MMO post idea - off topic from Ashes of Creation

I just want to hear your thoughts about this MMO idea I had recently.

I came up with this idea of not having to do questing in MMO because when I think of vanilla WoW quests, I get bored just thinking about them. When I compare New world or gw2 or ESO (games that I tried) I also don't get this feeling that it is something interesting. When I think about what is interesting in MMO I feel that end game and crafting is fun and progression and preparation that you have to do in order to play actual content (PVP or PVE).

What if devs introduced 1h long movie (animated) that you can skip and watch later or watch when you launch game. After that movie you would create char and enter world with basic level gear. Then you could have content like gearing up from basic to rare quality gear in same speed as TBC PvP gearing. You could do PVE with different stats to PVP that is better for PVE, but PVP would have stats like TBC PVP stats and more stamina for health. When you obtain rare quality gear it would be only 7% stronger then basic quality, only difference is that it has crit/haste/hit stats and PVP resilience (reduced to be critted and reduces dmg of DoTs). Then when you get rare quality gear you could choose to gear up more and get epic quality that is harder to get (maybe unlockable vendor if you do some set of achievements PVE or PVP that also has currency to buy gear where you farm these currencies in PVP or PVE content and buy recipes that are expensive to craft). Then comes legendary gear that is the hardest to get (but I don't have any ideas how you can make that harder to get). Every next quality of gear is 7% stronger then quality under it.

Progression would be gathering and crafting. You would level professions and gathering and make very strong consumables via alchemy or food via cooking that has so big of an impact on gameplay that it is almost mandatory for content. Many professions would be available and many gear crafts of rare quality which again takes little bit of time to get full set. (considering that epic quality comes from recipes and currency from vendors it would be fine if rare quality gear can be considered as starter gear set for all newcomers). I would make it so that it takes around 3h per 1 piece of gear farming in open world of rare quality. Only professions would have levels and new recipes for only alchemy/cooking/enchanting would only be improved from reputation vendor that you can unlock after doing some tasks to make effort in your settlement. (different settlements would have different recipes, all tied to lore of races).

Content: Basically AoC content in open world with instanced arenas and battlegrounds as well as dungeons that are not linear and are long (around 3h to finish). Like BRD dungeon in vanilla WoW. Dungeons would have all kinds of traps and would be content for 10 men (some for 5 men that are faster to finish - 1h).

What do you think about this new MMO ideas where there are no quests to do that are boring like collecting x number of stuff or killing x number of NPCs, even quests that have little bit of lore and such are boring because tasks are always boring, so you end up just running around gathering info about lore while doing boring stuff (at least for me).

I don't know why, but it feels so dull to play MMOs after I grew up. Even when I started MMOs (TBC wow) I felt this urge to quit, but I didn't because some of my older friends were playing it and I felt like if I quit I would not belong to spend time with them, I always wanted to play with older people (I was 10 while they were 16-20 years old - we met in video game place, you know that place where you play games together with other people and there are like 10-15 computers and such)

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Azherae

Ok boomer.

More seriously, this is what multiple games used to be.

It's just that no one has made this type in a long time, because this type of game does not 'respect player's time'.

Other than that, congratulations on 'wanting the core gameplay that people enjoyed for years'.

I am deeply and truly sorry that you ended up in WoW instead of EQ or FFXI where it genuinely sounds like you'd have fit much better and felt much happier.

New off-topic post!

VekoKrava

Azherae wrote: »

I am deeply and truly sorry that you ended up in WoW instead of EQ or FFXI where it genuinely sounds like you'd have fit much better and felt much happier.

New off-topic post!

