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Map Size vs. Player Count

worddogworddog Member
in General Discussion
I hear a lot of discussion about how common people think world PvP will be.

Even with 8,000 players, the map seems way to big for open world PvP to be super common.

Comments

  • SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    worddog wrote: »
    I hear a lot of discussion about how common people think world PvP will be.

    Even with 8,000 players, the map seems way to big for open world PvP to be super common.

    It doesn't tend to happen at random evenly distributed locations across the map. It happens near good resources. It happens near convenient resources. It happens at popular grind sites. It happens along travel routes.

    Players come into conflict through activities, not random chance.
  • worddogworddog Member
    SongRune wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    I hear a lot of discussion about how common people think world PvP will be.

    Even with 8,000 players, the map seems way to big for open world PvP to be super common.

    It doesn't tend to happen at random evenly distributed locations across the map. It happens near good resources. It happens near convenient resources. It happens at popular grind sites. It happens along travel routes.

    Players come into conflict through activities, not random chance.

    Don't all 84 nodes have resources? Are we expecting all of them to have PvP? I feel like there will lots of places that PvPers just don't bother going.

    There is also only so many PvPers, not everyone is going to be running around looking to gank people.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Player funnels. Most hardcore players will live in Node lvl 5 and 6. There's only gonna be 15 such nodes. And only a few of them will have super popular dungeons, so it's gonna funnel people even more. And you'll have yourself hundreds of people fighting over just a few locations.
  • worddogworddog Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Player funnels. Most hardcore players will live in Node lvl 5 and 6. There's only gonna be 15 such nodes. And only a few of them will have super popular dungeons, so it's gonna funnel people even more. And you'll have yourself hundreds of people fighting over just a few locations.

    But is the rest of the map just unused then? Why have such a big map if it won't be used.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    But is the rest of the map just unused then? Why have such a big map if it won't be used.
    Other parts of the map are used by lower lvl people. Artisan professions are not linked to adventure lvl so there's gonna be a ton of people who might be artisanal pros but at low lvl. They still might want to go farm some mobs or smth and will have locations to do that in.

    And due to how nodes' ZOIs gonna overlap, those player funnels will still be happening around low lvl locations too, it's just that people will be pushed towards each other because the content is limited.

    There's still quests and general resources that you'll need for various reasons that will have you travel around a bit, but Steven wants to create soft friction between players and that can only be achieved by limited the amount of super valuable content those players can do.
  • worddogworddog Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    But is the rest of the map just unused then? Why have such a big map if it won't be used.
    Other parts of the map are used by lower lvl people. Artisan professions are not linked to adventure lvl so there's gonna be a ton of people who might be artisanal pros but at low lvl. They still might want to go farm some mobs or smth and will have locations to do that in.

    And due to how nodes' ZOIs gonna overlap, those player funnels will still be happening around low lvl locations too, it's just that people will be pushed towards each other because the content is limited.

    There's still quests and general resources that you'll need for various reasons that will have you travel around a bit, but Steven wants to create soft friction between players and that can only be achieved by limited the amount of super valuable content those players can do.

    Are we expecting "low level resources" to be a thing? Because that has never existed in any game I've played. In WoW copper is still being mined by max level players.

    And in New World "low level resources" like iron ore actually became more valuable than high level resources, because they were used in high level crafting recipes. Which I thought Steven said would also be the case for Ashes of Creation.

    Unless they make those resources useless for high level players I imagine high level players will still be gathering them.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    Are we expecting "low level resources" to be a thing? Because that has never existed in any game I've played. In WoW copper is still being mined by max level players.

    And in New World "low level resources" like iron ore actually became more valuable than high level resources, because they were used in high level crafting recipes. Which I thought Steven said would also be the case for Ashes of Creation.

    Unless they make those resources useless for high level players I imagine high level players will still be gathering them.
    I'm talking more about mats/mob availability. Though we don't know how exactly the gathering will work or how limited the gatherables will be.

    Steven talks about scarcity of resources because there's a ton of sinks in the game, so that would lead me to believe that you can't just farm thousands and thousands of items a day per person farming.
  • StreviStrevi Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Player funnels. Most hardcore players will live in Node lvl 5 and 6. There's only gonna be 15 such nodes. And only a few of them will have super popular dungeons, so it's gonna funnel people even more. And you'll have yourself hundreds of people fighting over just a few locations.

