How to curb Hoarding

What are some ways that stop players going all-out when it comes to hoarding?

In Subnautica, the very first item that almost all players tried to hoard were acid mushrooms:
Acid_Mushroom_%2801%29.jpg

Those of you who've played know very well that after about 2 hours (some of us are stubborn) of gameplay, you eventually decide to poop them all onto the floor.
This was EXTREMELY effective at teaching players to only pick up what you actually want.

I think there are 4 things that really helped to drive the point home:

limited inventory space
(most) items do not stack
other stuff we actually need to carry
a legitimate cost to increasing storage capacity

It also helped that you encounter this really early in the game.

As inconvenient as it is, I believe these limitations could help Ashes' players be more tactical about what they pick up. I think it'll also encourage trade - people will want to get things out of their inventories faster.
On the other hand, it won't prevent players from slaughtering anything that moves for exp.

Any other games that punished you for hoarding?

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not concerned about hoarding for monopolization, I'm concerned about EVERYONE having 300 rabbit pelts and therefore nobody ever trades rabbit pelts.

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Comments

Ironhope

I agree with the points made.

I also would like to note that the moment you find a bag, a backpack, something to help you carry more, should be a magical moment.

I think the early lvling classic wow experience was a good one in this sense but even there I felt like carrying a lot of junk got too easy too fast. Or maybe I just got lucky early on with the bag drops from elites and rares and such.

Would have been cool if the whole game maintained that spirit into the late game, as a norm.

Ludullu

As an avid hoarder I'm very very very much so against this suggestion.

And see no real reason why an mmo should prohibit hoarding. If anything, there's literally a reason TO hoard. You might gather some summer plants that are used in an important recipe and then for 3 more seasons there's gonna be no such plants in the world. And now you can sell those plants at an increased price. And the more you hoarded during summer - the more you can sell and profit.

Obviously others can do the same, but not everyone's a hoarder and not everyone thinks that far ahead. But the ones who do will benefit.

maouw

NiKr wrote: »

As an avid hoarder I'm very very very much so against this suggestion.

And see no real reason why an mmo should prohibit hoarding. If anything, there's literally a reason TO hoard. You might gather some summer plants that are used in an important recipe and then for 3 more seasons there's gonna be no such plants in the world. And now you can sell those plants at an increased price. And the more you hoarded during summer - the more you can sell and profit.

Obviously others can do the same, but not everyone's a hoarder and not everyone thinks that far ahead. But the ones who do will benefit.

Ah yeah - that's a good point, off-season selling is important.
You don't think paying for extra storage until off-season is reasonable? I think it would increase the price you'd be able to charge, because it would make off-season items even more scarce.

Ludullu

maouw wrote: »

Ah yeah - that's a good point, off-season selling is important.
You don't think paying for extra storage until off-season is reasonable? I think it would increase the price you'd be able to charge, because it would make off-season items even more scarce.

My freehold will be my storage and I will already be paying taxes for that shit. I don't want to pay even more just for storage.

Ironhope

NiKr wrote: »

And see no real reason why an mmo should prohibit hoarding.

Then you're not going to like this game's system at all because inventories will be small here and you will need mules and caravans to transport any notable amount of stuff, especially resources, for any distance.

As to why.... honestly, it makes people play smarter and appreciate the inventory as a resource.

It makes craftsmen who make bags/backpacks/mules/mule wagons/caravans/ships important.

It also increases scarcity (in a natural and sensible way) which is important for any mmo's economy and immersion, so general health.

Ludullu

Ironhope wrote: »

Then you're not going to like this game's system at all because inventories will be small here and you will need mules and caravans to transport any notable amount of stuff, especially resources, for any distance.

As to why.... honestly, it makes people play smarter and appreciate the inventory as a resource.

It makes craftsmen who make bags/backpacks/mules/mule wagons/caravans/ships important.

It also increases scarcity (in a natural and sensible way) which is important for any mmo's economy and immersion, so general health.

I feel like we're talking about different things. I'm talking about storage and not my inventory.

When I hear "hoarding" I'm not thinking about a kid who has 20 rocks in his pocket, I'm thinking about this shit

We will most likely be able to carry at least several huge rocks and pieces of wood on us, so there's no real realism when it comes to the volume and size of materials. And considering the absence of that realism I see no reason why I couldn't just put insane amounts of stuff into my freehold. Just pack it up to the damn sky.

And as for scarcity - that's not linked to hoarding in any way. Scarcity just means that it's difficult to come by stuff. But you can still hoard it. You can still keep it in your storage forever and never take it out. And maybe after several months or even years you can collect so much of that scarce stuff that to you it wouldn't even feel scarce. But it would've still taken you a loooong time to get to that point, because you hoarded it instead of trading it away or using it.

