About the proposed minigames for crafting

When you design this for our testing pleasure in A2, please consider your target audience. While there are many demographics that enjoy crafting, a big part of of them are not twitch skill gods or finger ninjas due to age or disabilities or just temperament. They enjoy the more leisurely pace that the artisan skills often provide.

So please, any minigames, or gameplay layers as Steven called them in the AMA, don't make them hard quick time action types or where a very high precision is required for the best results.

Obviously any gameplay layers need to not be tedious after the 100th time either.

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Azherae

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

ClintHardwood wrote: »

Please don't put in crafting minigames. They'll inevitably lead to a macro-crafting meta, and anyone who doesn't cheat will suffer.

Another awful take. "Please don't try and implement anything because it is might lead to a meta or people cheating" Jesus wept.

But at the same time you can't just ignore it.

If the minigame is too simple, I could theoretically have an untraceable bot ready in an hour.

If that minigame was based more on button presses than fiddly mouse movements, ten minutes.

You can't make 'Recognition >> Twitch Skill' style minigames for MMOs anymore except on Consoles.

WHIT3ROS3

Azherae wrote: »

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

ClintHardwood wrote: »

Please don't put in crafting minigames. They'll inevitably lead to a macro-crafting meta, and anyone who doesn't cheat will suffer.

Another awful take. "Please don't try and implement anything because it is might lead to a meta or people cheating" Jesus wept.

But at the same time you can't just ignore it.

If the minigame is too simple, I could theoretically have an untraceable bot ready in an hour.

If that minigame was based more on button presses than fiddly mouse movements, ten minutes.

You can't make 'Recognition >> Twitch Skill' style minigames for MMOs anymore except on Consoles.

So to be clear, you don't think there should even be a game? No point in combat because people will create aim-bots. No point in having transport because people will use speed hacks? No point in anything because cheaters will cheat and that will create an unfair advantage? Such a backwards take.

Number 1. You know nothing about these potential gameplay loops. To just unilaterally say no, with no information, no experience, no testing... nothing. is just urgh.

Number 2. You have just stated very clearly that you intend to cheat in the game. Hopefully Intrepid keeps a close eye on your account and Perma bans you when you try to implement botting of any kind.

Strevi

Apparently before it was stated that

Repetitive skill-based crafting mechanics, such as mini-games, are not an intended part of the crafting experience.[1][2]

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crafting_mechanics

Another topic where @Dygz got an answer and things change
[1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=RS3e0vuj5lA&t=2741s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS3e0vuj5lA&t=2741s
[2] https://youtube.com/watch?v=ni4DTaN6JvQ&t=1640s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni4DTaN6JvQ&t=1640s

Sambino

I quite like the sound of profession mini games. how many times have you gone to an auction house and bought out hundreds of materials to press craft and and then go afk for 5-10 minutes? That is boring. I would like to see something closer to new world's profession system and not anything like WoW's crafting system.

I have a suggestion, What if completing the mini game didn't actually reward a dps gain from the improved quality item but instead altered the name of the item or its durability?

If a crafter needs 5 skill points and wants to just craft all 5 broadswords while semi-afk you could let them.

If a crafter would like to play the crafting mini game the item could gain an altered name such as "Flawless Broadsword" or perhaps its durability could be higher. It could be a blue quality with the same stats as a green quality. Could it have a socket available that would allow you to imbue a cosmetic only aura around the weapon? similar to fiery weapon enchant?

Just a few suggestions.

Ps. Cutting down trees in new world with the proximity and directional in game sound was the most immersive gathering I've ever done in an MMO. I hope the sound engineers are onto it in AOC!

Azherae

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

ClintHardwood wrote: »

Please don't put in crafting minigames. They'll inevitably lead to a macro-crafting meta, and anyone who doesn't cheat will suffer.

Another awful take. "Please don't try and implement anything because it is might lead to a meta or people cheating" Jesus wept.

But at the same time you can't just ignore it.

If the minigame is too simple, I could theoretically have an untraceable bot ready in an hour.

If that minigame was based more on button presses than fiddly mouse movements, ten minutes.

You can't make 'Recognition >> Twitch Skill' style minigames for MMOs anymore except on Consoles.

So to be clear, you don't think there should even be a game? No point in combat because people will create aim-bots. No point in having transport because people will use speed hacks? No point in anything because cheaters will cheat and that will create an unfair advantage? Such a backwards take.

Number 1. You know nothing about these potential gameplay loops. To just unilaterally say no, with no information, no experience, no testing... nothing. is just urgh.

Number 2. You have just stated very clearly that you intend to cheat in the game. Hopefully Intrepid keeps a close eye on your account and Perma bans you when you try to implement botting of any kind.

I didn't say any of that.

