In this game abilities have cooldowns, so what's the point in having to manage your mana at all? Seems pointless, just a throwback to an older time that adds no value.
Mana is not endless though? You still need to manage your use? Weird take imo.
Well why not make mana endless? What purpose does managing mana serve?
Abilities have cooldowns, or at least they did in a video, so why bother having a mana bar at all? Cooldowns will make it so players can't spam powerful abilities anyways, so I don't see the point in having a mana or stamina bar.
Mana and cooldowns serve different purposes.
Cooldowns exist so you don't just spam your most powerful spell (or combination of spells) over and over. You can't cast it if it has to cool down. Damage/cast time would be the only determining factor in what spell you cast if cooldowns aren't in a game.
Mana is a layer on top of that, it is a long term consideration. It is something you keep an eye on for a few minutes in the future, rather than right now.
Saying we should get rid of one is kind of like saying "we already have armor rating, why do we need block and dodge as well?".
Imagine how fun it would be having no cooldowns as we have today, but if you repeat the same spell then it spends 50% more mana, the mana increase would also stack up to 1000%.
The third time you cast the same spell in a row then it spend 200% the mana for that spell
So the "cooldown" would be for being able to cast the same spell again without spending extra mana, but you would be allowed to recast it as much as you please until you run out of mana
This would be actually fun for mages that are glass cannons, they would deal insane damage and then die
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
It should be balanced to a degree where you cant hold a laser beam for 5 minutes straight or spam fireballs indefinitely, and where you have to actually use your weapon and weapon skills a little while waiting for mana to regen several times during a big boss fight (10-20 minutes + fight) and 1-2-3 times or such in a short pvp fight (5 minutes), for example.
Potions are basically a skill. Id rather opt for no potions that simply regen health or mana immediately, and rather incentivizes players to manage their health and mana resources better.
In this game abilities have cooldowns, so what's the point in having to manage your mana at all? Seems pointless, just a throwback to an older time that adds no value.
Mana is not endless though? You still need to manage your use? Weird take imo.
Well why not make mana endless? What purpose does managing mana serve?
Abilities have cooldowns, or at least they did in a video, so why bother having a mana bar at all? Cooldowns will make it so players can't spam powerful abilities anyways, so I don't see the point in having a mana or stamina bar.
Mana and cooldowns serve different purposes.
Cooldowns exist so you don't just spam your most powerful spell (or combination of spells) over and over. You can't cast it if it has to cool down. Damage/cast time would be the only determining factor in what spell you cast if cooldowns aren't in a game.
Mana is a layer on top of that, it is a long term consideration. It is something you keep an eye on for a few minutes in the future, rather than right now.
Saying we should get rid of one is kind of like saying "we already have armor rating, why do we need block and dodge as well?".
You're describing what mana is, we all know what mana is. What I'm saying is the minigame you're describing of managing mana adds no value. It's a holdover from older game design.
There's a difference between block and dodge if you can make a build around those stats, so a block or dodge build. If you can't? Well, then yes it serves no purpose and you should only have 1. Block and dodge is a good example because those stats aren't in many games, and in a lot of games they're combined into a stat like mitigation.
You're describing what mana is, we all know what mana is. What I'm saying is the minigame you're describing of managing mana adds no value. It's a holdover from older game design.
I'd rather have mana management and higher frequency of ability use than having CDs determine how often I can use a skill in a battle.
And if you want to have super short cds on abilities - I don't believe that it'd be possible to balance that kind of design well enough across all classes.
Also, as has been shown in this thread, there's a ton of design potential in mana management, while just having CD rotations has fucking nothing to do with any good design imo. That shit's boring as hell. Of course you could have abilities that increase or decrease someone's CDs, but you could already have those with mana management on top of it.
You're describing what mana is, we all know what mana is. What I'm saying is the minigame you're describing of managing mana adds no value. It's a holdover from older game design.
I'd rather have mana management and higher frequency of ability use than having CDs determine how often I can use a skill in a battle.
And if you want to have super short cds on abilities - I don't believe that it'd be possible to balance that kind of design well enough across all classes.
