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8 Person Parties are they to big?
Vyril
Member
Thinking about previous MMOs I've played for the past 25 years, I can see a potential issue with the party size being 8 players.
If content is based around 8 players, and to balance around each archetype being involved in each party. I have a feeling it might be tedious, and/or take a long time to fill all roles.
Pros -
Diverse group dynamics
Difficulty of encounters
1 Tank, and 7 fillers?
Cons -
Time to fill may be longer than the actual content
Loot distribution can be thinned
1 Tank, and 7 fillers?
Meta builds / groups.
What's everyone's take on group size in AoC compared to how people play MMOs this day and age with Meta builds being so prevalent?
If content is based around 8 players, and to balance around each archetype being involved in each party. I have a feeling it might be tedious, and/or take a long time to fill all roles.
The idea behind an 8-person group is to allow us to really amplify party roles, and to create a need for each of the archetypes in every party.
Pros -
Diverse group dynamics
Difficulty of encounters
1 Tank, and 7 fillers?
Cons -
Time to fill may be longer than the actual content
Loot distribution can be thinned
1 Tank, and 7 fillers?
Meta builds / groups.
What's everyone's take on group size in AoC compared to how people play MMOs this day and age with Meta builds being so prevalent?
0
Comments
So... because of that it's the best option? With no flaws that can't be discussed? Issues can't identified and possibly be addressed before launch?
Weird.
I like 8-man parties, but I can see some issues, hence the discussion.
I agree.
Part of the issue and question is do classes overlap with utility? If not, finding that summoner, bard etc could be as just difficult as finding that tank or cleric. If that non-healer/tank isn't meta in PvP.
If the game was built as a more solo experience than id say it be more difficult since people would just go content solo and not be motivated to join a group. Which means less people around and longer times to form a group.
This is what drives my question. Is the quote they have regarding group dynamics.
Finding the bodies likely wouldn't be the issue, but more of are they the correct ones. Since their quoted design is for each archetype.
Do we know that, because the only information is what they have provided in their quote.
I like the way they did this. I take it like a box of chocolates with an assortment of candies each to the liking of a different taste bud.
Nah, we know more than that.
For instance, we know that groups wont require one of each class, because Steven has said exactly this in the past.
The wiki is great, but not everything is on it.
That's respectable. Would be nice to find the quote.
meta isnt a concern. theres nothing wrong with that, and it cant be avoided unless every class its the same lol
there will always be setups better than others for certain activities
if the game is well balanced and design aim reached, this will be 1 of each archetype, so one bard.
Most games are designed on the basis that you are not supposed to have all the buffs, and need to make an actual choice for any given piece of content. Circumventing this is a valid choice which comes with a different tradeoff.
If there are no limitations there are no choices, and if there is no choice, there is no agency.
but this isnt most games, this is ashes, which is very very similar to L2. I made a post about it a while back.
for example, in l2 you need to have 5 supports : 4 dps (or 3 dps and 1 tank) and some parties even do 6 supports : 3 dps. do you see the problem here? and thats a game where you need to have all the buffs. its not even remotely close to optional.
if ashes is as buff dependant as L2, im afraid we will have the same issue of needing too many supports per party. that wouldnt be an issue if most players played a support class, but most dont.
we already saw it was kind of hard to progress in alpha 1 without heals, and that the healer would be mana starved without gift of the magi. i suspect the bard and the summoner will have a mana regen mechanic for the party as well, making them necessary no matter which party comp you want to make.
my concern with the double bard situation and the buffs is that you might have to get more than 1 bard per party with different sub class, just to be able to progress, if the game is as buff dependand (or support dependant as L2).
The first citation on the wiki under "Party" references the blog post Group Dynamics in Ashes of Creation, which may be relevant here. Specifically, "The idea behind an 8-person group is to allow us to really amplify party roles, and to create a need for each of the archetypes in every party.".
I would expect that since their explicit goal is to require parties to have one of each archetype, they will test with parties of that composition and not repeat L2's bad design choices simply as a result of testing their content with such a composition. This is one of the harder mistakes to miss (if not make), if you start from that position in your testing.
It makes sense to create a need for each one but I wouldn't get stuck on "We have 2 warriors we can't have 2 rangers as well".
I don't think the game is going to be that firm in a generic feeling where you need one of every class, but there will be a lot of ways people use the classes and their strengths to tackle content in unique ways as players do.
This.
Definitely seems like IS wants to ensure that each archetype has important strengths and shines in niche ways, and the optimal group may well include one of each. But it seems very unlikely they would design encounters such that one of each is mandatory. Unless there were an even distribution of player archetypes, such a design would be very frustrating for forming raid groups.
Sure, maybe a particular encounter requires a rogue to disarm a trap, and perhaps all encounters benefit from having a rogue in the group, but it seems unlikely that the majority of encounters would absolutely require a rogue to complete the content.
I think part of this relates to them wanting every archetype to have a class skill that can be used in dungeons, as well. Like the cleric cleansing toxic gas to create a new path, for example. If you wanna ensure you can find all the secrets bring all the skills.