There IS a type of skill that bots don't handle well, because most bots are not good at deciding when to make tradeoffs, and complex things require them to have billions of points of training data.

Many of the exploits and bots you are talking about are detectable, crafting minigame bots usually WORK in a way that makes them much harder if not impossible to detect. I also have suggestions for minigames that bots do not work on, which is what I was pointing out. I can TELL people 'I can bot this' or 'I can't bot this' and how long it takes.

Also, I have not stated any intention to cheat. I have said that I know HOW to. Intrepid already knows (assuming they pay attention to this stuff and if they don't, what's your point?)

I am happy to literally post code to explain to OTHER people how easy it is to cheat CERTAIN systems. I do not think Intrepid will ban me for knowing how to do it. If anything, I will gladly help them test 'can they detect it' in Alpha if they want, but that seems 'dangerous' on both sides.

I already would expect they will be monitoring my account extra close, and I welcome it. Because if I 'get caught cheating' when I am definitely not (because I will not), then it will tell them, and people, that their algorithms for detecting it are triggering false positives, and I MIGHT have enough understanding to help them see why.

I understand the wish to crush all botters and cheaters, I share it, but 'assuming that I am going to do it' because I know how, leads to nothing good for this community, so maybe let it slide a little and leave it to Intrepid as you pointed out.

Mag7spy

Strevi wrote: »

Apparently before it was stated that

Repetitive skill-based crafting mechanics, such as mini-games, are not an intended part of the crafting experience.[1][2]

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crafting_mechanics

Another topic where @Dygz got an answer and things change
[1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=RS3e0vuj5lA&t=2741s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS3e0vuj5lA&t=2741s
[2] https://youtube.com/watch?v=ni4DTaN6JvQ&t=1640s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni4DTaN6JvQ&t=1640s

That is open development though, things can change. Doesn't mean it will though or it will be in such a way with the mini games that will warrant to feel like it was a big change.

WHIT3ROS3

Azherae wrote: »

I MIGHT have enough understanding to help them see why.

Intrepid would be truly blessed to have such a knowledgable, fair and benevolent god such as yourself. We can only hope you grace the process with your 5head amazingness.

Azherae

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I MIGHT have enough understanding to help them see why.

Intrepid would be truly blessed to have such a knowledgable, fair and benevolent god such as yourself. We can only hope you grace the process with your 5head amazingness.

I really never understand responses like this. I just end up assuming I always come off like some super arrogant person even when I am trying my best not to (might as well not, right?)

What would you have preferred here? For me to 'assume that I can't possibly have enough understanding to be any help at all'? I don't get it.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I really never understand responses like this. I just end up assuming I always come off like some super arrogant person even when I am trying my best not to (might as well not, right?)

What would you have preferred here? For me to 'assume that I can't possibly have enough understanding to be any help at all'? I don't get it.

To me you never did. I think it's usually either assumptions based on previous experiences with people that say those phrases (w/o looking at the bigger picture of someone's post history) or just projection.

AntVictus

Azherae wrote: »

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I MIGHT have enough understanding to help them see why.

Intrepid would be truly blessed to have such a knowledgable, fair and benevolent god such as yourself. We can only hope you grace the process with your 5head amazingness.

I really never understand responses like this. I just end up assuming I always come off like some super arrogant person even when I am trying my best not to (might as well not, right?)

What would you have preferred here? For me to 'assume that I can't possibly have enough understanding to be any help at all'? I don't get it.

Nope you didn't come off as that, guy is just mad because people don't fully agree with him. Happens all the time.

Asgerr

What was described reminds a little bit of how crafting worked in the RPG Dragon's Quest XI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI5blRSy_nM&ab_channel=Ashe10

WHIT3ROS3

AntVictus wrote: »

Nope you didn't come off as that, guy is just mad because people don't fully agree with him. Happens all the time.

Yep. Incandescent with rage. I can barely contain my anger. lol.

Also, what is there to disagree with? "Could be interesting, let's see and test"

Saying "No" to something you haven't even seen yet isn't a "take", it's just dumb doomer doodoo.

prymortal

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ak8cY6Cd63k&t=682s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak8cY6Cd63k&t=682s
This is how It should be. 11:22 since linking is broken.

Theplague4u

Well hopefully if the minigames are straight trash they will change it up in A2 instead of keeping it. I'm not looking forward to minigames for crafting but hopefully it won't be overly complicated.

Vexsin

It's difficult to comment on this given we haven't seen a working example, but on the concept as a whole I'll say this: Mini games sound like a fun unique way to value add to crafting, but I don't believe they should dictate the quality of the crafted item. I myself don't really like mini-games and if I spent 100s of hours leveling up crafting only to find I can't forge an item I want simply because I can't click on a mini game fast enough it would definatley put me off crafting all together. If I'm playing and paying a sub for an MMO then I want an MMO, if I wanted to play a minigame I'd download a mobile game. I think it's fine having a minigame, just please don't make it a requirement for crafted gear quality.