Also, as has been shown in this thread, there's a ton of design potential in mana management, while just having CD rotations has fucking nothing to do with any good design imo. That shit's boring as hell. Of course you could have abilities that increase or decrease someone's CDs, but you could already have those with mana management on top of it.
Yea, I agree. I'm just going off the ranger stream where abilities had recast timers, so assume mana users will be the same.
I liked ESO's implementation of mana/stamina that someone else mentioned. Fairly fast regen with no recast timers, so you could dump your mana as a mage/healer.
I hope AoC implements something similar to ESO for mana users, then mana vs stamina users would differ in how they played which would make things interesting. Stamina can have recast timers making them sustained DPS and mana users don't giving them more burst potential.
In this game abilities have cooldowns, so what's the point in having to manage your mana at all? Seems pointless, just a throwback to an older time that adds no value.
Mana is not endless though? You still need to manage your use? Weird take imo.
Well why not make mana endless? What purpose does managing mana serve?
Abilities have cooldowns, or at least they did in a video, so why bother having a mana bar at all? Cooldowns will make it so players can't spam powerful abilities anyways, so I don't see the point in having a mana or stamina bar.
Mana and cooldowns serve different purposes.
Cooldowns exist so you don't just spam your most powerful spell (or combination of spells) over and over. You can't cast it if it has to cool down. Damage/cast time would be the only determining factor in what spell you cast if cooldowns aren't in a game.
Mana is a layer on top of that, it is a long term consideration. It is something you keep an eye on for a few minutes in the future, rather than right now.
Saying we should get rid of one is kind of like saying "we already have armor rating, why do we need block and dodge as well?".
You're describing what mana is, we all know what mana is. What I'm saying is the minigame you're describing of managing mana adds no value. It's a holdover from older game design.
Go back to my first post in this thread detailing mana management in EQ2. Mana management has an impact on your group setup within a raid, your raid setup as a whole, your gear selection, your spec selection, consumables,quests you place value on completing, it adds mechanics that are used on boss fights.
I would argue there are few things in an MMORPG that are as impactful as mana - HP being about the only one I can think of.
The very concept of considering mana as a mini-game as opposed to a vital aspect of combat along side hit points is foreign to me.
There's a difference between block and dodge if you can make a build around those stats, so a block or dodge build. If you can't? Well, then yes it serves no purpose and you should only have 1. Block and dodge is a good example because those stats aren't in many games, and in a lot of games they're combined into a stat like mitigation.
As an aside to this before I start, I've never put any time in to a game that combines block and dodge in with mitigation. Block and dodge should be preventing a hit from dealing any damage to your hit point pool, while mitigation should be reducing the damage done to your hit point pool.
That said, I agree with the above in general, if a game doesnt have a reason for having both block and dodge, it shouldnt have them both.
If Ashes doesnt have decent mechanics around mana, there is no need to have mana.
However, there are plenty of examples of decent mechanics around mana, and Intrepid should make use of them.
Based on your comments in regards to block and dodge - I simply have to assume you agree.
"no-mana/unlimited mana" = GW2 at release. GW2 also had limited healing
"no-cooldowns" = ESO
Neither approach is great IMO, and a blend of both is best. Cooldowns for burst and control windows. IE, a 4s stun on a 30s cooldown, or 15s damage buff on a 2 min cooldown. Cooldowns for defensive "oh-$#!^" moments. Both proactive and reactive.
But for attacks that are mostly about damage, a mana cost that is relative to some general damage-per-mana benchmark. Same goes for heals. Simplified: low mana hots, high mana burst heals. We still don't know how much control we'll have over our character's mana regen.
Then there's cast-time. So many variables when designing a skill: cooldown, cost, range, cast/animation time, damage/heal, special effect, etc. It would be a shame to just throw one of those out.
Also, do we know that all classes will have a mana resource? There's rage, energy, builder/spender, etc as other resources.