    I have doubts that players will all gather into and live in the high level nodes only.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Strevi wrote: »
    I have doubts that players will all gather into and live in the high level nodes only.
    I mean, the majority won't have the money to afford citizenship there. But purely due to how Nodes work, most people will be in and around metros, just because in order for metros to exist you gotta have a ton of people doing shit in one location the most. And then have 5 of such locations.
  • Lust69Lust69 Member
    I’d like there to be places players don’t know about how fun would it be for example for there to be a hidden dungeon behind a waterfall that only you know about with some nice mobs to kill.
  • StreviStrevi Member
    edited October 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    I have doubts that players will all gather into and live in the high level nodes only.
    I mean, the majority won't have the money to afford citizenship there. But purely due to how Nodes work, most people will be in and around metros, just because in order for metros to exist you gotta have a ton of people doing shit in one location the most. And then have 5 of such locations.

    Wiki info:
    Prices for apartments will fluctuate depending on the number of units already sold in the node.[4]
    ...
    Freeholds may be placed anywhere within the ZOI of a stage 3 node (or higher) so long as they are not in close proximity to any of the following:[56]
    - Other freehold plots.[56]

    If the price of the apartments increases with each apartment rented, it will become fast expensive enough that even high level players will not be able to generate money to pay the rent.
    And the freeholds might still keep the players far enough from the nodes.

    Also when nodes are destroyed, players will have to relocate and might opt for lower level nodes, hoping that those will eventually increase in level.

    There are ways to balance all this to force the players to live in low level nodes too.
    One seems to be the latest increased speed on those ancient roads Steven mentioned during the AMA.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • worddogworddog Member
    Lust69 wrote: »
    I’d like there to be places players don’t know about how fun would it be for example for there to be a hidden dungeon behind a waterfall that only you know about with some nice mobs to kill.

    Due to how the internet works, literally 100% of all content will be data mined at some point after launch. There will be interactive maps showing the location of every thing in the game. There will be guides for literally every piece of content.

    The stuff that you're describing only existed in the early ages of MMOs and sadly cannot be recreated, because it's not about the game its about the players.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Strevi wrote: »
    There are ways to balance all this to force the players to live in low level nodes too.
    One seems to be the latest increased speed on those ancient roads Steven mentioned during the AMA.
    I mean, they can live in those nodes, but if you're a maxxed out player who want to only farm the best content in the game - you'll have to go to a node that has that kind of content. And due to how content will work, you'll need a metro to put some high lvl mobs/bosses into dungeons and in the overworld.
    Lust69 wrote: »
    I’d like there to be places players don’t know about how fun would it be for example for there to be a hidden dungeon behind a waterfall that only you know about with some nice mobs to kill.
    Behind a waterfall is the most obvious place, but yes I'd love some really hidden spots.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    Due to how the internet works, literally 100% of all content will be data mined at some point after launch. There will be interactive maps showing the location of every thing in the game. There will be guides for literally every piece of content.

    The stuff that you're describing only existed in the early ages of MMOs and sadly cannot be recreated, because it's not about the game its about the players.
    This is also true sadly :(
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    But is the rest of the map just unused then? Why have such a big map if it won't be used.
    Other parts of the map are used by lower lvl people. Artisan professions are not linked to adventure lvl so there's gonna be a ton of people who might be artisanal pros but at low lvl. They still might want to go farm some mobs or smth and will have locations to do that in.

    And due to how nodes' ZOIs gonna overlap, those player funnels will still be happening around low lvl locations too, it's just that people will be pushed towards each other because the content is limited.

    There's still quests and general resources that you'll need for various reasons that will have you travel around a bit, but Steven wants to create soft friction between players and that can only be achieved by limited the amount of super valuable content those players can do.

    Are we expecting "low level resources" to be a thing? Because that has never existed in any game I've played. In WoW copper is still being mined by max level players.

    And in New World "low level resources" like iron ore actually became more valuable than high level resources, because they were used in high level crafting recipes. Which I thought Steven said would also be the case for Ashes of Creation.

    Unless they make those resources useless for high level players I imagine high level players will still be gathering them.

    he has said that low level resources will be important and used at high level
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Did a thread on this topic a few weeks ago. Personally, the map size, with regionalized play emphasis, the map is way too small
  • worddogworddog Member
    akabear wrote: »
    Did a thread on this topic a few weeks ago. Personally, the map size, with regionalized play emphasis, the map is way too small

    The map is too small? We haven't even seen any content for the game yet, what do you think they need to make space for?
  • EhrgeizEhrgeiz Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    I have doubts that players will all gather into and live in the high level nodes only.
    I mean, the majority won't have the money to afford citizenship there. But purely due to how Nodes work, most people will be in and around metros, just because in order for metros to exist you gotta have a ton of people doing shit in one location the most. And then have 5 of such locations.


