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Immersion ideas - Node appearances, hidden player levels, discovered crafting.....

TheDavideTheDavide Member
edited September 2022 in General Discussion
Hello, I've always immersed myself in the world of MMOs starting from Runescape when I was 7 years old to the games of today like New World and Lost Ark. Not going to lie I missed the glory days of WoW and a lot of other MMOs due to lack of money and having a credit card as a kid. Because of this I've always thought of different things I would add to an MMO if I were ever able to design one (a lot of these ideas were inspired off anime too).

First I would just like to clarify that I have no experience in coding and would not recommend any changes that would significantly harm the progress of develop. These are only ideas I've thought up over the years that I'm hoping might inspire changes either now or at a later date.

1. Node appearances:
This is pretty straight forward and is just a straight up recommendation for a change based on watching youtubers playing the alpha and reviewing Ashes. I love how when nodes level the appearance mimics the design of the race that contributed most to the recent level. What I think is weird is how the entire appearance of the node changes. I think it would look more natural if only the new buildings that appear change appearance and that any buildings built in that phase also take the appearance of the highest contributing race. Would definitely make for more dynamic cities and show the history of contribution.

2. Making things hidden:
This comes from an inspiration of SAO and Black Summoner but I love the idea of not knowing everything. In SAO no one knows the level of another character period and in Black Summoner the characters require an "appraisal" skill of different tiers (from D-S) to be able to determine their opponents strength, gear and unique skills. I think this would be a neat addition to the immersion of the game and would make people think twice before engaging gathers, caravans, GvGs, etc. This could also be introduced for items found in the world so that legendary items are unknown entities and aren't so easily used.

3. Crafting:
Keeping on the theme of hidden this would apply to crafting and processing items. If crafted items like weapons, armor, potions, etc., are going to be a big part of the game then making recipes hidden might make for an interesting experience. An example of this would be having hidden requirements for smelting a harder material, something like having a certain proficiency in the softer material before it, mixing the right amount of each ingredient, having the furnace at the right temperature (certain woods sustain certain temperatures), etc.... This adds another element of discovery to the game which would make craft strong new potions, weapons and armor all the more rewarding. It would also encourage artisans to focus on specific crafts to be the first and best of their kind while also allowing groups or guilds to work together to new discoveries in the pursuit of wealth and knowledge. (This one was inspired by the anime Log Horizon)

4. Discovered abilities:
This one might be a little contentious but also having skills/abilities hidden might be an interesting mechanic as well. Meaning certain button combinations or actions unlock different abilities. For example taunting in a fight might unlock the taunt ability for tanks (btw I think this should be a PvP ability as well to give tanks a bigger role basically forcing a number of people in a certain area to focus them). You could also do this for the mutation skills where casting skills at a certain time could cause the development of a new spell or new skill. Of course there would be other requirements too (like level requirements) that could cause attempts to backfire or fizzle out if they're not met.

Again I would just like to reiterate that are recommendations and that I have no experience developing a video game so I realize that this straight up just might not be possible.

If you do like these ideas I've got a tones more like a legacy/family system to develop new characters you can play, node changes and the NPC population importance (how its affected by wars, taxes, etc), and my favorite one unique quest lines and world events. Happy to share!

Comments

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    This is related to your crafting idea:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3KJik8a3VU

    A gamified version that is somewhat creative interpretation of physical processes with some original gameplay ideas built in would be pretty great.

    Simulation is good inspiration. Requires a certain degree of mastery.
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    A gamified version that is somewhat creative interpretation of physical processes with some original gameplay ideas built in would be pretty great.

    100% agree agree, this is a great example of a hidden system that could be gamified! Thanks for sharing this.
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    @TheDavide
    If you do like these ideas I've got a tones more like a legacy/family system to develop new characters you can play, node changes and the NPC population importance (how its affected by wars, taxes, etc), and my favorite one unique quest lines and world events. Happy to share!


    Cool ideas- I'd be interested in hearing whatver you got.
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    Ace1234 wrote: »
    @TheDavide
    I'd be interested in hearing whatver you got.