Ooooh, even a combo system. An ability that costs 500 mana if it has not been cast in the last 10 seconds, but costs 1000 mana if it was just cast, and is being cast again. Mana cost is on a sliding scale from 1000 to 500 depending on how long the delay. Not a mechanic that is useful for DoTs
Hum, that's interesting. That makes me think they'll rework it before launch and what's currently implemented is a placeholder.
And why do you think this way? Afaik neither L2 nor AA had those kinds of additional class-based resources (outside of maybe consumables). And I don't think Intrepid have ever mentioned their intent to add those kinds of resources to the game. Other games might've done it and some people might like it, but what are your basing your supposition on?
Hum, that's interesting. That makes me think they'll rework it before launch and what's currently implemented is a placeholder.
And why do you think this way? Afaik neither L2 nor AA had those kinds of additional class-based resources (outside of maybe consumables). And I don't think Intrepid have ever mentioned their intent to add those kinds of resources to the game. Other games might've done it and some people might like it, but what are your basing your supposition on?
We actually have outright confirmation from Steven that all classes will use mana.
That isnt to say other resources cant be added, just that all classes will use mana.
I hope for a system where both HP and MP potions will be accessible to everyone and recover a substantial amount of HP & MP, while the potion will have a high cooldown for the next time it can be used.
I don't like potion spams, but having no HP or MP potions and being hard to recover your HP & MP is way too harsh and it devalues the alchemist profession as well.
Imo, alchemists should be able to create both HP & MP potions.
The better the alchemist skill is, the more potent the created potion will be and the lower the cooldown for using the said potion will be.
After all, when you think of an alchemist, you think of their ability to create potions. HP & MP potions being one of the many potions they can create.
I hope their ability to create the said potions won't be restricted.
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Harsh mana is fine. Having a class that recharges, not so much. I remember controller class in DCUO, and you were just a walking battery. The desire for topping off mana was insatiable, and none of your other cool abilities mattered much in groups, just rotate the mana top off abilities.
I hope for a system where both HP and MP potions will be accessible to everyone and recover a substantial amount of HP & MP, while the potion will have a high cooldown for the next time it can be used.
I don't like potion spams, but having no HP or MP potions and being hard to recover your HP & MP is way too harsh and it devalues the alchemist profession as well.
Imo, alchemists should be able to create both HP & MP potions.
The better the alchemist skill is, the more potent the created potion will be and the lower the cooldown for using the said potion will be.
After all, when you think of an alchemist, you think of their ability to create potions. HP & MP potions being one of the many potions they can create.
I hope their ability to create the said potions won't be restricted.
Alchemist can do all other sorts of potions. So no HP/MP pots imho
go make a atk speed %, increase dmg, increase healing, REGEN MP/HP tick by +1-+10, evade %, block %, Attribute increase pot, resistance pots, etc etc.
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One of my biggest pet peeves is the healer with a mana pool so massive it may as well be able to cast spells without using any. ESPECIALLY in PVP
That's funny, what always irked me is as a healer my abilities cost more so I lose attrition fights. Someone else can spam their abilities non-stop but as a healer you can't for some odd reason.
In older games the trade off was non-healer classes had next to no self healing. So the engagement was them trying to burst you down and you trying to do some damage with the mana you had while keeping yourself up. In that situation non-endless mana makes sense.
In a situation where everyone has a good amount of self healing why should a healer always run out first? That doesn't make sense to me, the other person is using just as many or not more abilities.
Something just occured to me too. In every game I've played, almost without exception, mana regen or ability cost reduction stats have only been healer stats. Other people have access to the stats, but prefer more damage.
So when people talk about harsh regen, are they talking about just for healers or are they talking about every class will have to manage their ability costs?
If you can't break the tank of the healer and the healer can't break your tank, then you are stuck in an endless fight
People who play fantasy MMOs gotta start thinking about real roles, because the holy trinity is worthless if you can't see what has to be achieved: what has to be achieve is pretty much breaking tank and holding tank
It's not important how much the other guy heals or how much mana he has if he dies
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
So when people talk about harsh regen, are they talking about just for healers or are they talking about every class will have to manage their ability costs?
Of course everyone. Mages shouldn't just be able to spam their shit endlessly and fighters shouldn't be able to do the same.
