How do you imagine the healing/mana potion system to balance the PvP?

Hey,

I have posted this topic in Reddit, I would be interested in your opinion here (for those who do not read reddit).

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/yhj5q9/how_do_you_imagine_the_healingmana_potion_system/

- Potions accessible at a NPC or only craftable?

- Lootable on mobs or not?

- Expensive or cheap potions?

- Accessible everywhere or hard to find ?

- Instantly usable in their entirety or progressive?

- With CD or instant use (floodable or not?)

- If delayed, how much time to wait between two pots ?

- Very cumbersome in the inventory or light ?

- Identical potion bonuses for everyone? Or variable according to stats/level/race/class?

- Drinking a potion leaves an empty vial behind? (for sell/refill)

- Can a potion be interrupted? (by taking damage/stun)

- Will there be different sizes of potions? (small/strong/great/...)

- Can you use potions on other players?

- Can you use a potion and cast spells at the same instant?

- What kind of potions (Other than health/mana) ?

- Programmable shortcut keys on any keyboard/mouse key?

- Potions visible in the skill bar? Or anywhere else?

How do you think is the best system for fun and balanced PvP ?

I can add your questions in the OP.

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Comments

Ludullu

NPC sell cheap weak pots, while craftables are stronger.
Mobs drop resources for it.
Cheap ones are weak, expensive are better
Sellable only in scientific nodes or from players
Regen over time and suuuper rare and expensive instant ones
CD of 5 secs between regen timers and instant ones are instant cd
Almost no weight, but limited quantity (especially the instant ones)
Identical for all
No vial, so that it's a resource sink
No interrupts, but any "decrease incoming healing(mana regen)" debuffs apply to potion regen
Yes, at least 3 sizes
No use for others
Potion should be considered a separate casted ability
All kinds of basic stat buffs, but for a fairly short time and a fairly small boost. Also elemental resistance pots
Yeah, I think a separate key should be fine

I'd want this potions design.

Depraved

buff potions with long duration are ok.
health and mana pots should have something like a 5-10 mins cd

Myosotys

Depraved wrote: »

buff potions with long duration are ok.
health and mana pots should have something like a 5-10 mins cd

5 - 10 min CD means potion totally useless in PvP. If someone fight you after you took a pot VS a boss means you cannot use pots during the fight.

I imagine something like 5 sec - 30sec (maybe 5 - 10 min for a divin pots that gives back full health/mana).

Depraved

we already talked about it in the thread you made like 2 months ago.

potion spam in pvp or pve would be terrible for ashes. ashes is about grouping and relying on your teammates, not soloing everything and beating 349784 ppl alone by spamming more potions.

5-10 mins cd allows you to save yourself in an emergency situation, without abusing the spammage.

even 30 second is lame, since it turns pvp into run for 2 mins abusing los, heal back to full then re engage.
fights become less bout skill, build, and gear and more about who is carrying more potions.

Myosotys

Depraved wrote: »

we already talked about it in the thread you made like 2 months ago.

potion spam in pvp or pve would be terrible for ashes. ashes is about grouping and relying on your teammates, not soloing everything and beating 349784 ppl alone by spamming more potions.

5-10 mins cd allows you to save yourself in an emergency situation, without abusing the spammage.

even 30 second is lame, since it turns pvp into run for 2 mins abusing los, heal back to full then re engage.
fights become less bout skill, build, and gear and more about who is carrying more potions.

Im ok for not spamming pots (instant). I liked it some other game but I must admit it wouldn't be the best thing in AOC.
But according to me, using pots the correct way is also a skill.
PvP without pots (or with 1 pot if your CD is finished) will make super shorts fights and advantage too much the range classes.

Ludullu

Myosotys wrote: »

PvP without pots (or with 1 pot if your CD is finished) will make super shorts fights and advantage too much the range classes.

The ttk is already 30+ seconds. That's long as fuck, especially if you consider any counters and proper movements/actions.

