Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
I think you can loot yourself, but it does create some questions around the possibility of mob training someone. Like could I round up mobs in an area, run to a player, crush them with the mobs, then loot them? Perhaps mob related deaths should have a specific rule set? Might need some testing.
Gathering Guilds
Instead add a gathering guild that can offset some losses. You pay the guild for membership and get re-imbursed based off your credit with them up to a certain amount of re-imbursement money. This could help run rep quests as well for gatherers of a node.
Religion
Also a religion catering towards crafters and gatherers that magically put things back in your bag that could of been looted on random choice of item restored into bag. So bob who killed luke gets a random chance to keep one or a few stacks/items.
I think first and foremost ALL players starting this game need to understand what this game is. PVP, with risks...
Any mitigation would need to be cost effective for the gatherer to be able to use it, yet not so easy as to get rid of all risk completely.
@Goalid What about when those quarter of resources just happen to be your entire stack of rare loot that drops from the loot source? RNGesus takes away player agency, its about risk vs reward but if 1 day im mining and ive managed to get 100 hardened wood from farming a forest for 2 hours, then some dude kills me and i just so happen to lose the 100 stack of wood? Nah thats garbage, implementing an item to store a small number of resources, or scaling the likelihood of the drop, back with the likelihood of the original drop chance makes sense.
That feels more to me like one of those annoying 'unfriendly loops' that, while it doesn't necessarily make players quit, is another thing in the 'Whoops, all Penalties!' pile for gameplay.
Players who start early will get their skill up faster so that even at-level opponents who can consistently beat them won't get as much drops. But it's gathering. You have to gather to level it, right?
So 'you have to go out there and do the frustrating thing so that you can slowly gain enough skill to be less frustrated by it later'? At that point there are so many other games that have equally 'annoying' loops. If we thought everything was going to be fine (and some do), then we wouldn't care about this anyway, and if we don't, then adding bonuses to those who gather the most, seems to be the exact opposite of the game's design.
It's just another non-engaging stopgap. "Do X thing until something passively changes."
But worst from the economic side is that IF we assume that all players get attacked and lose equally on average, then this just says 'high level gatherers are innately more profitable than low level (good) because they are at less risk (bad, imo)'.
At least if the high level gatherer is going into a high level area to be more profitable, their risk probably increased. With a level-based or even gear-based system for mitigating drops, monopolizing more common resources against new players (who can't even kill you) would be even worse than it already will be.
And if we think Common Resources won't be worth gathering in that way, we have other problems.
They could make it so that you drop 25% of each stack of materials on you, not just leave which mats drop up to RNG. But I don't see the problem with one or two protected item slots in your inventory, unless the system is like how you're imagining it. I gather for an hour and receive 95% low tier wood, but also get 5% rare item procs which I keep protected in those item slots. Then the incentive for PvP is dramatically lowered. I hope the gathering system is more like Star Wars Galaxies anyways, so hopefully it's not like that. And would you think that's a good system when guilds are PvPing over world boss drops? I think those might have to drop automatically if you die before you make it to town.
They should drop all of the loot from the nodes they farmed, but not their gear. This would force the player to have a true risk behind gathering. This may seem a tad aggressive, but at the same time will affect the economy and price of goods in game.
Currently the gathering system balance hinges on the corruption system being effective, but in the case where corruption is not a strong enough deterrant it will fall apart and the experience will be unenjoyable for everyone who isn't an existing or hardcore player.
Possible Solution
- Elite NPC highway guard patrols along developed roads, number of patrols/frequency based on node level.
- Gathering NPC factions working near late-stage nodes, perhaps in the form of a small logging camp that has simple guards.
- --- Further to the above, perhaps a player system to set-up a temporary gathering plot, paying other players to guard: mining quarry/logging camp/fishing area.
This system offers the following benefits:
1. Late-stage nodes feel more impactful.
2. Main roads become safer, but not entirely safe (These are not backroads, they should feel safer; roads aren't cheap.)
3. Gatherer's will be able to harvest basic materials along the route, this route will likely be picked clean, but it gives new players a safe option and more casual players a chance to gather some materials.