One of my biggest pet peeves is the healer with a mana pool so massive it may as well be able to cast spells without using any. ESPECIALLY in PVP
That's funny, what always irked me is as a healer my abilities cost more so I lose attrition fights. Someone else can spam their abilities non-stop but as a healer you can't for some odd reason.
In older games the trade off was non-healer classes had next to no self healing. So the engagement was them trying to burst you down and you trying to do some damage with the mana you had while keeping yourself up. In that situation non-endless mana makes sense.
In a situation where everyone has a good amount of self healing why should a healer always run out first? That doesn't make sense to me, the other person is using just as many or not more abilities.
Something just occured to me too. In every game I've played, almost without exception, mana regen or ability cost reduction stats have only been healer stats. Other people have access to the stats, but prefer more damage.
So when people talk about harsh regen, are they talking about just for healers or are they talking about every class will have to manage their ability costs?
@NiKr is correct. Me saying that endless mana healers is annoying isn't me saying that all other classes should have infinite casting. My experience has been where even in games that melee classes are limited by resources, cooldowns, or even mobility. Many times healing classes simply could ignore their mana pool and cast freely. It's not true of all games of course but for these particular instances it was indeed bothersome because at that point they may as well be a tank. Making a healer have to choose who and when to heal due to mana management and cooldown management is better than just spamming and overhealing a bunch over and over again. That's outdated game design.
I hope for a system where both HP and MP potions will be accessible to everyone and recover a substantial amount of HP & MP, while the potion will have a high cooldown for the next time it can be used.
I don't like potion spams, but having no HP or MP potions and being hard to recover your HP & MP is way too harsh and it devalues the alchemist profession as well.
Imo, alchemists should be able to create both HP & MP potions.
The better the alchemist skill is, the more potent the created potion will be and the lower the cooldown for using the said potion will be.
After all, when you think of an alchemist, you think of their ability to create potions. HP & MP potions being one of the many potions they can create.
I hope their ability to create the said potions won't be restricted.
Alchemist can do all other sorts of potions. So no HP/MP pots imho
go make a atk speed %, increase dmg, increase healing, REGEN MP/HP tick by +1-+10, evade %, block %, Attribute increase pot, resistance pots, etc etc.
I'm not sure why you replied to my comment, but:
1. I never said that the alchemist can't do all sort of potions. This is how the alchemist job should be. His job is to craft different potion types, after all. That's what I said in my comment as well.
2. Being an alchemist and crafting a ton of different potions or buying a ton of different potions from a player who crafted those potions - being a mandatory thing in the game to grind decently, doesn't seem fun at all for me. Maybe it does for you.
So, if I don't buy 20 types of different potions that increases my stats, I will kill just 3-4 mobs per hour, while the rest of the time I will sit down and wait for my HP & MP bar to recover. (depending on how harsh the HP & MP regeneration rate is, of course)
If most of the time I just sit and wait for my HP & MP bars to recover, instead of playing the game and having fun, aka I stare at the screen for a long time, what's the point of playing a game if all I do is wait?
3. You said that you don't want HP & MP pots in AoC.
Did you ever play a MMORPG that had no HP & MP pots whatsoever? If you did, please tell me the name of the said game and what is the state of that game atm.
I played a ton of MMORPGs. Even hardcore MMORPGs, where if you died once, it's "Game Over". Those games still had HP & MP pots and that didn't make the things easier at all, as the game's content was still challenging, regardless.
4. I see players saying that they don't want MP pots, since Lineage 2 didn't have 'em.
That's false. Indeed, MP pots are not common in Lineage 2, since they are expensive, but they do have 'em.
Lineage 2 has both HP & MP pots. The HP pots are common in the game.
5. In your opinion, how many players in the AoC community will be "all in" for having NO HP & MP pots whatsoever? The majority of the community perhaps? Or only a small portion of the playerbase?
6. What is the reason for having no HP & MP pots?
I see 2 extremes here:
One extreme is having no HP & MP pots. The other extreme is having the ability to spam HP & MP pots.