Myosotys

NiKr wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

PvP without pots (or with 1 pot if your CD is finished) will make super shorts fights and advantage too much the range classes.

The ttk is already 30+ seconds. That's long as fuck, especially if you consider any counters and proper movements/actions.

Yeah so imagine 5 - 10 min as poster Depraved is suggesting. Archer/mages would be OP classes and no chance for warriors or other classes without range.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

No vial, so that it's a resource sink

So, this would be my default as well - but it got me thinking.

An MMO that uses a system similar to PoE's potions could be interesting.

Basically, rather than going to an alchemist and buying a potion, you go to Verra's version of Corning and you buy a vial, then you go to an alchemist and fill said vial with your potion of choice.

This vial can have effects on it that work on the potion you put inside that vial. It could be that you need to drink less of the potion in order for it to have it's effects, it could be that the effect of the potion is shorter (bad for a buff, potentially good for a HoT), or that the effect of the potion takes longer. Or it could be that you can a secondary effect while the potion in the vial is in effect on you (a small speed boost or some such).

The developers could then allow players to hold 5 of these vials (give them specific slots, and don't allow vials outside of these slots to hold a liquid), and require periodic trips back to the alchemists house in order to fill them up.

I don't expect it to happen in Ashes, but I do think it would be a far more interesting way to do potions.

Ludullu

Myosotys wrote: »

Yeah so imagine 5 - 10 min as poster Depraved is suggesting. Archer/mages would be OP classes and no chance for warriors or other classes without range.

Both archers and mages should have lower defense stats to counterbalance their dps output. So if that fighter or other melee class gets up to the ranged attackers - it immediately lowers the probability of the ranged character winning.

But even outside of that, classes will have different gap closers to prevent exactly the thing you're talking about. Healing potions have barely anything to do with that.

With instant or short cd pots those ranged classes can just kite melees for as long as they want and keep healing any dmg in the meantime. L2 had quite the problem with instant potions because of that.

Noaani wrote: »

I don't expect it to happen in Ashes, but I do think it would be a far more interesting way to do potions.

Yeah, there's a ton of fun stuff that can be done with potions, but until we learn more about alchemy it's hard to say what would fit Ashes and what wouldn't.

Myosotys

NiKr wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

Yeah so imagine 5 - 10 min as poster Depraved is suggesting. Archer/mages would be OP classes and no chance for warriors or other classes without range.

Both archers and mages should have lower defense stats to counterbalance their dps output. So if that fighter or other melee class gets up to the ranged attackers - it immediately lowers the probability of the ranged character winning.

But even outside of that, classes will have different gap closers to prevent exactly the thing you're talking about. Healing potions have barely anything to do with that.

With instant or short cd pots those ranged classes can just kite melees for as long as they want and keep healing any dmg in the meantime. L2 had quite the problem with instant potions because of that.

Noaani wrote: »

I don't expect it to happen in Ashes, but I do think it would be a far more interesting way to do potions.

Yeah, there's a ton of fun stuff that can be done with potions, but until we learn more about alchemy it's hard to say what would fit Ashes and what wouldn't.

Potions have everything to see PvP and chance to reach a caster/archers when you are melee. And less than 5 - 10 min CD doesn't mean « instant ».
5 - 10 min do you realize ? It is like not having potion at all )

Ludullu

Myosotys wrote: »

Potions have everything to see PvP and chance to reach a caster/archers when you are melee. And less than 5 - 10 min CD doesn't mean « instant ».
5 - 10 min do you realize ? It is like not having potion at all )

30+ sec ttk would most likely mean smth like 1-2min ttk in party play. With resurrections and proper healing one fight could go on for even longer. That would mean 1-2 uses of a 5min cd potion.

Here's an example of a party vs party pvp from L2. The game had a faster ttk, but that's counterbalanced against AoC's ttk with CP potions (the yellow bar).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1M1H_Nfsx0

Almost 10 minutes to wipe out archers as mages. Potions have 5min cd (top row, 7-9 position). 2 uses. Fighters are thicker and their party composition would reinforce that feature even more, so the pvp would be even longer.

