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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Insight about dying in games
Arya_Yeshe
Member
There's a recent change in EVE Online's tutorial where you do some PvE combat and they your ship is killed and then your escape pod is blown up and you die. I watched many streams having new players in this situation, they jump on their chairs when they die and see their bodies floating on space, then they spawn and see that this is part of the process and it's ok, then they relax and accept death in the game as just another content
a newbro recently came to play with me and I told him to kill me, kill my escape pod and scoop my dead body and store in his hangar as a souvenir
at first he declined saying that sounded like an offense against me, so I answered it was alright, it's normal
so he proceeded and killed me and stored my dead body in a container in his hangar and started a corpse collection
this changed his perspective in a slap just like that
So for AoC maybe it's a good idea start thinking right now in ways people can deal with pvp deaths, maybe give rewards or tokens, or have achievements if you die 20-50-100 times who knows, or put them in tiny free-for-all skirmishes between newbros
release people from this tension they feel much before they start dying
dying is fine, just respawn and rally people and go hunt the guy
a newbro recently came to play with me and I told him to kill me, kill my escape pod and scoop my dead body and store in his hangar as a souvenir
at first he declined saying that sounded like an offense against me, so I answered it was alright, it's normal
so he proceeded and killed me and stored my dead body in a container in his hangar and started a corpse collection
this changed his perspective in a slap just like that
So for AoC maybe it's a good idea start thinking right now in ways people can deal with pvp deaths, maybe give rewards or tokens, or have achievements if you die 20-50-100 times who knows, or put them in tiny free-for-all skirmishes between newbros
release people from this tension they feel much before they start dying
dying is fine, just respawn and rally people and go hunt the guy
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
1
Comments
it's not forever, it's just a beginner thing, just a small achievement when you started in the game
people should look for their own deaths in a game with no attachments for being alive
that's all
when you die willingly enough times then you don't care anymore
Losing the fear about dying is vital to the game
Mb have a soft faction quest that puts players against each other with a few npcs on both sides and npcs encourage the players to fight. This would not only introduce the flagging mechanics, but would also ingrain the thought of "fighting players is fine and can even be fun" in people's brains. And this could be done in some low lvl instanced dungeon as part of the introductory story, so that everyone experiences it.
nice ideas too
Btw, I live with someone who has a Master in Pedagogy and from what I understood it looks like Inteprid will need to consult a pedagogue at least once
There's a bit of a rift between players and this corruption system is a learning tool that teaches that this or that players are bad, they should be crushed because they are baby eating demons
This increases people's fear a lot, specially fear of dying to such people
But Intrepid could do a few things and let people feel the waters and don't be so anxious, if people become less worried, less anxious, less fearful then Intrepid won't have to a lot of systems and rules just to keep people chill
Steven was a big Archeage player and the OWPvP there wasn't bad imo at least I enjoyed it, I trust they'll have good PvP systems that aren't suffocating for the PvP community and aren't too lax to the point where its a constant free for all.
the corruption system has a reason to exist, but it dangerously teaches people that:
- pvp is griefing
- there's an evil old man in the woods who will rob the flowers you harvested
- everybody who is not doing pve right not is evil and a bad player
etcIt is important that people learn early on that pvp is fine, it is doable, there's ways to do it
let them lose the neurotic fear about it
@Arya_Yeshe
Having people lose their fear of combat or dying isn't the same as teaching people that PvP isn't bad imo. The people who are hard against PvP and wish it didn't even exist will never have any in-game system or tutorial or experience change their mind from that.
There's nothing inherently wrong with PvP, just people who don't want it to exist or want their own separate PvE server, which are bad approaches.
The perfect balance between PvP and those who like it and those who don't lies in the corruption system and how lax it is in flagging and killing and/or how suffocating it is to the aggressor. How will it treat a situation where the victim keeps coming back over and over, that's not fair to the player who clearly has the upper hand because now THEY are the one being griefed. And with Stevens comment of banning griefers, would Intrepid side with the one being killed or the one doing the killing. If you're in a small grinding zone that could realistically only accommodate you and any more than that would be inefficient money/xp per hour, and someone continuously tries to force their way in only for you to kill them over and over and they have no intent to fight back, would they not be abusing the corruption system, whos the real griefer in this situation?
In Ultima Online you become red and the most abusive people in UO are actually blue
In EVE Online you do low sec pvp and you eventually become red too, then people just start avoiding you
and so on
For sure a big deal is just the education provided by the game's design and it's UI
In Counter-Strike people shoot each other and it's fine, in their heads they are prepared for it
For sure its pedagogic issue and many things Steven said about griefing makes no sense to me, like "banning griefers"... what kind of greifers?
It's best for the game if Intrepid babysit people into PvP than trying to monitor and resolving every quarrel among players
It's just education
When you accept that dying is ok, there's barely any "griefing", except for PvE griefers who don't die
Yeah I could agree with that being said about Counter strike, you know you're meant to kill each other in that game, although a bit different in a MMO where people may play with the intention of not ever wanting to PvP they'll just complain if they ever die. I could see how the system easing the player into the idea of death and teaching them saying hey if you die this will happen, so the player is less surprised and upset when it happens out of nowhere.
No participation trophies for dying in PvP. Just apply yourself, get better, and hunt down reds when you are.
Yes, people see its meant for killing, but any MMO can be for it too
It's just education, I dont do pve in Guild Wars 2 and I didnt in Ultima Online
That's exactly the misconception, go kill "what is scary"
The issue isn't that players have a fear of dying, it is that they have no fear of dying. In many games, dying can be used as a means of fast travel - that is how trivially many MMO players look at it.
The reason for this is simple - many MMO's have no penalty for dying. No penalty means no fear.
Since players dont fear dying, it means developers cant implement content that is hard, as the only thing that makes content hard is the desire to not die to it. If you dont fear death, content isnt hard, just repetitive (this is a part of the reason I will always insist some games simply do not have hard PvE).
If an MMO wants to instill fear of dying in to it's players, it doesn't offer some stupid quest or story about it, it increases the penalty associated with dying. Thus, rather than fearing a thing because some quest told you that you should, you fear it because you worked out for yourself that it is a bad thing to do.
Ask your pedagogue friend which would be a better learning outcome - being told a thing is bad, or realizing a thing is bad from first hand experience.
Now, if - for some totally unknown reason - a developer wanted to reduce the fear of dying (this is not Ashes we are talking about at this point), then all they need to do is reduce ethe penalty of death to the point where is just doesn't matter. Players then realize death isn't bad all by themselves, they don't need the game to tell them that.
On the other hand, if the game tells you death isn't bad, but then has a harsh death penalty, players will still come to the conclusion that fits their experience, rather than just listening to what they have been told.
As to your friend in EVE, they probably thought that killing you would result in a penalty to you, and so were hesitant. When you informed them that it was ok (as in, that the penalty wasn't all that great), they were then fine with it.
What about this is a misconception?
It is essentially what the game is.