I, for one, don't like any of the extremes.
Imo, there should be a balance between the 2 extremes.
I think that it's fine to have both HP & MP pots, as long as they have a high enough cooldown, so they won't be spammed.
7. Ultimately, this is just our opinion, Steven will be the one who has the power to decide.
I like all the decisions he made so far and I think that he did a really good job with the game.
I trust Steven and his team, and I will support his decision, whatever that might be.
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4. I see players saying that they don't want MP pots, since Lineage 2 didn't have 'em.
That's false. Indeed, MP pots are not common in Lineage 2, since they are expensive, but they do have 'em.
Lineage 2 has both HP & MP pots. The HP pots are common in the game.
Not sure where you are getting your information about Lineage 2 but, originally it had no MP potions till its 3rd version that had the introduction of some events that provided a few mana potions here and there throught the following versions(that would slowly regen a bit of mana)(They were not tradable/craftable nor buyable through npcs) and in the 5th version the introduction of the fairly expensive Mana exilirs that had 5 minute cooldowns and provided up to 420 mana instantly depending on its grade(considering max level skills mana cost around ~75 mana), at max level that would be about ~16% of an warriors max mana pool(fully buffed) or around 9% of a mage/healer max mana pool(fully buffed). Basically a "Last resort".
If you are talking about current(or post 2011) Lineage 2, thats just a wretched shell of its former self...
I really like mana management systems. In fact, I think modern MMOs have moved too far away from mana management, which is partially what makes playing a caster interesting. In fact, I'd be thrilled to see an MMO where casters have actual magic systems complete with mana management instead of being a damage turret that never runs out of mana and just has to go through a Simon Says "rotation" with their abilities.
One of my biggest pet peeves is the healer with a mana pool so massive it may as well be able to cast spells without using any. ESPECIALLY in PVP
That's funny, what always irked me is as a healer my abilities cost more so I lose attrition fights. Someone else can spam their abilities non-stop but as a healer you can't for some odd reason.
In older games the trade off was non-healer classes had next to no self healing. So the engagement was them trying to burst you down and you trying to do some damage with the mana you had while keeping yourself up. In that situation non-endless mana makes sense.
In a situation where everyone has a good amount of self healing why should a healer always run out first? That doesn't make sense to me, the other person is using just as many or not more abilities.
Something just occured to me too. In every game I've played, almost without exception, mana regen or ability cost reduction stats have only been healer stats. Other people have access to the stats, but prefer more damage.
So when people talk about harsh regen, are they talking about just for healers or are they talking about every class will have to manage their ability costs?
every class imo
EQ - non caster had to keep an eye on their energy / stamina bar
I think WoW had a system for that too, or maybe it's just a rogue thing.
I usually play caster and want the mana harshness cranked up.
if mage/wizard - I want to feel glass canon. I only got a few casts but they hit massively. Flipside - I should also get instant hate by mobs cause I just chunked 20-25% HP. If I nuked early, I should die, if I waited patiently like a good wizard until tank secured aggro and 15-20% has been removed before I nuke it, I should feel somewhat safe.
I want TEAMWORK, GROUP CONTENT, PATIENCE.
Don't want to see WoW bs, the second a tank pulls, DPS bursts in and cries tank didnt hold aggro. In EQ, you had to wait a solid 15 seconds for tank to build aggro before any DPS can go in.
Usually Puller pulls to tank, tank and off-tank begins to dps, puller/dps waits 10 seconds before going in, Casters can Dot if not wait until 15-20% enemy mob HP is gone before casting.
Mobs - basic ass mobs should be deadly. Ever encouter should be difficult and deadly.
Mana is important, for CC, DPS and Healing. They can change and side situation but its a big resource with big responsibility. Weed out the weak, impatient player from the reliable/strongest players.
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Did you ever play a MMORPG that had no HP & MP pots whatsoever? If you did, please tell me the name of the said game and what is the state of that game atm.
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Mana management is to be expected and I'm a pro-pot kinda player, however; If the system is too punishing I'd be concerned that I would just become frustrating and annoying. Keep it fun, digestible and relevant without it becoming a chore.