10min cd pots in Ashes could, in theory, restore % based values instead of flat ones, so that their power was bigger and justified the long cd.

Ironhope

Myosotys wrote: »

- Potions accessible at a NPC or only craftable?

Crafters will make the best stuff, this is already sorted out and I completely agree with the creators on this matter.

Myosotys wrote: »

- Lootable on mobs or not?

To a certain degree, absolutely.

Myosotys wrote: »

- Expensive or cheap potions?

Scarcity will be a drivign factor in the game, as Steven said.
That's very good.

I think some basic potions should have a medium price and then there should be potions you use in important events such as node sieges, castle sieges, boss PVX, etc

Myosotys wrote: »

- Accessible everywhere or hard to find ?

Those who do occasionally drop on mobs should be rares and inferior to the ones made by crafters in general.

I would be okay with rare spawns, elite spaws and bosses droping some cool potions, but nothing to subvert the role of a crafter in the game.

Myosotys wrote: »

- Instantly usable in their entirety or progressive?

Instant use because in the mmo-rpgs I've played, progressive use tends to degenerate into key-smashing to spam the damn thing.

Myosotys wrote: »

- With CD or instant use (floodable or not?)

CD.

Myosotys wrote: »

- If delayed, how much time to wait between two pots ?

Depends on the pot.

If it's a health or mana pot I think 1 minute is more than reasonable.

If it's a +33% HP or +[notable amount of stat increase] or something like that, a more significant timer, such as 15-30 mins even 1 hr.

Myosotys wrote: »

- Very cumbersome in the inventory or light ?

Cumbersome.

Myosotys wrote: »

- Identical potion bonuses for everyone? Or variable according to stats/level/race/class?

I like the idea of them being variable, if the devs have the time for such stuff yeah it would be a cool touch.

*Kaelar Human drinks a potion he just made and starts running 15% faster*

His Tulnar Friend:

gimme, gimme

Tulnar Friend 10 seconds later: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Myosotys wrote: »

- Drinking a potion leaves an empty vial behind? (for sell/refill)

I don't know, I'd rather have the vial be destroyed.

It makes things simpler for players and it increases scarcity.

Keeping vials in your already small inventory to give back to your artisan friend who is offline and might be offline for hours/days is just.... meh.

Myosotys wrote: »

- Can a potion be interrupted? (by taking damage/stun)

I'd prefer them to be instant but sure I could agree with a cast time for 1, 1.5 seconds, as long as it doesn't make you imobile.

Myosotys wrote: »

Will there be different sizes of potions? (small/strong/great/...)

Absolutely there should be. Especially for stuff like health and mana potions.

Myosotys wrote: »

- Can you use potions on other players?

Would be cool to see with the potion launcher haha.

Myosotys wrote: »

- Can you use a potion and cast spells at the same instant?

I don't see why not.

[/quote]
- What kind of potions (Other than health/mana) ?[/quote]

All sorts of potions.
Ones that make you stronger.
Ones that make you do more damage but take more damage.
Ones that make you smarter.
Ones that make you stronger for 15 seconds then weaker for 30 seconds.
Ones that make you light so you can less fall damage.
Ones that turn you into a frog so you can sneak around.
Ones which increase your ability to hold breath underwater.
etc

Myosotys wrote: »

- Programmable shortcut keys on any keyboard/mouse key?

Yeah of course.

Myosotys wrote: »

- Potions visible in the skill bar? Or anywhere else?

Of course.

Myosotys wrote: »

How do you think is the best system for fun and balanced PvP ?

No potions in arenas or duels but usable everywhere else.

