The convenience in crafting needs to be taken out of MMORPGs. It shouldn't be possible to mass produce items with the click of a button. There's a reason why crafting is widely considered boring and tedious in these games, and it's because there's nothing interactive or interesting about it. You just gather the needed materials, click a button and poof you have a greatsword. No, you should actually have to hammer the metal out into a blade and make the hilt with a full on interactive process with animations. I'm not saying it should take hours of hammering just to produce one sword, but it should take longer than it does now maybe 30 seconds to a minute and require some effort. The goal is to immerse you in the game and make you feel like you're actually accomplishing something, clicking a craft button doesn't do that. Reward players who put in the time to level their craft and perfect the process. For those that are saying no I don't want to, that takes too long, mini games will be repetitive, so what's your alternative? Don't even attempt to innovate? Keep crafting in the most primitive sorry state? Not only is that lazy game design but it's a lazy argument to make as well. I see plenty of people complaining about it already but we haven't even seen how it works yet. Basically you just want crafting to stay the same because it's easy for you to click a button go afk for 10 minutes and come back to 100 crafted items. It's practically automated. It's mindless. Also, trying to argue a mini game will make it easier for bots is complete nonsense on so many levels, but the main being pressing one button will ALWAYS be easier than completing a more drawn out task. Actually it makes it more difficult, so really your whole argument is backwards. The plans to split up gathers, processors and crafters further expands on that idea. The game is trying to be innovative whether you like it or not, and I'm glad someone finally made the right decision to do something different from the last 100 WoW wannabes.
Minigames help keep bots out from leveling professions. It is mini-games where - there is no specific script for same action, and each time something new mini-game is issued. Like, one time you press TAB on 3 second, control mouse and etc. Next time different timing.
Also, trying to argue a mini game will make it easier for bots is complete nonsense on so many levels, but the main being pressing one button will ALWAYS be easier than completing a more drawn out task. Actually it makes it more difficult, so really your whole argument is backwards.
People don't say that minigames will make things easier for bots. They are saying that specific minigames make things easy (not 'easier') for bots. A lot of things that are hard for humans are easy for bots. Many (but not all) things that are easy for humans are also easy for bots. If you pick the wrong minigames, it doesn't help prevent bots. But it can discourage humans and make "using a bot" more attractive than doing it yourself. End result? More bots.
Minigames help keep bots out from leveling professions. It is mini-games where - there is no specific script for same action, and each time something new mini-game is issued. Like, one time you press TAB on 3 second, control mouse and etc. Next time different timing.
Here's an example. He's right that minigames can keep bots from leveling professions, but the thing that Lineager actually described is super easy to write a bot for. (I've done it.) You'd need some other separate aspect to make it difficult for the bot to know which of those many possible things thing it is supposed to do.
When you design this for our testing pleasure in A2, please consider your target audience. While there are many demographics that enjoy crafting, a big part of of them are not twitch skill gods or finger ninjas due to age or disabilities or just temperament. They enjoy the more leisurely pace that the artisan skills often provide.
So please, any minigames, or gameplay layers as Steven called them in the AMA, don't make them hard quick time action types or where a very high precision is required for the best results.
Obviously any gameplay layers need to not be tedious after the 100th time either.
Perhaps target audience is for the twitch player. Who knows.
A minigame could be fun. I don't know what they have in mind. That said, I don't see a need to fix something that's not broke. People liked crafting when it was just combining the right things in the right place. Why not stick with that and spend effort developing other systems?
Overall I'm not against mini games, I just don't want to spend hours gathering materials for a specific item only for the item to fail or be of low quality because I can't click on a mini game fast enough. I think if the quality of crafted gear depends on how fast you can click a mini game then a lot of people just won't bother with crafting. Regardless, we haven't even seen a working example yet so it's hard to comment until we do.
The old world is dying, the new world struggles to be born, now is the time of monsters.
While I don't want a twitch based crafting system (look up excavating in Lost Ark), I also don't want a system where you can spend minutes looking up your next move to get it just right (ESO Antiquities scrying/excavating) that ends up being nearly impossible to fail once you have all the passives/buffs
Something that has a 2-minute time limit, but if played blazingly fast and perfectly only takes 30s to complete
If what Steven means by gameplay layers is a slightly more involved process than simply clicking two buttons to craft, but more along the lines of simulating the process of shaping the final product, that could be ok if done right.
I am hard set against difficult skill checks as described in the OP, requiring very precise timing or mouse precision in order to get the best result. That would completely miss the point of what makes crafting engaging for a large majority of crafters. Please don't make the actual process stressful.
I am ok with complex and deep crafting systems, where gameplay layers are knowledge based rather than twitch skill based. IMO, crafting should be a more cerebral experience, combined with the social aspects of interacting with customers and other crafters.
