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Having black powder weapons added to the game(Powder, Boomsticks and DAKKA)

KRissCHuKRissCHu Member, Founder, Kickstarter
I post this question in the Q&A for August's stream and informed that the devs currently do not have plans on reversing their decision to not implement black powder weapons into the game, but also got the advice to start a discussion on it, and if the feedback from it was satisfactory, maybe this change could be made, so I am doing so now. Feedback on this topic would be greatly appreciated and I hope the Intrepid team will reconsider on this matter.

Reason For The Request
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I do not know how many people here can relate, but Lineage 2 was my first MMO and despite never doing anything actually viable in it, since as a kid I had no idea what "dungeoning or raids" were, and just ran around the open world I grew to intensely love that game. Its systems, story and world were enough to captivate my interests, due to which I am very happy that Steven and the team are using it as inspiration for Ashes Of Creation.

A while back I tried returning to it, now that I was more knowledgeable on MMOs and as I did so I began to wonder "Considering the nonsense the dwarfs can make, why aren't there smaller versions of them that are handheld?", e.g. why were there no black powder weapons in the game, despite the fact that they would be perfectly fitting and would make sense in the setting.

It was a strange thought for me to have, since I wasn't really interested in black powder weapons at the time, but some time after that I came across something which further enhanced my interest in them: Warhammer Fantasy
(the OG, we do not speak of the ET[bar the Vermintide games] or AoS here)
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The setting's aesthetic is immensely alluring, "Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!" is hype, and the various gun wielding troops look kick ass. And admittedly, this is an aesthetic, which I believe would become very popular in the game, should it be implemented.

That is when I got to thinking, is there an "in world reason" for Ashes to not have black powder weapons in it and I was not able to find anything that would contradict that. Given the "potion launcher" will be a thing, as well as probably cannons on ships for naval content, since I doubt the naval experience will be crowned by onagers and balista, what would be the problem of swapping the potions for ammunition and making hand held sized versions of those weapons? It doesn't ruin the fantasy of the setting, as Warhammer can clearly prove, it gives an extra avenue for crafters to pursue - gun smithing, and it is another niche that can attract more players to it. If New World can bait people with the promise of pike and shot era goodies, why not make it better m i rite guys?

With that reasoning presented, I'd like to give you all
The Pitch
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I have pondered the topic of how black powder weapons can be implemented for a while now and I have identified three separate ways in which that can be done:

The World Of Warcraft Model:
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Where essentially there is no real difference between ranged weapons, other than pure aesthetics and minutia of stats. One weapon type just goes "ca-thwuk" when you shoot it, while the other goes "BANG". It is a satisfactory solution for WoW itself, but looking back on it I personally do not find this completely satisfying.


The Vermintide Model:
hihi7dx8658h.png

In which the different weapons used affect the mobility of the character in game, as well as having different rates of fire, distance and the like. Where bows would have shorter range and less penetration than guns, but have more stable and consistent rate of fire and the ability to lob shots, while guns have longer range, greater penetration, but slower rate of fire and can only be used in a straight line. That's all fun and good...for a FPS game with no tab targeting. So as nice as it may be, the gameplay model of an MMO is simply not fitting for it.

The Cooldown Model:
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(I couldn't think of any viable art to look up that illustrates the point, closest thing that came to mind was the limited ammo use of the BFG in Doom.)

Admittedly, this is the option I favor the most. To describe it:

A black powder weapon will be a piece of gear that does not function as a main weapon, but instead as an addon.

Essentially, on your character equipment screen you will have one extra slot that is separate from the rest of the gear, in which you can put items with separate effects, which are then added as an ability on your action bar, with their own individual cooldown. If you want to you can make them class restricted, but I think it would be great for everyone to have access to black powder weapons. And each gun works differently:

- A Blunderbuss(shotgun) can be a frontal cone damage, which can be used to cleave packs/aggro multiple mobs at a time.
- A rifle can be a single shot long range skill shot, which can be used for pulling mobs from afar, or in sieges there can be regimented formations exchanging volley fire, before charging at each other.
- A pistol can be a short range skill shot that does less damage, but can apply a debuff, like a slow, or a blind, or a stun, which lasts for like 1-2 seconds.
(All of these are just random ideas I've come up with, but I'd love to hear any others you guys might come up with.)

And each individual gun will have its own separate cooldown that does not affect any of your other cooldowns, which will represent your character taking time to reload the gun, since it is a black powder weapon and does not have a magazine. As an extra added layer to prevent it from just being "free damage", there will be gun ammo, specialized for each type of gun, so that if you don't have this piece of ammunition in your inventory the gun can not be used, making the gun ammo highly sought after, but making it can be difficult, so that there is not too much of an abundance of it out on the market.

TL:DR of this option: A cooldown with different effects, based on the gun, which plays around a limited resource.