I really like mana management systems. In fact, I think modern MMOs have moved too far away from mana management, which is partially what makes playing a caster interesting. In fact, I'd be thrilled to see an MMO where casters have actual magic systems complete with mana management instead of being a damage turret that never runs out of mana and just has to go through a Simon Says "rotation" with their abilities.
Mana became such a neglectable and disregarded stat on modern MMORPGS, that getting mana on gear or buffs is considered insignificant or even bad if it takes the slot of other stats, at that point mana not existing wouldn't change anything for them.
It's just sad for me to see mana become something so meaningless in those games, having experienced such a deep, inspiring and meaningful mana resource management in Lineage 2.
Comments
Mana and cooldowns serve different purposes.
Cooldowns exist so you don't just spam your most powerful spell (or combination of spells) over and over. You can't cast it if it has to cool down. Damage/cast time would be the only determining factor in what spell you cast if cooldowns aren't in a game.
Mana is a layer on top of that, it is a long term consideration. It is something you keep an eye on for a few minutes in the future, rather than right now.
Saying we should get rid of one is kind of like saying "we already have armor rating, why do we need block and dodge as well?".
The third time you cast the same spell in a row then it spend 200% the mana for that spell
So the "cooldown" would be for being able to cast the same spell again without spending extra mana, but you would be allowed to recast it as much as you please until you run out of mana
This would be actually fun for mages that are glass cannons, they would deal insane damage and then die
Potions are basically a skill. Id rather opt for no potions that simply regen health or mana immediately, and rather incentivizes players to manage their health and mana resources better.
You're describing what mana is, we all know what mana is. What I'm saying is the minigame you're describing of managing mana adds no value. It's a holdover from older game design.
There's a difference between block and dodge if you can make a build around those stats, so a block or dodge build. If you can't? Well, then yes it serves no purpose and you should only have 1. Block and dodge is a good example because those stats aren't in many games, and in a lot of games they're combined into a stat like mitigation.
And if you want to have super short cds on abilities - I don't believe that it'd be possible to balance that kind of design well enough across all classes.
Also, as has been shown in this thread, there's a ton of design potential in mana management, while just having CD rotations has fucking nothing to do with any good design imo. That shit's boring as hell. Of course you could have abilities that increase or decrease someone's CDs, but you could already have those with mana management on top of it.
Yea, I agree. I'm just going off the ranger stream where abilities had recast timers, so assume mana users will be the same.
I liked ESO's implementation of mana/stamina that someone else mentioned. Fairly fast regen with no recast timers, so you could dump your mana as a mage/healer.
I hope AoC implements something similar to ESO for mana users, then mana vs stamina users would differ in how they played which would make things interesting. Stamina can have recast timers making them sustained DPS and mana users don't giving them more burst potential.
Go back to my first post in this thread detailing mana management in EQ2. Mana management has an impact on your group setup within a raid, your raid setup as a whole, your gear selection, your spec selection, consumables,quests you place value on completing, it adds mechanics that are used on boss fights.
I would argue there are few things in an MMORPG that are as impactful as mana - HP being about the only one I can think of.
The very concept of considering mana as a mini-game as opposed to a vital aspect of combat along side hit points is foreign to me. As an aside to this before I start, I've never put any time in to a game that combines block and dodge in with mitigation. Block and dodge should be preventing a hit from dealing any damage to your hit point pool, while mitigation should be reducing the damage done to your hit point pool.
That said, I agree with the above in general, if a game doesnt have a reason for having both block and dodge, it shouldnt have them both.
If Ashes doesnt have decent mechanics around mana, there is no need to have mana.
However, there are plenty of examples of decent mechanics around mana, and Intrepid should make use of them.
Based on your comments in regards to block and dodge - I simply have to assume you agree.
In ESO i currently have my magicka regen at 1.2k/sec with my max magicka at 55k. Each spell/skill currently cost between 3k-6k to use in my skillbar.