Ace1234

Interruptable with somewhat long cooldowns please. Potion spam would ruin a lot of the skill and pacing of combat by being able to run away and heal at all times, in which case you arent really punished for being bad at the rest of the combat system. It can be a thing, but it needs to be as a reward for outskilling you opponent during battle, and should be limited in how forgiving of mistakes it is. Being interruptable would allow for the combat skill to take priority, because if the other person is better than you then you won't be able to rely on your potions if you are being interrupted by attacks. Longer cooldowns can make it less forgiving of mistakes because you can't continuously use it too make your opponents outplays obsolete. It could still be used for clutch plays to reward skill if you are able to avoid your opponents hits, but it wouldn't overly change the sway of the battle when used, to allow the opponent to fight back and compensate for it before the person can just heal again if they "just make one more good play" in a couple of seconds.

Myosotys

Ironhope wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

- Can you use a potion and cast spells at the same instant?

I don't see why not.

In some games the animating of the potion prevent to do anything else (exemple : New World)

Ace1234 wrote: »

Interruptable with somewhat long cooldowns please. Potion spam would ruin a lot of the skill and pacing of combat by being able to run away and heal at all times, in which case you arent really punished for being bad at the rest of the combat system. It can be a thing, but it needs to be as a reward for outskilling you opponent during battle, and should be limited in how forgiving of mistakes it is. Being interruptable would allow for the combat skill to take priority, because if the other person is better than you then you won't be able to rely on your potions if you are being interrupted by attacks. Longer cooldowns can make it less forgiving of mistakes because you can't continuously use it too make your opponents outplays obsolete. It could still be used for clutch plays to reward skill if you are able to avoid your opponents hits, but it wouldn't overly change the sway of the battle when used, to allow the opponent to fight back and compensate for it before the person can just heal again if they "just make one more good play" in a couple of seconds.

The small text is so compact that I couldn't read it...

Mag7spy

Honestly i hate potions that have short cds, just becomes a spam potion fest without care for your actual HP as the potion becomes part of it, rather than something you use once in a while. Effective making content also a lot easier.

Potions imo should be on a much longer cooldown and have more smart uses for them as well as trade offs.

Myosotys

My point of view:

- Potions accessible at a NPC or only craftable ?

Light pots at the NPC only (for noobs under lvl 10). The better pots only craftable

- Lootable on mobs or not?

No with some few exceptions in some specific Area and on specific mobs. To add some few contested areas for PvP (and for those who hate crafting).

- Expensive or cheap potions?

Average potions cheap and good potions rare and expansive.

- Accessible everywhere or hard to find ?

NPC : Light potion in every nods
Average potions craftable with ressources you can find everywhere
Good potions : Only in some few areas

- Instantly usable in their entirety or progressive?

in shot (otherwise it becomes a regenerating potions which could also exist)

- With CD or instant use (floodable or not?)

With CD

- If delayed, how much time to wait between two pots ?

Light noobs potions : 15 - 20 sec
Average potions : 30 - 45 sec
Good potions 1 - 3 min

- Very cumbersome in the inventory or light ?

Depends on other mechanics. If more you have strenght more you have encumbrance in your bag then better with cumbersome (Logical that you carry more if you have more strenght).

- Identical potion bonuses for everyone? Or variable according to stats/level/race/class?

Yes same for everyone

- Drinking a potion leaves an empty vial behind? (for sell/refill)

No, too much garbage items is boring

- Can a potion be interrupted? (by taking damage/stun)

No

- Will there be different sizes of potions? (small/strong/great/...)

Yes :
Light
Normal/average
Serious
Critical
Divine
And same equivalent for mana

- Can you use potions on other players?

No

- Can you use a potion and cast spells at the same instant?

Depend of the animation, but for RP reason I would tell no (if it takes less than a second to drink it).

- What kind of potions (Other than health/mana) ?

magical Resist, regeneration of health/mana (if speed potion, it shouldn't work in PvP coz it's cheated, bonus disapear if someone player hits you).

- Programmable shortcut keys on any keyboard/mouse key?

Make it as custimozable as possible please for we can use our keyboard/mouse the way we want (and and some more potion with CTRL+ another key).

- Potions visible in the skill bar? Or anywhere else?

Another line for all potions. It must be practical and visible.

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