Conclusion

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This has been my reasoning for bringing up this topic(mainly aesthetics) and suggestions on how to have black powder weapons implemented. I am genuinely convinced that it would be an amazing mechanic to have present, even it is just for looking fancy. huffs copium

With this, I would like to ask you all for your opinions on the matter. What do you think of the above mentioned ideas? Do you have any of your own you'd like to suggest? Will the devs actually reconsider? XD

I look forward to reading your comments!

Hail The Sandals

Comments

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    KRissCHu wrote: »
    A while back I tried returning to it, now that I was more knowledgeable on MMOs and as I did so I began to wonder "Considering the nonsense the dwarfs can make, why aren't there smaller versions of them that are handheld?", e.g. why were there no black powder weapons in the game, despite the fact that they would be perfectly fitting and would make sense in the setting.
    They added guns later. It looks awful. Doubt that gunpowder ones would've been much better.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYVknVyfLHE
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    That's what Potion Launchers are for. If we get hand-held versions.
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    GrandHarfangGrandHarfang Member
    edited September 2022
    Considering ships will most likely have cannons, I don't know why this couldn't be done. In fact, it would establish lorewise that gunpowder technology exists. Handheld firearms are only a logical application of this technology.
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    Cannons for ships are a must if you ask me.

    Cannons for sieges? Yeah, would definetly be great.

    Hand-cannons? Yes, if done well it would be great (well, you can say this about anything and everything).

    I think they could fit a very unique role as a very slow firing weapon with high damage. Maybe high splash damage?
    Maybe make them very hard to reload to limit them futher, maybe unable to reload in melee range?

    But yeah I'd like to see them all.

    Maybe in an expansion?

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    Ships will use potion launchers instead of canons. They use arcane arts instead of gun powder.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guns_and_gunpowder
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    NiKr wrote: »
    Ships will use potion launchers instead of canons. They use arcane arts instead of gun powder.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guns_and_gunpowder

    I see! Thank you for the link
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    KRissCHu wrote: »
    I post this question in the Q&A for August's stream and informed that the devs currently do not have plans on reversing their decision to not implement black powder weapons into the game, but also got the advice to start a discussion on it, and if the feedback from it was satisfactory, maybe this change could be made, so I am doing so now. Feedback on this topic would be greatly appreciated and I hope the Intrepid team will reconsider on this matter.
    Unexpected changes are being done in the game lately.
    It makes me wonder why.
    Also why gun powder is not allowed?
    Or why some players want it?

    From game-play point of view potions have the advantage that
    - can trigger different effects
    - different effects require different materials and recipes
    - the potion has lower travel speed until the target, giving time for some counter
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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    I personally don't like gunpowder type weapons in my high fantasy games. The theme of guns tends to conflict with the "high fantasy" part. Just my opinion though.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ship cannons will be Potion Launchers; not gunpowder.
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    Moar dakka for the boiiis!
    The old world is dying, the new world struggles to be born, now is the time of monsters.
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    Please no.
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    SolmyrSolmyr Member
    edited September 2022
    I'd be down for black powder stuff, but they've made it pretty clear that they want to do something different with the world's tech by making it more magic-based.

    If they really delve into the mechanics of the magic system and design weapons and contraptions based on that, in addition to magical versions of real tech, then I'd be pretty stoked. But if they just remake cannons and guns with fancier VFX, then they may as well have just gone with traditional firearms.
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    Ships will have cannons that shoot potions or whatever, there's nothing stopping Intrepid from adding similar wielding weapons down the road, Verra just won't have black powder for whatever reason they don't want to, no big deal to be honest.
    🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
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    ariatrasariatras Member, Founder
    No thank you. I prefer a more magic-based system.

    Gunpowder will be too game-ey.
    If not:
    Reload will be very long
    Won't work when conditions are too wet
    The gunpowder you carry or have at locations is liable to explode when near fire, which seems a bit ill-advised in a world where people can magically create and sling fire.
    If you carry gunpowder in one of those flasks you can't carry all that much.
    Limited amount of shots before the gun becomes too hot to handle and the barrel loses integrity
    Accuracy degradation over time.

    I'm sure there's more, but this is just from the top of my head real quick.

    Now, I will enjoy the tactical aspect of exploding powder kegs and having strike teams go for logistic hubs.
    But most of these sound like shitty things for a game, especially a siege (so much down time)

    And if you gamify them, it essentially will just become a bow, like in World of Warcraft (one of the images you used)

    So, neat, but I don't think it'll mix too well with high fantasy.
    l8im8pj8upjq.gif


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    NO! Let me have a high fantasy game with a high fantasy setting. If I want guns, I'll go back to CS:GO.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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    One of the problems with adding guns or blackpowder devices is developers end up moving into a "steampunk" scenario (lots of brass this or that to allow the weapons a place in the game) which conflicts with a high fantasy environment of weapons and magic only. That mix of styles may ruin some of the wonderful environments they have already shown.
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