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8 Person Parties are they to big?

VyrilVyril Member, Alpha Two
edited October 2022 in General Discussion
Thinking about previous MMOs I've played for the past 25 years, I can see a potential issue with the party size being 8 players.

If content is based around 8 players, and to balance around each archetype being involved in each party. I have a feeling it might be tedious, and/or take a long time to fill all roles.
The idea behind an 8-person group is to allow us to really amplify party roles, and to create a need for each of the archetypes in every party.

Pros -
Diverse group dynamics
Difficulty of encounters
1 Tank, and 7 fillers?

Cons -
Time to fill may be longer than the actual content
Loot distribution can be thinned
1 Tank, and 7 fillers?
Meta builds / groups.

What's everyone's take on group size in AoC compared to how people play MMOs this day and age with Meta builds being so prevalent?

Comments

  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    well, they have been designing the game for 6 years planning everything around 8-player group content - all the classes and content made is taking the 8-player group size into consideration so... it's irrelevant at this point to talk about it, it's not going to change - and I personally really like the size but, as I said, it's irrelevant
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  • VyrilVyril Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Liniker wrote: »
    well, they have been designing the game for 6 years planning everything around 8-player group content - all the classes and content made is taking the 8-player group size into consideration so... it's irrelevant at this point to talk about it, it's not going to change - and I personally really like the size but, as I said, it's irrelevant

    So... because of that it's the best option? With no flaws that can't be discussed? Issues can't identified and possibly be addressed before launch?

    Weird.

    I like 8-man parties, but I can see some issues, hence the discussion.
  • LashLash Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think 8 man is a good mitigating solution to that age old issue in MMOs. The lack of healers and tanks. Assuming 1 tank and 1 healer is all you need for 8 man content that is.
  • VyrilVyril Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Lashing wrote: »
    I think 8 man is a good mitigating solution to that age old issue in MMOs. The lack of healers and tanks. Assuming 1 tank and 1 healer is all you need for 8 man content that is.

    I agree.

    Part of the issue and question is do classes overlap with utility? If not, finding that summoner, bard etc could be as just difficult as finding that tank or cleric. If that non-healer/tank isn't meta in PvP.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    I don't think it will be a issue personally, the more mandatory feeling to need a group will push people to socialize more to do the content. Which means people actively joining guild or searching for a group which meaning more people are available and it balances out the time needed to find a group.

    If the game was built as a more solo experience than id say it be more difficult since people would just go content solo and not be motivated to join a group. Which means less people around and longer times to form a group.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZfqaW5klpg
  • LashLash Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If I had to guess I would assume 8 man content is not going to be hard enough to warrant min/max to extreme levels. Where just another body is good enough. Hard to say without testing it. As it stands I think the benefits will outweigh the downsides
  • FallenPaladinFallenPaladin Member, Alpha Two
    It's an mmo so technically 8-man parties are viable instead of the regular 6. The only real issue I can perceieve might be lag.
    Fyrentennimar
  • VyrilVyril Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Lashing wrote: »
    If I had to guess I would assume 8 man content is not going to be hard enough to warrant min/max to extreme levels. Where just another body is good enough. Hard to say without testing it. As it stands I think the benefits will outweigh the downsides

    This is what drives my question. Is the quote they have regarding group dynamics.
    The idea behind an 8-person group is to allow us to really amplify party roles, and to create a need for each of the archetypes in every party.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I don't think it will be a issue personally, the more mandatory feeling to need a group will push people to socialize more to do the content. Which means people actively joining guild or searching for a group which meaning more people are available and it balances out the time needed to find a group.

    If the game was built as a more solo experience than id say it be more difficult since people would just go content solo and not be motivated to join a group. Which means less people around and longer times to form a group.

    Finding the bodies likely wouldn't be the issue, but more of are they the correct ones. Since their quoted design is for each archetype.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Vyril wrote: »
    Finding the bodies likely wouldn't be the issue, but more of are they the correct ones. Since their quoted design is for each archetype.
    That is an ideal, not a requirement.
  • VyrilVyril Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Vyril wrote: »
    Finding the bodies likely wouldn't be the issue, but more of are they the correct ones. Since their quoted design is for each archetype.
    That is an ideal, not a requirement.

    Do we know that, because the only information is what they have provided in their quote.
    The idea behind an 8-person group is to allow us to really amplify party roles, and to create a need for each of the archetypes in every party.
  • FallenPaladinFallenPaladin Member, Alpha Two
    Vyril wrote: »
    Finding the bodies likely wouldn't be the issue, but more of are they the correct ones. Since their quoted design is for each archetype.

    I like the way they did this. I take it like a box of chocolates with an assortment of candies each to the liking of a different taste bud.


    Fyrentennimar
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    To me that's not enough. I'm used to 9-man parties. Otherwise, everything that Mag said applies.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Vyril wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Vyril wrote: »
    Finding the bodies likely wouldn't be the issue, but more of are they the correct ones. Since their quoted design is for each archetype.
    That is an ideal, not a requirement.

    Do we know that, because the only information is what they have provided in their quote.
    The idea behind an 8-person group is to allow us to really amplify party roles, and to create a need for each of the archetypes in every party.

    Nah, we know more than that.

    For instance, we know that groups wont require one of each class, because Steven has said exactly this in the past.

    The wiki is great, but not everything is on it.
  • VyrilVyril Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Vyril wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Vyril wrote: »
    Finding the bodies likely wouldn't be the issue, but more of are they the correct ones. Since their quoted design is for each archetype.
    That is an ideal, not a requirement.

    Do we know that, because the only information is what they have provided in their quote.
    The idea behind an 8-person group is to allow us to really amplify party roles, and to create a need for each of the archetypes in every party.