    I'll make a part 2 post now
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    SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited September 2022
    TheDavide wrote: »
    1. Node appearances:
    This is pretty straight forward and is just a straight up recommendation for a change based on watching youtubers playing the alpha and reviewing Ashes. I love how when nodes level the appearance mimics the design of the race that contributed most to the recent level. What I think is weird is how the entire appearance of the node changes. I think it would look more natural if only the new buildings that appear change appearance and that any buildings built in that phase also take the appearance of the highest contributing race. Would definitely make for more dynamic cities and show the history of contribution.

    A lot of people agree with you on this one. Sadly, I think the last we've heard is still that all buildings will use the racial appearance from the last levelup.
    TheDavide wrote: »
    2. Making things hidden:
    This comes from an inspiration of SAO and Black Summoner but I love the idea of not knowing everything. In SAO no one knows the level of another character period and in Black Summoner the characters require an "appraisal" skill of different tiers (from D-S) to be able to determine their opponents strength, gear and unique skills. I think this would be a neat addition to the immersion of the game and would make people think twice before engaging gathers, caravans, GvGs, etc. This could also be introduced for items found in the world so that legendary items are unknown entities and aren't so easily used.

    The problem with this, is that it's double-edged. If someone is moving in to attack you, you have no idea whether you should run or fight back. It would make gatherers have to think twice before trying to defend themselves or their spot (and maybe lose their work so far), and make that risk calculation much harder than the other side's "eh, I'm a PvPer with an empty inventory. I'll be stronger than most people who focus seriously on gathering, and even if not...".
    TheDavide wrote: »
    3. Crafting:
    Keeping on the theme of hidden this would apply to crafting and processing items. If crafted items like weapons, armor, potions, etc., are going to be a big part of the game then making recipes hidden might make for an interesting experience. An example of this would be having hidden requirements for smelting a harder material, something like having a certain proficiency in the softer material before it, mixing the right amount of each ingredient, having the furnace at the right temperature (certain woods sustain certain temperatures), etc.... This adds another element of discovery to the game which would make craft strong new potions, weapons and armor all the more rewarding. It would also encourage artisans to focus on specific crafts to be the first and best of their kind while also allowing groups or guilds to work together to new discoveries in the pursuit of wealth and knowledge. (This one was inspired by the anime Log Horizon)

    The problem with hiding things like recipes and requirements in the Age of Wiki, is that they'll be figured out and then become simply an annoyance to everyone but the first pioneers which forces them to leave the game, break immersion, and get into the habit of looking things up. I don't feel this is healthy for the game, and I don't believe it can properly achieve the goal, either.
    TheDavide wrote: »
    4. Discovered abilities:
    This one might be a little contentious but also having skills/abilities hidden might be an interesting mechanic as well. Meaning certain button combinations or actions unlock different abilities. For example taunting in a fight might unlock the taunt ability for tanks (btw I think this should be a PvP ability as well to give tanks a bigger role basically forcing a number of people in a certain area to focus them). You could also do this for the mutation skills where casting skills at a certain time could cause the development of a new spell or new skill. Of course there would be other requirements too (like level requirements) that could cause attempts to backfire or fizzle out if they're not met.

    This is the same problem, where in the Age of Wiki. Even though you could also unlock things organically, 'accidentally', you would put "being competent at your class" behind either "playing exactly the way the devs expected, assuming they made the unlock conditions fully intuitive" OR "having to look up the conditions and then grind them out". This will work for some people, but there are a lot of people that it won't work for, and those people will be stuck in the same place. Learning to look things up to progress. This one isn't as bad as the recipe scenario, but it's not great either.
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    @SongRune All great points of contention I think, allow me to respond.

    1. Makes me sad but I'm assuming this is for good reason on the dev side.

    2. That's kind of the point of this one, the level of anonymity or unknown adds to the thrill. Although I might agree that a seasoned PvP might have the edge in experience a trade skiller or artisan may have the upper hand in terms of gear... you never know. There is already a decision or degree of uncertainty that someone will have when deciding whether to defend themselves, and consequently drop less resources, this just adds a new level of immersion where you don't just know everything off the bat or being able to know would be locked behind a skill.