Yea, I played WoW for 15 years and after classic Vanilla I tried TBC and it did not feel the same, you didn't need all the preparation in order to do dungeons/raids and it sucked. I played retail and I was in that bubble of wow and I did not know for other games until recently when I tried new world, gw2 and eso. I didn't play eso too much, but these games feel the same to WoW, with side quests that are boring and little to no lore, and a main quest that has great lore but boring tasks (I mean WoW only, gw2 had great quests and for eso I can't speak much, new world had similar to WoW main quest and it felt boring, basic kill/gather quests with little lore when you speak to NPCs)

I don't know how everquest is made, mind if you explain it to me? This idea I never seen before where you could watch movie for lore and do end game tasks for gameplay, with awesome instanced content and PvP / PvE and open world similar to AoC, but only thing would be different is that you would need food/flasks,potions that are really strong, and when I say really, I really mean it, so much that it would be game breaking if you had flask with you or food buff.

Arya_Yeshe

@VekoCrnogorac I think you don't know what you want.

Because you proposed one good thing that is not having a bunch of gathering and killing 10 mobs of this type and then 10 mobs of that type.... those are ok ideas and most people would agree with yout.

Everything else about what you said is bad and are exactly the stuff that made all the other MMOs dull, I'm not trying to be an ass and there's a reason why I am saying this.

This is why: Instances is where grind happens and the grind for gold, gear and tokens is completely empty of player driven content, this is why MMOs became bad, it's because they went dry on player driven content and full of tasteless grinds.

Unfortunatelly no company can deliver content that is superior to content brought by players, because the players bring what is right for themselves and this is completely unpredictable.

Player driven content is what made MMOs good, I just need game mechanics and systems from the devs... let me define:

who are the good guys
who are the bad guys
where is the gray area
what should I be doing
should I grind?
should I declare war on someone and hunt them?
etc

If a company delivers systems and mechanics then the players will make the game great

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I am deeply and truly sorry that you ended up in WoW instead of EQ or FFXI where it genuinely sounds like you'd have fit much better and felt much happier.

New off-topic post!

Yea, I played WoW for 15 years and after classic Vanilla I tried TBC and it did not feel the same, you didn't need all the preparation in order to do dungeons/raids and it sucked. I played retail and I was in that bubble of wow and I did not know for other games until recently when I tried new world, gw2 and eso. I didn't play eso too much, but these games feel the same to WoW, with side quests that are boring and little to no lore, and a main quest that has great lore but boring tasks (I mean WoW only, gw2 had great quests and for eso I can't speak much, new world had similar to WoW main quest and it felt boring, basic kill/gather quests with little lore when you speak to NPCs)

I don't know how everquest is made, mind if you explain it to me? This idea I never seen before where you could watch movie for lore and do end game tasks for gameplay, with awesome instanced content and PvP / PvE and open world similar to AoC, but only thing would be different is that you would need food/flasks,potions that are really strong, and when I say really, I really mean it, so much that it would be game breaking if you had flask with you or food buff.

I can't speak for EQ strongly enough because I didn't personally play it. You would have to call @Noaani for that, I think.

I can only tell you what FFXI is like when I want to do anything serious.

Step 1 is to figure out which food I need to eat for the content.

Yes, that's step ONE. Because food buffs are things like "+20% Attack + stats + minor debuff resistance" vs "+15% accuracy and HP".

Step 2 is to make sure I feel like I'm the right level for the content for my personal skill.

You cannot gain EXP by questing. Ever. So you don't do it if you don't feel like it. It is never a requirement. Get to the quests when you feel like it. If you never feel like it, fine, only about 2 things in the game rely on the benefit from questing (fame) and you can just repeat a specific quest over and over (it doesn't even feel THAT unrealistic) to do so.

Step 3 is to make sure that I have all the relevant skills required for using the weapons the content requires. Normally this isn't a change from my main weapon, so it's not an issue, but IF I needed to use a different weapon that I hadn't used enough, then I would have it at too low a level and my Accuracy and Attack ratings with it would be lower.

You have to raise those skills by fighting equal or stronger opponents (relative to your skill with the weapon, not your current total level).

If I don't have enough of any of these things, I can try anyway, but I might just die. I could level up more probably, but since leveling up does not grant ANY additional untrained skills, I could level from level 20 to 30 so that I could fight a new enemy, but IF I somehow did that without leveling up my main weapon's skill in battle...

I'm only marginally stronger than I was at level 20 when it comes to actually hitting the target. Mages have it better here, but... Elemental Magic skill exists too. Technically probably harder to level up.