    Nah, we know more than that.

    For instance, we know that groups wont require one of each class, because Steven has said exactly this in the past.

    The wiki is great, but not everything is on it.

    That's respectable. Would be nice to find the quote.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    i have the same concern. it will be harder to make a set party of 8 than of 5 or 6. also, the numbers of supports needed per party is a concern as well, because most people play dps classes. and if you need, lets say, 2 bards per party to have all the buffs, then its even harder to make a decent party.

    meta isnt a concern. theres nothing wrong with that, and it cant be avoided unless every class its the same lol
    there will always be setups better than others for certain activities
  • AerlanaAerlana Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    i have the same concern. it will be harder to make a set party of 8 than of 5 or 6. also, the numbers of supports needed per party is a concern as well, because most people play dps classes. and if you need, lets say, 2 bards per party to have all the buffs, then its even harder to make a decent party.

    meta isnt a concern. theres nothing wrong with that, and it cant be avoided unless every class its the same lol
    there will always be setups better than others for certain activities

    if the game is well balanced and design aim reached, this will be 1 of each archetype, so one bard.
  • SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    i have the same concern. it will be harder to make a set party of 8 than of 5 or 6. also, the numbers of supports needed per party is a concern as well, because most people play dps classes. and if you need, lets say, 2 bards per party to have all the buffs, then its even harder to make a decent party.

    meta isnt a concern. theres nothing wrong with that, and it cant be avoided unless every class its the same lol
    there will always be setups better than others for certain activities

    Most games are designed on the basis that you are not supposed to have all the buffs, and need to make an actual choice for any given piece of content. Circumventing this is a valid choice which comes with a different tradeoff.

    If there are no limitations there are no choices, and if there is no choice, there is no agency.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    SongRune wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    i have the same concern. it will be harder to make a set party of 8 than of 5 or 6. also, the numbers of supports needed per party is a concern as well, because most people play dps classes. and if you need, lets say, 2 bards per party to have all the buffs, then its even harder to make a decent party.

    meta isnt a concern. theres nothing wrong with that, and it cant be avoided unless every class its the same lol
    there will always be setups better than others for certain activities

    Most games are designed on the basis that you are not supposed to have all the buffs, and need to make an actual choice for any given piece of content. Circumventing this is a valid choice which comes with a different tradeoff.

    If there are no limitations there are no choices, and if there is no choice, there is no agency.

    but this isnt most games, this is ashes, which is very very similar to L2. I made a post about it a while back.
    for example, in l2 you need to have 5 supports : 4 dps (or 3 dps and 1 tank) and some parties even do 6 supports : 3 dps. do you see the problem here? and thats a game where you need to have all the buffs. its not even remotely close to optional.

    if ashes is as buff dependant as L2, im afraid we will have the same issue of needing too many supports per party. that wouldnt be an issue if most players played a support class, but most dont.

    we already saw it was kind of hard to progress in alpha 1 without heals, and that the healer would be mana starved without gift of the magi. i suspect the bard and the summoner will have a mana regen mechanic for the party as well, making them necessary no matter which party comp you want to make.

    my concern with the double bard situation and the buffs is that you might have to get more than 1 bard per party with different sub class, just to be able to progress, if the game is as buff dependand (or support dependant as L2).

  • SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Intrepid has often stated the goal that a party should contain exactly one of each archetype.

    The first citation on the wiki under "Party" references the blog post Group Dynamics in Ashes of Creation, which may be relevant here. Specifically, "The idea behind an 8-person group is to allow us to really amplify party roles, and to create a need for each of the archetypes in every party.".

    I would expect that since their explicit goal is to require parties to have one of each archetype, they will test with parties of that composition and not repeat L2's bad design choices simply as a result of testing their content with such a composition. This is one of the harder mistakes to miss (if not make), if you start from that position in your testing.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    I feel it is being designed so one of each archetype will be viable in a group content together so none are left out. It doesn't necessary mean that content designed for 8 people can't be done by different combinations of classes.

    It makes sense to create a need for each one but I wouldn't get stuck on "We have 2 warriors we can't have 2 rangers as well".

    I don't think the game is going to be that firm in a generic feeling where you need one of every class, but there will be a lot of ways people use the classes and their strengths to tackle content in unique ways as players do.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZfqaW5klpg
  • AlmostDeadAlmostDead Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I feel it is being designed so one of each archetype will be viable in a group content together so none are left out. It doesn't necessary mean that content designed for 8 people can't be done by different combinations of classes.

    This.

    Definitely seems like IS wants to ensure that each archetype has important strengths and shines in niche ways, and the optimal group may well include one of each. But it seems very unlikely they would design encounters such that one of each is mandatory. Unless there were an even distribution of player archetypes, such a design would be very frustrating for forming raid groups.

    Sure, maybe a particular encounter requires a rogue to disarm a trap, and perhaps all encounters benefit from having a rogue in the group, but it seems unlikely that the majority of encounters would absolutely require a rogue to complete the content.
  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There is a very low chance the optimal party will consist of every Archtype. More than likely we will probably see class stacking in this game, simply because some classes will be better at certain dungeons/scenarios.
  • CptBrownBeardCptBrownBeard Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Vyril wrote: »
    The idea behind an 8-person group is to allow us to really amplify party roles, and to create a need for each of the archetypes in every party.

    I think part of this relates to them wanting every archetype to have a class skill that can be used in dungeons, as well. Like the cleric cleansing toxic gas to create a new path, for example. If you wanna ensure you can find all the secrets bring all the skills.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    We will test it in Alpha 2.
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