    3. I 100% agree that in the age of Wiki's that this will slowly fade as a mechanic. But this adds a level of excitement, at least initially, to new discoveries and can give nodes, players and guilds the upper hand and encourage experimentation of new ideas and exploration for new materials. Anyone who would leave to game and break immersion as you call it would do that anyways and it will always be a reality of the age of information and the internet. But a mechanic like this allows for infinite progression and expansion to the game and trade skilling without having to outright announce changes. I don't know about you but I would be hella excited to be the one to discover how to craft with a legendary material that's drop by a named monster into a legendary weapon.

    4. This one is definitely a bit trickier and I agree with your points here. Where as with crafting there is a degree of excitement and tolerance for trying new things to maximize profit within those players, PvPers are a whole other breed. In a culture of min-maxing I also feel like players wouldn't enjoy investing their time into the unknowns and would ultimately see this as a waste of time. But the situation I imagine is being able to discover an ability for a PvPer that no one has come across before, something that hasn't been countered yet or accounted for. Imagine the "WTF was that" moment to come out of that... as someone who leans toward the artisan professions this sounds extremely enticing to me. But again definitely agree with your concerns.

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    SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited September 2022
    TheDavide wrote: »
    1. Makes me sad but I'm assuming this is for good reason on the dev side.

    Keep on it! If we keep them aware that the community is interested, they'll have it in mind in case they get further into the node appearance design and realize it's more practical than they thought.
    TheDavide wrote: »
    2. That's kind of the point of this one, the level of anonymity or unknown adds to the thrill. Although I might agree that a seasoned PvP might have the edge in experience a trade skiller or artisan may have the upper hand in terms of gear... you never know. There is already a decision or degree of uncertainty that someone will have when deciding whether to defend themselves, and consequently drop less resources, this just adds a new level of immersion where you don't just know everything off the bat or being able to know would be locked behind a skill.

    While I agree that this might be more thrilling or add intrigue in some circumstances, it will have a strong chilling effect on PvP (in part because said gatherers will be more or less required to always run, just in case). I'm not sure that's healthy for AoC, but I do see your perspective.
    TheDavide wrote: »
    3. I 100% agree that in the age of Wiki's that this will slowly fade as a mechanic. But this adds a level of excitement, at least initially, to new discoveries and can give nodes, players and guilds the upper hand and encourage experimentation of new ideas and exploration for new materials. Anyone who would leave to game and break immersion as you call it would do that anyways and it will always be a reality of the age of information and the internet. But a mechanic like this allows for infinite progression and expansion to the game and trade skilling without having to outright announce changes. I don't know about you but I would be hella excited to be the one to discover how to craft with a legendary material that's drop by a named monster into a legendary weapon.

    I don't perceive that people will spend a lot of time wasting ingredients to try unknown random recipes (if you can lose ingredients this way). On the other side, I see this as either a chore, or (if the recipes may in fact provide a meaningful advantage) something that people (highly competitive guilds in particular) will just be incentivized to write bots for (and then use the working recipes on their main accounts later). "Try XXYZ. Try XXZX. Try XXZY. Try XXZZ." is prime bot material.
    TheDavide wrote: »
    4. This one is definitely a bit trickier and I agree with your points here. Where as with crafting there is a degree of excitement and tolerance for trying new things to maximize profit within those players, PvPers are a whole other breed. In a culture of min-maxing I also feel like players wouldn't enjoy investing their time into the unknowns and would ultimately see this as a waste of time. But the situation I imagine is being able to discover an ability for a PvPer that no one has come across before, something that hasn't been countered yet or accounted for. Imagine the "WTF was that" moment to come out of that... as someone who leans toward the artisan professions this sounds extremely enticing to me. But again definitely agree with your concerns.

    As a PvP gamer, I dislike this. It means that I am unable to find even fights. If we can both gear, build, and train to our peak forms, then my opponent and I can get a good fight in. If he had the luck to find one of these (if its well enough hidden to not be on the wiki), then I can't have a good fight based on skill and effort. Even if we both play really well, it's not an even match. The game is just "unbalanced", and probably not through lack of my effort, but through lack of my luck. It seems cool, and makes a great story or 'legend', but isn't actually that great for PvP play. It's a valid style of game, but not one that I prefer.
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    SongRune wrote: »
    While I agree that this might be more thrilling or add intrigue in some circumstances, it will have a strong chilling effect on PvP (in part because said gatherers will be more or less required to always run, just in case). I'm not sure that's healthy for AoC, but I do see your perspective.