    I dont think so.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Ehrgeiz wrote: »
    I dont think so.
    Could you extrapolate why?
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @worddog regarding your expectation that 'literally 100% of all content will be data mined ...'

    You might be wrong on that. Why? 85 nodes at six levels each is 510 different sets of dungeons and content, plus the castles gives us 515 sets. Sure, many of those will have content mined, but I doubt that all of them will because some nodes, the ones out in the far reaches of the world, will rarely get above level 3 or 4 so their content will remain unknown for a long time.

    But wait, there are six major religions plus Tulnar and the religion of the node might well impact the content, so that is 510 x 7 = 3570 sets of content. Nope, you won't see that all up on the web. And many of the ones you do see up on the web will be inaccurate. Once updates happen, then much of what is displayed on the web will be outdated as well as inaccurate so people who rely on that (in some cases at least) will find that they are hindered rather than helped.

    It is possible that the presence or absence of Thieves' guilds, Crafters' builds, the level of religious buildings, the presence and number of Patron guilds and other yet unknown variables will also influence content, giving us tens of thousands of possible variations of content, much of it inaccurate &/or outdated. Someone trying to find a guide is going to get confuzzled pretty quick.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    tautau wrote: »
    @worddog regarding your expectation that 'literally 100% of all content will be data mined ...'

    You might be wrong on that. Why? 85 nodes at six levels each is 510 different sets of dungeons and content, plus the castles gives us 515 sets. Sure, many of those will have content mined, but I doubt that all of them will because some nodes, the ones out in the far reaches of the world, will rarely get above level 3 or 4 so their content will remain unknown for a long time.

    But wait, there are six major religions plus Tulnar and the religion of the node might well impact the content, so that is 510 x 7 = 3570 sets of content. Nope, you won't see that all up on the web. And many of the ones you do see up on the web will be inaccurate. Once updates happen, then much of what is displayed on the web will be outdated as well as inaccurate so people who rely on that (in some cases at least) will find that they are hindered rather than helped.

    It is possible that the presence or absence of Thieves' guilds, Crafters' builds, the level of religious buildings, the presence and number of Patron guilds and other yet unknown variables will also influence content, giving us tens of thousands of possible variations of content, much of it inaccurate &/or outdated. Someone trying to find a guide is going to get confuzzled pretty quick.

    its not quite like that. lets say you have 15 dungeons, but only 5 will be available at any given time, depending on which nodes are developed.

    monsters will increase in difficulty, or new paths will be open. but its nto going to be all that many combinations. and people will figure all that out during alpha, since there will be wipes and ppl will probably go level in different areas after each wipe, to see whats available and whatnot
  • worddogworddog Member
    tautau wrote: »
    @worddog regarding your expectation that 'literally 100% of all content will be data mined ...'

    You might be wrong on that. Why? 85 nodes at six levels each is 510 different sets of dungeons and content, plus the castles gives us 515 sets. Sure, many of those will have content mined, but I doubt that all of them will because some nodes, the ones out in the far reaches of the world, will rarely get above level 3 or 4 so their content will remain unknown for a long time.

    But wait, there are six major religions plus Tulnar and the religion of the node might well impact the content, so that is 510 x 7 = 3570 sets of content. Nope, you won't see that all up on the web. And many of the ones you do see up on the web will be inaccurate. Once updates happen, then much of what is displayed on the web will be outdated as well as inaccurate so people who rely on that (in some cases at least) will find that they are hindered rather than helped.

    It is possible that the presence or absence of Thieves' guilds, Crafters' builds, the level of religious buildings, the presence and number of Patron guilds and other yet unknown variables will also influence content, giving us tens of thousands of possible variations of content, much of it inaccurate &/or outdated. Someone trying to find a guide is going to get confuzzled pretty quick.

    I don't think you know what data mining is. The content doesn't have to exist in the world for it to be found. People look directly at the code and assets in the game files to figure out what exists, what can exist, and what has been unfinished. We can see developer objects that were never implemented, we can see future assets for upcoming dungeons and raids, etc...

    Does this take time? Yes. Also it would require a large community to be relevant enough to be worth doing. But if Ashes has over a million players this will happen.

    The more popular the game, the more profitable and useful it will be to provide information. There could even be a live map showing all corrupted players in the world (if that system isn't changed.)
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