4. More competitive players will go further afield to gather more resources with less people competing other gathering nodes.
I don't think it's adding more grief to gatherers. Every other aspect of the game has to deal with it. Why do you feel that the gatherers should have grief removed that others still have to deal with? Not a shot just a question.
I am not saying remove risk altogether. No, but gatherers are doing most of the work in the entire crafting pipeline. It is significant active time investment and you are giving other players power to take 50% of the grind session by one won pvp. That is in my opinion way too much and it will only encourage cheap ganking.
I don't agree that you need to have such hardcore consequences to have balanced risk / reward.
I am assuming that materials will be stored in inventory in stacks and when one stack is full another slot will be filling up until its capped. So I propose that on death there is chance of multiple stacks that could drop only some % of their value.
So if you don't fight back and you don't have some other gathering equipment that could help mitigate it, you will have 30% chance of dropping 50% of one stack, then 10% chance of dropping 30% of second stack and so on. When you fight back percentages are lower. When you equip something that could mitigate it, the % is lower. The equipment that helps mitigate the % of drop could be trade-of of some sort. And let's say you could craft some legendary bag that could have few low capacity slots that are safe from dropping.
I just don't see how is the risk / reward balanced if someone is farming and then you get killed by higher lvl player that focuses mainly on pvp. If you get killed by pve that's kind of ok, but imho in pvp it is not balanced to lose huge amount of work in one pvp.
I get it, AoC is niche MMO but it doesn't have to be that hardcore to have fulfilling risk / reward.
BTW I used to play Lineage2 and holy sh*t I hate losing exp on death
I think overall it is dropping mats is a system that reinforces the risk/reward element of the game that makes it so enticing....and corruption serves to prevent this from being too abusive.
I agree with the encouraging grouping but I still think it is a lot of loss. It's not like you need to constantly think about getting a group, sometimes it is good to go solo. I am advocating for some healthy balance.
If anyone can loot the ash pile, I would make it so that mobs can also loot it, at the very least the intelligent ones, and add it to their inventory. PvE and PvP deaths should be as little different as possible, and not to the whim of random passing player sampling ash piles here and there as Lister freshly out of temporal stasis (for the Red Dwarf fans out there
If I can't destroy stuff on the go and only drop it, I'll carry a lot of junk to drop as I flee. A merry chase of is-it-good-or-only-a-half-eaten-muffin? Enough to slow the pursuit.
As for real options for mitigating losses...
1) Buying time limited insurances. Covering an additional x% of resources to not drop on death. Death brings the timer to 0. If no death occurred during the protection period, no refund. Part of the cost of business.
2) Booby-trapping your bag. High damage explosion to anyone other than yourself opening the bag. Takes inventory space. Higher risks to anyone pilfering. Would become the norm rather fast though.
So I say ok, let's leave in place. But let's also add to it.
Intrepid can add a system that let's gatherers, refiners and crafters blacklist PKers from buying any of their wares, directly or indirectly, in perpetuity, until the gatherer, refiner or crafter decided to lift the ban.
That would include buying anything from a third party who had bought something from the original crafter/owner.
This blacklist could include families and guilds and would be account wide to include alts and prevent them from working around the system.
This would counter the risk to the gatherer by adding to the risk of the PKer.
You can take part of my materials today but lose out on the sword that only I can craft tomorrow and every day after.
edit: these would be non-equipped and/or non-bound items Basically if it can be sold as is not equipped a mat of a broken version is dropped
This thought train is most applicable in my opinion, I am a would be ganker, not griefer. I only play games to pvp, with that being said. Killing a lvl 5 who is picking basic herbs when I am lvl 50, should give me a massive corruption debuff, and put me on a bounty board for a while. However, If I face roll a lvl 50 player with comparable "Item lvl /stats/ect" Flagged or unflagged I should get a good chunk of their goods/gold. Less if they are flagged more if they are trying to hide behind the Walmart bubble of "its not fair" The fucking Middle Ages were not fair nor is life. GTFO it! To me this forces a player to be skilled at the game in order to be able to craft "the best shit" as Steven says. TO MANY times in other games, I see crafters/farmers with HUGE stacks of currency and resources which allows them to outpace a lot of other people as far as gear progression. But they are absolute "Dog shit" at the game and couldn't protect themself form more than one mob at a time.
