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Combat Argumentalists in the community..

SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Id like to understand you, you who argue about combat nonstop without actually engaging in any time of type game physics or engineering in your passion laced tirades.

I would like to give a very gentle encouraging thought that your feedback would be well received if what you're trying to convey made sense. Some of us who are not working at Intrepid at least make an honest attempt to understand game development enough to provide feedback that's precise as possible, so there are very little errors in communication.

To be frank, some of you read like you cannot be bothered to learn any basics of game development to articulate what you actually want to see, maybe you're deliberately arguing in bad faith... who really knows?

"I don't want to play a turret RNG fest or an FPS"

"Tab combat" can be engineered and coded to have very strict forward-facing parameters, it can be designed and coded in a way where players just can't click and shoot from any position with homing missiles. Calling "action combat" with "headshots" a first-person shooter is intellectually dishonest. Ashes will be in third person and it's not a shooter. To add to this, there are tab games with "headshots", Asherons Call is one of the first games that came to mind.

"X takes more skill"

Define "skill" for us, define "skill" where one combat system is greater than the other. If aiming and/or buttons to press both constitute a high skill ceiling, then Darkfall was among the highest skill ceiling of all. It had both buttons and aiming, you can look up the numbers to see how successful and well received it was. (hint: The combat alone wasn't good enough to carry the game and had a very niche player base)

After talking about "skill" with many of the players, most people cannot define "skill", rather they can only cite their preferences. Clarity on the skill(s) you are talking about would be a lot more helpful than banter.

"X system has more depth"

What do you mean? What are you saying? This really reads like, "I get more meaning out of X". I am trying to understand, but who wants to read through a wall of mostly fallacious, nonsensical, or poorly thought-out text rather than well thought out feedback and reasoning. Who has the time to accurately translate what you are trying to convey?

I would just like to ask, that you Combat Argumentalists go forth and become more precise in what you're trying to convey, instead of having arguments that require a mental scalpel and a dremel tool to extrapolate because they're so bloody tedious to read and understand clearly.

Thanks.



Comments

  • HighSpeedHotdogHighSpeedHotdog Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Solvryn wrote: »
    who wants to read through a wall of mostly fallacious, nonsensical, or poorly thought-out text because they're so bloody tedious to read and understand clearly.

    zi8qb1y1u7kl.gif
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 5
    Get off your high horse. If you have something to say say it. Spare people the "I'd like to understand" and the "thanks".

    I dont like what most people say about combat, coming from all shorts of backgrounds, but I dont pretend to teach them how to be better at giving feedback.

    It's simple rly:
    -Look up known info about AoC.
    -I dont like your bdo copy paste suggestions.

    These are normal reactions. The rest is pretentiousness.

    You are the one with the wall texts.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer

    I dont like what most people say about combat, coming from all shorts of backgrounds, but I dont pretend to teach them how to be better at giving feedback.

    I noticed.

    I don’t think it’s much to ask for detailed and honest talking points.

    Nor is it much to not want to see the same banter reduced into a thread.

    So maybe by putting effort, people articulate their points in a clearer manner.


  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    less generalizations, more hard observations.

    I'm trying.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • StreviStrevi Member
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Id like to understand you, you who argue about combat nonstop without actually engaging in any time of type game physics or engineering in your passion laced tirades.

    "I don't want to play a turret RNG fest or an FPS"

    "Tab combat" can be engineered and coded to have very strict forward-facing parameters, it can be designed and coded in a way where players just can't click and shoot from any position with homing missiles. Calling "action combat" with "headshots" a first-person shooter is intellectually dishonest. Ashes will be in third person and it's not a shooter. To add to this, there are tab games with "headshots", Asherons Call is one of the first games that came to mind.

    Can but not necessarily will be.
    And if it is, then is like automating the rotation, for immersion purpose, helping those who would otherwise mistakenly end up in wrong direction.
    Solvryn wrote: »
    "X takes more skill"

    Define "skill" for us, define "skill" where one combat system is greater than the other. If aiming and/or buttons to press both constitute a high skill ceiling, then

    Beside reacting fast and having to track and know what direction to face, the aiming with tab is like the auto aim added to help those with controllers, because only with mouse you can aim properly.
    Solvryn wrote: »
    "X system has more depth"

    What do you mean?