Quests, Missions, and Story are generally small cutscenes. Can you skip them? Not really, except that, again... you never had to do any quests to begin with. Do them when you feel like it.

There are nearly no quests in the entire game that say 'kill X of Y'. Sometimes you get a 'kill these until this item drops and bring it to me'. These are also pretty rare, but definitely about 20% of quests, I think. But, again... you could just... not care. If you want to level up, fight mobs. If you keep dying to them, find food. If that's not enough, fight weaker mobs or buy/make better gear.

Instanced Content: Too much of it to count.
PvP: Nope. Restricted to only two non-critical things, but I enjoyed it whenever I played it until the release of one broken class later.
Lore: It's a Final Fantasy game. If unfamiliar with those, yes, it is a LOT of lore. Technically, though, FFXI isn't actually 'a Final Fantasy Game' because those aren't 'real' in the sense of 'what they are', they all change.

Final Fantasy 11 is actually designed at its core as 'Legend of Mana Online', which is probably why it has this design type.

You can still play the game of course but, most MMOs make changes to make the game more accessible, more easy to solo, more 'respect for players time', and to increase their mass appeal in a market full of WoW and similar games, so it does have some changes that will make it feel more like those games.

Some are nice, some are neutral, some are negatives for nostalgic people. In the end though, the game is 'dead' economy and low-level player-wise, and while it is good, it's a product of its time. I wouldn't necessarily suggest trying to play it now unless you:

1) Really don't mind solo content or have a bunch of friends you could ask to play with you who also don't like to rush through games.
2) Somehow enjoy games that are innately frustrating due to their challenge level or tendency to not explain much to you as you go.

If somehow THAT sounds good to you... give it a shot I guess, and just ignore anything related to... 'Records of Eminence' I think? EQ might be better, though, I think it is more specifically TRYING to recapture the feeling, more like Classic WoW tried to do.

VekoKrava

@Azherae I think I understand what you are saying as why these games have similar elements as ''my'' idea.

as for @Arya_Yeshe 's comment, I think that it is debatable, I would players give both AoC content and instanced content, although it might be because I played WoW for so long, I really enjoyed instanced content with slower pace grind, not too toxic and to rush it if you know what I mean. I liked Battlegrounds the most in WoW (after world PvP that I experienced in classic and my youth), areas were also good, but that's only because of WoW's combat, in other games I don't like arenas at all (2v2 - 3v3)

I think having both of these variations to gear up is good for any type of MMO, the more content you have the more players can play the way they want (considering that game has old-school vibe for my taste - I don't like what wow has become or any gacha game)

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

@Azherae I think I understand what you are saying as why these games have similar elements as ''my'' idea.

as for @Arya_Yeshe 's comment, I think that it is debatable, I would players give both AoC content and instanced content, although it might be because I played WoW for so long, I really enjoyed instanced content with slower pace grind, not too toxic and to rush it if you know what I mean. I liked Battlegrounds the most in WoW (after world PvP that I experienced in classic and my youth), areas were also good, but that's only because of WoW's combat, in other games I don't like arenas at all (2v2 - 3v3)

I think having both of these variations to gear up is good for any type of MMO, the more content you have the more players can play the way they want (considering that game has old-school vibe for my taste - I don't like what wow has become or any gacha game)

Well, Arya has some very ... specific opinions... on what makes good gameplay.

I would agree that conflict is required, but not that it must all be contestable.

That is because of something very important though, that I hope to see in Ashes, but most people don't experience, because of the same thing we are talking about.

If PvE and instances are difficult enough to require food and alchemy buffs, the limit on 'how often you can do them' becomes 'how much money do you have to do them'. You can't just 'throw yourself at the problem until you eventually win' if you don't have close to the required skills. This applies to any kind of Preparation.

You'd just run out of money.

When games took 'Preparation' out of the content, they also removed a lot of the options people had for interaction and player conflict.

If there's no Defense Buff food on the Auction House today, then you can't beat the content.

But I'm sure by now you've heard the classic line...

