. .e.t.c

So we come to Mitigating the loss of gathering must be earned someone said earlier. I agree. Skill, progression level unlock, but in no way related to PVP.
It doesn't need to even be a skill to *Not drop items, a Return teleport would literally solve this issue, while keeping high risk. you get caught, well you get caught, But this gives Gankers the Risk of not catching you. So at least some risk for them...meme risk still, but more than planned.

My concern is even though I am right, Bots will abuse any easy system.

I was agreeing with you all the way until you said a teleport. Naw....