Ironhope

NiKr wrote: »

I feel like we're talking about different things. I'm talking about storage and not my inventory.

Well, I adressed both together, sorry for not having been clearer.

To be fair, the topic was about inventory hoarding.

NiKr wrote: »

We will most likely be able to carry at least several huge rocks and pieces of wood on us, so there's no real realism when it comes to the volume and size of materials

More realism may not be perfect realism but it is absolutely better than no realism or lesser realism.

The very fact you have to do some notable level of inventory management brings a lot of extra immersion.

NiKr wrote: »

And as for scarcity - that's not linked to hoarding in any way.

And if you can't hoard notable amounts of stuff it means you got to get rid of them either by vendoring them or selling them for scraps meaning you can't flood the market with them later on meaning there will be scarcity which is great for the economy.

NiKr wrote: »

Scarcity just means that it's difficult to come by stuff.

Well yeah if 1.500 dudes don't have huge amounts of X and Y and Z and A and B and C hoarded in their storages and inventories, for them to dump on the market whenever the price goes up by .7% it means you will have scarcity, at least notably more of it.

Ludullu

Ironhope wrote: »

To be fair, the topic was about inventory hoarding.

Yeah, that's on me, cause back when I played subnautica I'd drop stuff on the ground because all of my storage was already full. Like I said, I'm an avid hoarder in games.

Ironhope wrote: »

More realism may not be perfect realism but it is absolutely better than no realism or lesser realism.

The very fact you have to do some notable level of inventory management brings a lot of extra immersion.

But they won't have you only carrying 3 logs of wood or one rock, because that's what your character would be physically able to carry. That's just bad game design outside of super realistic simulator games.

Ironhope wrote: »

And if you can't hoard notable amounts of stuff it means you got to get rid of them either by vendoring them or selling them for scraps meaning you can't flood the market with them later on meaning there will be scarcity which is great for the economy.

No, it would mean that I'll go looking for more points of storage. And considering that node storage is not linked, I literally have 86 points of said storage (86th being my freehold, with potentially 87-88ths being apartment and in-node house).

A storage limit won't stop my hoarding, it'll only make me move around a bit more. But now instead of carrying everything to one point (that being my freehold), I'll just have stuff in different nodes and will use the caravan system less than I would've otherwise.

Ironhope wrote: »

Well yeah if 1.500 dudes don't have huge amounts of X and Y and Z and A and B and C hoarded in their storages and inventories, for them to dump on the market whenever the price goes up by .7% it means you will have scarcity, at least notably more of it.

If those dudes managed to farm up that much rare stuff - they deserve to put it out onto the market at whatever amounts they can. They spent time, potentially money, and had the knowledge of where and when to farm to achieve that amount of rare resources. They deserve to benefit from their actions.

McShave

I like the idea of grinding mobs and collecting trash items until you fill your inventory and go to town and sell your goods to make some quick cash. I don't think gathering will be like this tho. A smart gatherer will collect a few things here and there on their typical adventuring journeys, but the most efficient way of gathering will probably involve being in a party of players and dedicating some time to just gather as many materials as possible. This way you can use a mule to carry more stuff and you have enough players to defend yourselves and your materials in case anyone gets some naughty ideas. This will make "hoarding" less common as it takes steps towards getting the stuff instead of just farming all day, all night. I mean, if you want to do that, more power to you, but there's a good chance you'll get ganked if you are farming for too long. And you'll probably be spending more time running back to/ from your bank or warehouse to empty your bags more than you will be actually farming for materials.

Arya_Yeshe

hoarding is fine, specially if you are carrying loot from the people you killed

maouw

Someone helpfully pointed out that a huge downside to reducing item hoarding is that players start currency hoarding instead, which would directly cause stagnation in the economy.

There are a lot of variables here...

Sathrago

Doesn't node sieging solve these issues?

maouw

Sathrago wrote: »

Doesn't node sieging solve these issues?

Kindof? It's hard to say - coz it depends on how often a node will get destroyed, and how much we manage to recover, and then whether it's better to store everything in one location or spread it out....

Ironhope

NiKr wrote: »

But they won't have you only carrying 3 logs of wood or one rock, because that's what your character would be physically able to carry. That's just bad game design outside of super realistic simulator games.

Sure they won't, but they won't make it possible/accessible to carry any notable amount either, and that's a decent balance of practicality with immersion.

NiKr wrote: »

No, it would mean that I'll go looking for more points of storage.

NiKr wrote: »

And considering that node storage is not linked, I literally have 86 points of said storage (86th being my freehold, with potentially 87-88ths being apartment and in-node house).