"Can't I just play the game?"

VekoKrava

Azherae wrote: »

Well, Arya has some very ... specific opinions... on what makes good gameplay.

When games took 'Preparation' out of the content, they also removed a lot of the options people had for interaction and player conflict.

This is exactly what I am talking about. I stopped retail WoW because when I tried classic vanilla in 2019 I experienced something bigger and that is preparation and danger in open world. I would go farm gold or resources for my preparation or to help guild and that creates player friction, someone can attack you in farming areas and that is core of my point as why MMO needs to have that preparation. I like classic MMOs because they did not create this rush toward ''content''. Theme park MMOs are what those players want if they do not want to do preparation and put them to danger in open world. We need as a community to put word out there for people that market their games, is it MMO or theme park MMO, it is very different and if we put word out there we will be able to differentiate games and not spend money on MMOs that we do not want to play. This is main reason why I think Steven made good call to say that his vision of his game is not ''theme park'' which means its not for everyone, and that is fine and that is good marketing. I just hope he sticks to his ideas and never create new age MMO that is similar to WoW or guild wars 2. Players need to make content and it should happen in open world even while farming.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Well, Arya has some very ... specific opinions... on what makes good gameplay.

When games took 'Preparation' out of the content, they also removed a lot of the options people had for interaction and player conflict.

This is exactly what I am talking about. I stopped retail WoW because when I tried classic vanilla in 2019 I experienced something bigger and that is preparation and danger in open world. I would go farm gold or resources for my preparation or to help guild and that creates player friction, someone can attack you in farming areas and that is core of my point as why MMO needs to have that preparation. I like classic MMOs because they did not create this rush toward ''content''. Theme park MMOs are what those players want if they do not want to do preparation and put them to danger in open world. We need as a community to put word out there for people that market their games, is it MMO or theme park MMO, it is very different and if we put word out there we will be able to differentiate games and not spend money on MMOs that we do not want to play. This is main reason why I think Steven made good call to say that his vision of his game is not ''theme park'' which means its not for everyone, and that is fine and that is good marketing. I just hope he sticks to his ideas and never create new age MMO that is similar to WoW or guild wars 2. Players need to make content and it should happen in open world even while farming.

We can only wait and see. Steven has a lot of ambitious ideas and a lot of commitment to certain things.

The question is if he and Intrepid have the same commitment to THIS sort of thing, because there's no way to know if he actually enjoys this sort of thing or not, yet.

But with the number of professions and implications, I hope to see at least a fifth of what I'm used to. At this point, I'll settle for that, especially at launch.

I wouldn't worry about it, just make sure to give your feedback when the time comes. If you realize that too many other people decide 'no, we don't want food buffs to be strong/mandatory', just wait for the next game, I guess.

VekoKrava

No, this game will be great, but I am hoping to see some kind of preparation before gameplay.

I think MMOs should have survival/ish kind of vibe and to have content revolve around crafting. It creates realistic feeling to the game and it feels important to you because of how rich you are in game.

In order to do that and to have good economy, buffs should be strong and pretty rare, not hard-core rare, but rare enough to have good economy for 1 health potion. If it is available to everyone then it won't have good economy. Vanilla WoW had great ideas because they did not give mana potions from profession trainer, instead they made a dungeon recipe drop around 5% drop chance or less.

Noaani

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I don't know how everquest is made, mind if you explain it to me?

I've not really read the discussion, but as far as I can see, it is about leveling up, and Azherae has asked if I can go over how this is done in EQ.

I'm going to go over EQ2 specifically, and mostly just talk about the differences between it and WoW.

WoW has solo quests and grinding as the only real means for leveling. There aren't really options within each of these, if you are questing you follow *the* quest path and if you are grinding, you grind *the* instance.

In EQ2, there are 5 or so solo quest paths you can take to level up, rather than one per faction. This in itself means you dont get bored of doing the same quests on alts. These quest paths do all serve the function of assisting playeras in leveling, and as such they do tend to drag players slowly around the game world (or parts of it). It is all still very sequential though, as level quests should be.