    I still think this won't change much for gathers. Gatherers are going to run if they think they can get away either way and with the Karma system they'll always be making that decision between turning combatant or not.
    SongRune wrote: »
    I don't perceive that people will spend a lot of time wasting ingredients to try unknown random recipes (if you can lose ingredients this way). On the other side, I see this as either a chore, or (if the recipes may in fact provide a meaningful advantage) something that people (highly competitive guilds in particular) will just be incentivized to write bots for (and then use the working recipes on their main accounts later). "Try XXYZ. Try XXZX. Try XXZY. Try XXZZ." is prime bot material.

    Definitely see this as an issue, would require a lot of balancing discussion, maybe making discovery crafts more time consuming or expensive for example to mitigate bots but then that of course will always give an advantage to guilds or individuals with larger resource and account pools.
    SongRune wrote: »
    As a PvP gamer, I dislike this. It means that I am unable to find even fights. If we can both gear, build, and train to our peak forms, then my opponent and I can get a good fight in. If he had the luck to find one of these (if its well enough hidden to not be on the wiki), then I can't have a good fight based on skill and effort. Even if we both play really well, it's not an even match. The game is just "unbalanced", and probably not through lack of my effort, but through lack of my luck. It seems cool, and makes a great story or 'legend', but isn't actually that great for PvP play. It's a valid style of game, but not one that I prefer.

    Yup 100% agree with you, I think it would be a cool narrative idea but it comes down to just that. Balancing, min-maxing, and putting people on even ground which wouldn't be possible with this kind of system.
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    I do think hiding someone's level could be a good idea, but to avoid the loopholes people have suggested these are who could see who your level are:
    - Fellow guild and party members (As you can't attack each other, this info should be shared)
    - Players on your friends list (Why not? Friends don't murder each other and it helps you keep track of their game progress)
    - Corrupted and Combatant players (These are the ones who want to fight, so why shouldn't they show off their level?)

    This will mean if you want to start a fight against someone who is a non-combatant you won't be able to see their level, so do you engage? You could straight up take the risk or make yourself known then flag yourself. If the targets response is to flag back then you can decide for yourself if the flight is worth it by comparing their level and yours. If they run at you, then are they bluffing? If they run away and 'nope out' then they were likely lower level or just didn't want to fight.
    r7ldqg4wh0yj.gif
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    Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    TheDavide wrote: »
    SongRune wrote: »
    While I agree that this might be more thrilling or add intrigue in some circumstances, it will have a strong chilling effect on PvP (in part because said gatherers will be more or less required to always run, just in case). I'm not sure that's healthy for AoC, but I do see your perspective.

    I still think this won't change much for gathers. Gatherers are going to run if they think they can get away either way and with the Karma system they'll always be making that decision between turning combatant or not.
    SongRune wrote: »
    I don't perceive that people will spend a lot of time wasting ingredients to try unknown random recipes (if you can lose ingredients this way). On the other side, I see this as either a chore, or (if the recipes may in fact provide a meaningful advantage) something that people (highly competitive guilds in particular) will just be incentivized to write bots for (and then use the working recipes on their main accounts later). "Try XXYZ. Try XXZX. Try XXZY. Try XXZZ." is prime bot material.

    Definitely see this as an issue, would require a lot of balancing discussion, maybe making discovery crafts more time consuming or expensive for example to mitigate bots but then that of course will always give an advantage to guilds or individuals with larger resource and account pools.
    SongRune wrote: »
    As a PvP gamer, I dislike this. It means that I am unable to find even fights. If we can both gear, build, and train to our peak forms, then my opponent and I can get a good fight in. If he had the luck to find one of these (if its well enough hidden to not be on the wiki), then I can't have a good fight based on skill and effort. Even if we both play really well, it's not an even match. The game is just "unbalanced", and probably not through lack of my effort, but through lack of my luck. It seems cool, and makes a great story or 'legend', but isn't actually that great for PvP play. It's a valid style of game, but not one that I prefer.

    Yup 100% agree with you, I think it would be a cool narrative idea but it comes down to just that. Balancing, min-maxing, and putting people on even ground which wouldn't be possible with this kind of system.

    Could be interesting if there was a drop on death while equipped or something. Some way of making it pass around the world and not just locked to one lucky player
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