Strevi

Vexsin wrote: »

It's difficult to comment on this given we haven't seen a working example, but on the concept as a whole I'll say this: Mini games sound like a fun unique way to value add to crafting, but I don't believe they should dictate the quality of the crafted item. I myself don't really like mini-games and if I spent 100s of hours leveling up crafting only to find I can't forge an item I want simply because I can't click on a mini game fast enough it would definatley put me off crafting all together. If I'm playing and paying a sub for an MMO then I want an MMO, if I wanted to play a minigame I'd download a mobile game. I think it's fine having a minigame, just please don't make it a requirement for crafted gear quality.

I don't like mini-games either.
The problem is that players call mini-games also activities which try to simulate the real activity, like the behavior of the fish when you try to catch it and pull it out. And such things if they are simple and immersion breaking, you see them as game withing a game (mini-game).

But while I hate mini-games I also hate the simple combining recipes, where you can get 100 parts in one click because otherwise it would be repetitive to do that 100 time.

What I want is a crafting procedure which is time consuming, with many different phases which I cannot repeat many times. For example if the game (or players) ask for 10 swords, the game should prevent me to have the time to do that fast. My answer to the customer would be that I do not have the time to do all of them because I have to go to a raid soon.

Now comes the question if hitting the hot metal over and over is interesting or if is a repetitive / tedious process.
What can be interesting about it?
Maybe the ability to click 5000 times is what will make some crafters able to do that profession?

I definitely do not see any mini-game which can associated with this metal hitting process which I can also accept as immersive, unless the lore will attach additional phenomena to that metal being hit, like infusing it with the property to not drop when the player is killed.
What kind of energies decide that corrupted players drop items while normal players keep them?

SirChancelot

Nerror wrote: »

When you design this for our testing pleasure in A2, please consider your target audience. While there are many demographics that enjoy crafting, a big part of of them are not twitch skill gods or finger ninjas due to age or disabilities or just temperament. They enjoy the more leisurely pace that the artisan skills often provide.

So please, any minigames, or gameplay layers as Steven called them in the AMA, don't make them hard quick time action types or where a very high precision is required for the best results.

Obviously any gameplay layers need to not be tedious after the 100th time either.

What would you think if the mini games were more like puzzles then?
Make the most of these pieces fit inside this sword shaped box and you increase the builds efficiency?
Arrange these runes in the right way to bring out the most power from the enchant?

For the weapon smithing one we could have easier puzzles for lower tier gear, and increased difficulty as it gets higher. And you can always try to reattempt the puzzle to increase 'your technique ' of smithing that particular item.

BaSkA_9x2

Nerror wrote: »

So please, any minigames, or gameplay layers as Steven called them in the AMA, don't make them hard quick time action types or where a very high precision is required for the best results.

Obviously any gameplay layers need to not be tedious after the 100th time either.

I believe the minigames can be fun while it's a novelty, but can quickly turn into an annoying chore. For that reason, the crafting minigames should be optional to avoid making it tedious even for players who enjoy them and/or to avoid annoying a (large?) portion of the crafters who don't enjoy them.

If a crafter doesn't choose to do the minigame, there's no chance of procing extra stats (or whatever variation in gear stats/blues Ashes will have).
If a crafter does choose to do the minigame, then allow for the chance of procing extra stats or whatever else they have in mind.

That means you can mindlessly craft a thousand tier I bronze swords, but when you want to craft a tier V Epic Dragon Horn Longsword you can choose to do the minigame for whatever advantages/risks/etc. (or not).

I really hope that they don't consider adding minigames to gathering skills, except for fishing. That would be quite a deal breaker for me personally.

Strevi wrote: »

Apparently before it was stated that

Repetitive skill-based crafting mechanics, such as mini-games, are not an intended part of the crafting experience.[1][2]

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crafting_mechanics

Another topic where @Dygz got an answer and things changed

Unfortunately due to recent events, I really don't trust in many things they have said in the past anymore. I will not be surprised if many big core changes are announced before Alpha 2. Don't get me wrong, it's fine to change/improve things that are broken, I'd just love to hear the real reasons, not some PR bs

Dygz

I think the real reason is time.
When the game is supposed to release in just a couple of years - "before 2020" - the devs would have to stick close to the original vision.
Once we start seeing significant changes and an open-ended release date - we can expect to see more significant changes.
Especially when there is no Lead Game Designer.

Selo

what i want to see are more interactions between different craftertypes.
Like you make the blade and hilt as a weaponsmith, but need help from a leatherworker to make the leather wrapping and scabbard.
And then an enchanter to add extra stats.

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