For grinding, it is viable to do this solo on overland content (this is a little slower on some classes, but can be VERY fast on others). As for grinding in a group, rather than using instanced content, tou will be grinding open dungeon content mostly, with some overland and instanced content thrown in as well. There is enough of this content to be able to level 3 characters just via group grinding to not touch the same content twice (there is one dungeon you could walk in to at level 32, explore for a few weeks and emerge at level 50, without having seen it all).

Then there are Heritage and Signature quests. These are longer quests that do not have the goal of assisting players in leveling. They are there to disperse lore, to be interesting content, and to give players great rewards. Many of these require raiding (the lowest such raid is for level 20 players). This is content that people roll alts just to do again, as people actually, genuinely enjoy these quests.

There are also open world raid encounters in EQ2 starting from level 16.

All of the above leaves EQ2 leveling as being as varied and interesting as playing at the level cap is.

Arya_Yeshe

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

as for @Arya_Yeshe 's comment, I think that it is debatable, I would players give both AoC content and instanced content, although it might be because I played WoW for so long, I really enjoyed instanced content with slower pace grind, not too toxic and to rush it if you know what I mean. I liked Battlegrounds the most in WoW (after world PvP that I experienced in classic and my youth), areas were also good, but that's only because of WoW's combat, in other games I don't like arenas at all (2v2 - 3v3)

20% of AoC's dungeons are instanced anyway, they will be there for the people in the mood

the problem is that you proposed a horrible game design view, for a few minutes i had to stop and wonder if you are being serious or just typing some bad jokes and were trolling everybody

I'm sorry, but I seriously i thought your post was a joke, because you started the thread with all the stuff that made other games become boring, your suggestions are the recipe for creating a generic flavorless MMO

AoC is going in a good direction already, it's fine, it's the most interesting game I've seen in years

VekoKrava

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

the problem is that you proposed a horrible game design view, for a few minutes i had to stop and wonder if you are being serious or just typing some bad jokes and were trolling everybody

I'm sorry, but I seriously i thought your post was a joke, because you started the thread with all the stuff that made other games become boring, your suggestions are the recipe for creating a generic flavorless MMO

AoC is going in a good direction already, it's fine, it's the most interesting game I've seen in years

What kind of ideas were making other MMOs boring? Is it about preparation and crafting? How is that boring?
If you make consumables so strong that it is mandatory to farm them in free time then you would go solo or with guild to farm consumables which would lead to player friction because there is open world PvP. It only makes MMO more realistic in sense that before going to instanced PvE content you need to prepare your self which is core of RPG in MMO games. RPG strives on crafting and progressing as for preparing. This content is not making other games bad because newer MMOs avoid to have this kind of content just because people complained before and they want instant content without any preparation being made. They want to play MMOs as if they are FPS or MOBA games, to log on and instant que into gameplay. MMOs should have realistic game design in order to have RPG in them. Role playing core foundation is to have realism in games, that's why this genre is different to other genres, because you have to work and grind. If you don't like this, then you might be into retail wow which is theme park (new age) MMO.

Or is it because I said to avoid dull questing maybe make a movie introduction to lore, so that you can skip all leveling which for most parts I find dull because I critic it from pure reason. Going from quest to quest to fetch things or kill x number of mobs with minimal gameplay is not fun at all. If done first time this can be fun because you are exploring world, but if done with alts it can be super dull because you remember most things.

Take on exploring: If you think you won't be able to explore open world if you had this movie introduction and not leveling process then you are so wrong. You will explore world via gathering/crafting and PvP/PvE as AoC has these systems in open world. You will explore while doing settlement progression and you would level reputation from doing these settlements tasks to progress it to further development.

I was aiming for AoC content, but without leveling. Only pure content.

Again, I am criticizing leveling from point of reason, why would you go learn about lore if you had to do dull tasks, if you remove tasks that are dull you are only left with dialog, since tasks are dull then why not introduce movie like World of Warcraft movie or Arcane Riot movie (LoL). I think people would get so much more emotional connection with lore and characters then with doing dull quests.

Child Item