    What happens if you select somebody with tab targeting, and he goes beyond a wall or many players or NPCs?
    Remains selected?
    What happens if that player shapeshifts into another creature with a spell?
    This was my opinion a while back
    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/366409#Comment_366409

    What if becomes almost invisible (translucent) or has green armor and tries to blend into the green environment in background?
    One can imagine techniques to confuse the opponent which are possible only if the game does not select and keeps the target selected, assuming you would find it anyway by yourself.

    RPGs were once text based. You typed
    "open door"
    "enter room"
    "look around"
    "shoot evil wizard"
    Then mouse was invented.

    So I think those who want tab target, they actually want to have easier life as they would not be able to aim and hit jumping and side moving NPCs or players. This would render the game unfun for them.
    Those who want action can do all these and feel restrained by a tab targeting system. Just like willing to have keyboard and mouse instead of controllers.

    But until the game is released, the action combat people will be old enough and they'll be happy. The current tab target players will be dead.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Solvryn wrote: »
    To add to this, there are tab games with "headshots", Asherons Call is one of the first games that came to mind.
    How did they work? Cause my google skills were not enough to find info on that in a quick search.
  • DummoDummo Member
    edited October 5
    In my opinion skill consists of timing, comboing, dodging, blocking, positioning, aiming, counterattacking, knowing when to engage or retreat... Probably forgetting some aspects. It's basically anything you are able to do in a game. The more aspects they add, the more skillful it is. Ofcourse more does not necessarily mean better for the game.
    Dark Knight Dummo

    d681818dab4ff18eaec03b0dffa7a634.gif
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    To add to this, there are tab games with "headshots", Asherons Call is one of the first games that came to mind.
    How did they work? Cause my google skills were not enough to find info on that in a quick search.

    It had “High” , “Medium”, and “Low” attacks and then whatever was in that category as per anatomy would have a roll against it. You could forget to buff your armor and equipment it. Then if you got hit AGS against that part you’d take massive damage.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Solvryn wrote: »
    It had “High” , “Medium”, and “Low” attacks and then whatever was in that category as per anatomy would have a roll against it. You could forget to buff your armor and equipment it. Then if you got hit AGS against that part you’d take massive damage.
    Was it random? Skill based? Just directly targeted? Cause obviously Intrepid could just add a headshot mechanic to the game and give even tab abilities some way to hit it, while action hits could have a 100% to do so, if the person was skilled enough. Yet, they haven't still, even after all the "please make this a precision shooter game" requests.
  • Solvryn wrote: »
    Id like to understand you, you who argue about combat nonstop without actually engaging in any time of type game physics or engineering in your passion laced tirades.

    I would like to give a very gentle encouraging thought that your feedback would be well received if what you're trying to convey made sense. Some of us who are not working at Intrepid at least make an honest attempt to understand game development enough to provide feedback that's precise as possible, so there are very little errors in communication.

    You dont need to understand game development to give feedback. the same way you dont need to know medicine to go to a doctor and get treated, or know the law to get a lawyer to build your case. you dont tell your doctor what tests to run, and what medicine to prescribe. the same goes for game devs. its insulting and disrespectful. would u like us to come to your workplace and tell you how to do your job? would you like steven or any dev to tell how to do your job?

    when devs ask for feedback, they asks for whats fun, not fun, frustrating, too hard, too easy, etc, basically, or what cool features you would like to see in the game, unless they specifically ask for a solution. what does a non game dev know about player experience, game design patterns, etc, probably as much as a non doctor knows about medicine.

    with that being said, its perfectly valid to simply say " hey tab targetting feels dull or too easy (0 skills)"

    To be frank, some of you read like you cannot be bothered to learn any basics of game development to articulate what you actually want to see, maybe you're deliberately arguing in bad faith... who really knows?

    read the first point.