Tiny window pops up and it shows a tree trunk with a cut on the side and there's an axe already in movement... but the axe will hit far away from where the cut it is, so the player just has to move the mouse up or down a little bit so the axe hits the cut
That's all
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
When you design this for our testing pleasure in A2, please consider your target audience. While there are many demographics that enjoy crafting, a big part of of them are not twitch skill gods or finger ninjas due to age or disabilities or just temperament. They enjoy the more leisurely pace that the artisan skills often provide.
So please, any minigames, or gameplay layers as Steven called them in the AMA, don't make them hard quick time action types or where a very high precision is required for the best results.
Obviously any gameplay layers need to not be tedious after the 100th time either.
I am very much not a fan of minigames. If I am trying to craft something I prefer having the mats and hitting the craft button.
That said I do agree with the people that we need to see some iteration of what they have in mind first before fully writing it off. Anything in a game, and I do mean anything, can be made fun even if every version of that idea in every other game has been a disaster. The possibility of it being fun is there.
Your point of not being tedious after the 100th time is very valid. I have been a craftaholic in the games I have played. What about the 500th time? Or the 1000th time? I just don't see how these minigames can remain fun, engaging or beneficial, which is why I just prefer not having those types of games.
The other point that can't be expressed enough is if you lose or waste high level, hard to get mats because of some ridiculous minigame, how is that in any way fun, engaging, useful, warranted? When you are a professional at the top of your field you have learned how to mitigate the variables to eliminate any outcome other than the one you desire. Maybe in the beginning you have minigames you need to work through but at the highest levels it should just be a click of a button and the item is made.
Bring the materials to the station/building, one click in what I want and then come back a few hours later when everything is complete
I uterly hate clicky grinds, I would not have in AoC any of the traditional RPG crafting systems where you gotta to stay there grinding the profession for hours and on top of that doing minigames
Grind 100 daggers... now grind 100 short swords
No God, Please No!
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Comments
People don't say that minigames will make things easier for bots. They are saying that specific minigames make things easy (not 'easier') for bots. A lot of things that are hard for humans are easy for bots. Many (but not all) things that are easy for humans are also easy for bots. If you pick the wrong minigames, it doesn't help prevent bots. But it can discourage humans and make "using a bot" more attractive than doing it yourself. End result? More bots.
Here's an example. He's right that minigames can keep bots from leveling professions, but the thing that Lineager actually described is super easy to write a bot for. (I've done it.) You'd need some other separate aspect to make it difficult for the bot to know which of those many possible things thing it is supposed to do.
Perhaps target audience is for the twitch player. Who knows.
I like this DQ example!
Even better if it had an extra layer of depth - something like:
Something that has a 2-minute time limit, but if played blazingly fast and perfectly only takes 30s to complete
I am hard set against difficult skill checks as described in the OP, requiring very precise timing or mouse precision in order to get the best result. That would completely miss the point of what makes crafting engaging for a large majority of crafters. Please don't make the actual process stressful.
I am ok with complex and deep crafting systems, where gameplay layers are knowledge based rather than twitch skill based. IMO, crafting should be a more cerebral experience, combined with the social aspects of interacting with customers and other crafters.
Tiny window pops up and it shows a tree trunk with a cut on the side and there's an axe already in movement... but the axe will hit far away from where the cut it is, so the player just has to move the mouse up or down a little bit so the axe hits the cut
That's all
I am very much not a fan of minigames. If I am trying to craft something I prefer having the mats and hitting the craft button.
That said I do agree with the people that we need to see some iteration of what they have in mind first before fully writing it off. Anything in a game, and I do mean anything, can be made fun even if every version of that idea in every other game has been a disaster. The possibility of it being fun is there.
Your point of not being tedious after the 100th time is very valid. I have been a craftaholic in the games I have played. What about the 500th time? Or the 1000th time? I just don't see how these minigames can remain fun, engaging or beneficial, which is why I just prefer not having those types of games.
The other point that can't be expressed enough is if you lose or waste high level, hard to get mats because of some ridiculous minigame, how is that in any way fun, engaging, useful, warranted? When you are a professional at the top of your field you have learned how to mitigate the variables to eliminate any outcome other than the one you desire. Maybe in the beginning you have minigames you need to work through but at the highest levels it should just be a click of a button and the item is made.
Bring the materials to the station/building, one click in what I want and then come back a few hours later when everything is complete
I uterly hate clicky grinds, I would not have in AoC any of the traditional RPG crafting systems where you gotta to stay there grinding the profession for hours and on top of that doing minigames
Grind 100 daggers... now grind 100 short swords
No God, Please No!