1. I hope you like running.
2. I hope you got the time to do that running you like.
3. I hope you don't mind losing part of your stuff when getting killed transporting it from node to node.
4. I hope you're okay with losing notable parts of your storages periodically when said nodes get sieged, conquered and looted.
5. I hope you got the money to pay for all that storage, because I doubt it will come as free

To me that sounds like a lot of hoarding prevention, leading to limited hoarding and balanced out scarcity.

NiKr wrote: »

If those dudes managed to farm up that much rare stuff - they deserve to put it out onto the market at whatever amounts they can.

They don't deserve to hoarde it = undermine the balance of the game's economy.

Gizban

Are

maouw wrote: »

What are some ways that stop players going all-out when it comes to hoarding?

In Subnautica, the very first item that almost all players tried to hoard were acid mushrooms:

Those of you who've played know very well that after about 2 hours (some of us are stubborn) of gameplay, you eventually decide to poop them all onto the floor.
This was EXTREMELY effective at teaching players to only pick up what you actually want.

I think there are 4 things that really helped to drive the point home:
limited inventory space

(most) items do not stack

other stuff we actually need to carry

a legitimate cost to increasing storage capacity

It also helped that you encounter this really early in the game.

As inconvenient as it is, I believe these limitations could help Ashes' players be more tactical about what they pick up. I think it'll also encourage trade - people will want to get things out of their inventories faster.
On the other hand, it won't prevent players from slaughtering anything that moves for exp.

Any other games that punished you for hoarding?

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not concerned about hoarding for monopolization, I'm concerned about EVERYONE having 300 rabbit pelts and therefore nobody ever trades rabbit pelts.

I didn't play that game so not sure what you mean.

Do you mean what a player can carry at a time, or available storage in an apartment/house/freehold?

Tyranthraxus

I didn't think we'd get the opportunity to hoard a lot of different stuff in AoC. Storage limits seem like such a central theme: How much you can carry, how much a Caravan of small/medium/large size can carry, how much you can store in a Warehouse at one time, etc.

As pointed out, sieges are also a constant danger - though I have the feeling that most will end in a successful defense, after everyone learns what happens/needs to happen, during sieges.

Nothing yours truly has personally seen thus far indicates a lot of potential for the *ability* to hoard stuff.

NiKr wrote: »

When I hear "hoarding" I'm not thinking about a kid who has 20 rocks in his pocket, I'm thinking about this shit....

*Is* that a rock in your pocket - or are you just happy to see me?

superhero6785

maouw wrote: »

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not concerned about hoarding for monopolization, I'm concerned about EVERYONE having 300 rabbit pelts and therefore nobody ever trades rabbit pelts.

Why would not trading rabbit pelts be a concern? Trade is meant to be a win-win. You have something I want (materials), and I have something you want (gold / other). If everyone has all the rabbit pelts they could ever need, and nobody needs to trade for them, then who cares? What problem is this causing?

I suspect the real concern is oversaturating the market with a certain material (pelts), causing a crash in market price. But that implies that these pelts are "too plentiful" and easy to obtain, and likely requires some balancing - probably by increasing the time it takes to skin an animal. Increased time investment means fewer people will take the time after a kill to skin the animal, which means fewer people will have a stockpile of pelts, which means people who DO enjoy skinning / tanning will have a lucrative business for their efforts.

DarkTides

I think some reanimated animals are in need! *queue Thriller music*

Azherae

superhero6785 wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not concerned about hoarding for monopolization, I'm concerned about EVERYONE having 300 rabbit pelts and therefore nobody ever trades rabbit pelts.

Why would not trading rabbit pelts be a concern? Trade is meant to be a win-win. You have something I want (materials), and I have something you want (gold / other). If everyone has all the rabbit pelts they could ever need, and nobody needs to trade for them, then who cares? What problem is this causing?

I suspect the real concern is oversaturating the market with a certain material (pelts), causing a crash in market price. But that implies that these pelts are "too plentiful" and easy to obtain, and likely requires some balancing - probably by increasing the time it takes to skin an animal. Increased time investment means fewer people will take the time after a kill to skin the animal, which means fewer people will have a stockpile of pelts, which means people who DO enjoy skinning / tanning will have a lucrative business for their efforts.

Basically all this.

Even basic economy design relative to expected playerbase would fix this.

And you don't even need to worry about 'early on' because of the way Ashes activities are incentivized. Economically this is a non-problem except if a VERY obvious error is made in itemization.

If it is, someone will point it out. There are enough players who do the economy thing seriously that one will see it.

CROW3

I'm going to hoard rabbit pelts now. Just because...

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