Sytems are the key to it being fun. NOT changing the amount dropped or forcing players to hire guards. Put guards on road that are impactful. Not unkillable but make you think twice before you pull one. Make the bounty systems challenging and rewarding. So many games the PVP currency is useless except shit cosmetics. GIMME GOLD for hunting down a scumbag. Make people want to sign up to go protect the main roads or to "heal "gathering parties. Maybe make areas that are rich in nodes like shit is in real life... Hey this area has 200 good trees, or that area is full of diamonds in the rock. Let's build a group and all of us go out and collect as many recourses as we can and have safety in numbers. You know, kinda like how people did it before the modern era. I think the way most mmos do gathering is DUMB. walk 20 ft flower, walk ten more ore, 20 feet left, a tree to log. This is a lazy person's farm loop and REALLY boring. I have utter confidence you guys will get it close and fine tune it in alpha.
Losing gold vs losing mats seems easier to balance. At any random time, this flower is worth 3g and that one is worth 150. Dude farmed that stack of 150g flower a week ago when it was 50g value, but a Node upgraded and now everyone needs it to make more copium drinks and the price has gone up. But you kill him today and clean house. That's pretty raw dog if you ask me and a little too harsh. Nobody wants to constantly have to inventory their bags and compare prices before they run to do shit. "oh shit! hold on guys I have to run to the bank before I rescue you from getting ganked and drop of my lvl 700 ruby studded golden wood shavings. I don't want to lose them to pvp fight".... that sounds like a massive pain in the ass. Sry for the scatter brain rant been watching to many Narc videos. Shout to the guy he cracks me up and blast truth about how mmo's can be better.
Also:
Isn't there already an XP buff for being in a group?
Why not do that for gathering yield as well.
For every person in a party there is an X% Yield increase while gathering, while being within Y range of another.
(Range needs to be large enough that people can separate somewhat to gather at different spots within the same area.)
This way gatherers group up for both protection and yield.
Its one thing to hunt down a solo gatherer, its another to face against a group of 8.
Would be nice to see someone PK a gatherer, only to be suddenly hunted by his 7 team mates who where nearby.
----
Another idea is to mark the killer and everyone who looted.
I can see someone PKing a gatherer and his out of party friend loots the stuff to not risk it with corruption.
So mark everyone who looted from the corpse and the killer off-course for X amount of time.
The gather, his party, guild & family should be see the mark in form of a red arrow above the persons head.
Not on the map or mini map but if they see them , they see the mark.
If they kill the marked person, they 100% drop all what they took from the gatherer plus the usual stuff.
As for corruption to all who looted?
that's a bad idea.
I would just PK a gatherer and let the loot on the ground.
My team mates would hide and wait for someone to pick up the stuff, the new corrupted would then be killed while we would gain more loot.
Contestable gathering nodes, and when fighting drop resources.
Over-thinking ends up just putting to many layers that turn away risk vs reward.
Also, someone mentioned the idea of gaining religious blessings of protection. I actually LOVE this idea. Not to make it 100% safe but to curb the penalty of being robbed. An example of what it could look like: I pray to the Forest Goddess before I go out to forage, fish or hunt. I gain a blessing where maybe I get a small increase to the amount I harvest from one source (or a slight increase to double harvest from a source) and a small decrease to the amount of those same materials that someone can loot off my body if I die. This would have to require a sacrifice though. As in I could only have one blessing at a time so I would have to choose wisely which blessing I have for my trip. Not sure what y'all have planned for religions and blessings but just an idea.
Still loving everything you are doing! Thank you for making my dream game!
I was agreeing with you all the way until you said a teleport. Naw....