    "I don't want to play a turret RNG fest or an FPS"

    "Tab combat" can be engineered and coded to have very strict forward-facing parameters, it can be designed and coded in a way where players just can't click and shoot from any position with homing missiles. Calling "action combat" with "headshots" a first-person shooter is intellectually dishonest. Ashes will be in third person and it's not a shooter. To add to this, there are tab games with "headshots", Asherons Call is one of the first games that came to mind.

    true, you can remove homing fireballs and arrows, what you cant remove is 5 archers targetting you at the same time and 1 shotting you by pressing 1 without the possibility to avoid it or survive. in action combat, at least, you can dodge the attacks. same goes for mages nuking you. more on this later.


    "X takes more skill"

    Define "skill" for us, define "skill" where one combat system is greater than the other. If aiming and/or buttons to press both constitute a high skill ceiling, then Darkfall was among the highest skill ceiling of all. It had both buttons and aiming, you can look up the numbers to see how successful and well received it was. (hint: The combat alone wasn't good enough to carry the game and had a very niche player base)

    After talking about "skill" with many of the players, most people cannot define "skill", rather they can only cite their preferences. Clarity on the skill(s) you are talking about would be a lot more helpful than banter.


    you know..skills like...mouse precision and speed. pressing the right buttons at the right time, dodging, aiming, decision making, reflexes, reactions...not just presing 123123123111123111123111123 until you or the enemy dies, relying on simply having higher stats or an rng crit.

    also, watch starcraft 1 pro gameplay. yeah maybe you dont need 500 apm to play an mmorpg well, but you need some.



    "X system has more depth"

    What do you mean? What are you saying? This really reads like, "I get more meaning out of X". I am trying to understand, but who wants to read through a wall of mostly fallacious, nonsensical, or poorly thought-out text rather than well thought out feedback and reasoning. Who has the time to accurately translate what you are trying to convey?

    I would just like to ask, that you Combat Argumentalists go forth and become more precise in what you're trying to convey, instead of having arguments that require a mental scalpel and a dremel tool to extrapolate because they're so bloody tedious to read and understand clearly.

    Thanks.

    13 reasons why:

    tab targetting, including but not limited to AOC

    1- it allows you to move your cursor to the next monster and click it before you finish killing your current target and queue up an attack. you cant do this with action combat. this allow you to farm faster and more monsters per hour than anybody not doing this, or anybody using action combat. i guess thats another skill?

    2- you can hit people behind you, or while you are running away in the opposite direction, without even looking at them or slowing down.

    3- better stats win, basically...less player skill needed.

    4- you can check for bosses without running all the way down to their spawn point

    5- you can check for players without even being near them

    6- you can find people inside mazes or ow dungeons and know exactly where they are, even before seeing them on your screen. this is a problem for pvp and guilds at war.

    7- given the bounty hunter system, read point 6. red players will show yup on a bounty hunter's map, however, they will show up in a 2 dimentional plane (most likely) so you cant really tell if they are underground, or above u, etc. if you are on the 7th floor of a tower, a bounty hunter on floor 5 will be able to know if you are above or below without actually searching for you because of the tab target system.

    8- you can target a player, send your pet / summon to attack him while you are physically in another room of the dungeon / cave. pet dies? no problem, summon it again, rinse and repeat. cant do this with action combat.

    9- pets and summons will chase u forever and you cant drop their target, even if you use line of sight.

    10- it makes 3rd party radar even more unfair as people can target you, lets say inside a maze, and find you without traversing the maze and checking every room.

    11- radars will also alert you when someone targets you, meaning you will know someone will try to attack you even if they arent close to you, or not in the same room (or just right outside the rooms entrance behind the wall, like they saw u then stepped back), then you can prepare.

    12- are you familiar with adrenaline? it will alert your party when your healer is targetted, and make your entire party auto target that person and hit him insta deleting him.

    fun fact, if you know someone is using these programs, you can target their healer and run away, making their whole party move forward trying to chase you and be out of position and get hit for free by your teammates :D
    you can target and untarget their healer over and over and make adrenaline go nuts :D

    13- you cant use the protection of your tanks or frontline anymore. people can target you and hit you, even if you are behind your tank. tanks are already pretty useless in mass pvp. at least, with action combat, they can physically body block projectiles and spells and protect their healers or squishies, making them somewhat useful.


    theres probably more stuff, ill add them if i remember them.
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