"no-mana/unlimited mana" = GW2 at release. GW2 also had limited healing
"no-cooldowns" = ESO
Neither approach is great IMO, and a blend of both is best. Cooldowns for burst and control windows. IE, a 4s stun on a 30s cooldown, or 15s damage buff on a 2 min cooldown. Cooldowns for defensive "oh-$#!^" moments. Both proactive and reactive.
But for attacks that are mostly about damage, a mana cost that is relative to some general damage-per-mana benchmark. Same goes for heals. Simplified: low mana hots, high mana burst heals. We still don't know how much control we'll have over our character's mana regen.
Then there's cast-time. So many variables when designing a skill: cooldown, cost, range, cast/animation time, damage/heal, special effect, etc. It would be a shame to just throw one of those out.
Ooooh, even a combo system. An ability that costs 500 mana if it has not been cast in the last 10 seconds, but costs 1000 mana if it was just cast, and is being cast again. Mana cost is on a sliding scale from 1000 to 500 depending on how long the delay. Not a mechanic that is useful for DoTs
Hum, that's interesting. That makes me think they'll rework it before launch and what's currently implemented is a placeholder.
We actually have outright confirmation from Steven that all classes will use mana.
That isnt to say other resources cant be added, just that all classes will use mana.
I don't like potion spams, but having no HP or MP potions and being hard to recover your HP & MP is way too harsh and it devalues the alchemist profession as well.
Imo, alchemists should be able to create both HP & MP potions.
The better the alchemist skill is, the more potent the created potion will be and the lower the cooldown for using the said potion will be.
After all, when you think of an alchemist, you think of their ability to create potions. HP & MP potions being one of the many potions they can create.
I hope their ability to create the said potions won't be restricted.
Alchemist can do all other sorts of potions. So no HP/MP pots imho
go make a atk speed %, increase dmg, increase healing, REGEN MP/HP tick by +1-+10, evade %, block %, Attribute increase pot, resistance pots, etc etc.
That's funny, what always irked me is as a healer my abilities cost more so I lose attrition fights. Someone else can spam their abilities non-stop but as a healer you can't for some odd reason.
In older games the trade off was non-healer classes had next to no self healing. So the engagement was them trying to burst you down and you trying to do some damage with the mana you had while keeping yourself up. In that situation non-endless mana makes sense.
In a situation where everyone has a good amount of self healing why should a healer always run out first? That doesn't make sense to me, the other person is using just as many or not more abilities.
Something just occured to me too. In every game I've played, almost without exception, mana regen or ability cost reduction stats have only been healer stats. Other people have access to the stats, but prefer more damage.
So when people talk about harsh regen, are they talking about just for healers or are they talking about every class will have to manage their ability costs?
If you can't break the tank of the healer and the healer can't break your tank, then you are stuck in an endless fight
People who play fantasy MMOs gotta start thinking about real roles, because the holy trinity is worthless if you can't see what has to be achieved: what has to be achieve is pretty much breaking tank and holding tank
It's not important how much the other guy heals or how much mana he has if he dies
You can't heal if you are dead, you can't heal if you are stunned, that's the idea
Adding many options on the table and letting people set their characters is of utmost importance
@NiKr is correct. Me saying that endless mana healers is annoying isn't me saying that all other classes should have infinite casting. My experience has been where even in games that melee classes are limited by resources, cooldowns, or even mobility. Many times healing classes simply could ignore their mana pool and cast freely. It's not true of all games of course but for these particular instances it was indeed bothersome because at that point they may as well be a tank. Making a healer have to choose who and when to heal due to mana management and cooldown management is better than just spamming and overhealing a bunch over and over again. That's outdated game design.
I'm not sure why you replied to my comment, but:
1. I never said that the alchemist can't do all sort of potions. This is how the alchemist job should be. His job is to craft different potion types, after all. That's what I said in my comment as well.
2. Being an alchemist and crafting a ton of different potions or buying a ton of different potions from a player who crafted those potions - being a mandatory thing in the game to grind decently, doesn't seem fun at all for me. Maybe it does for you.
So, if I don't buy 20 types of different potions that increases my stats, I will kill just 3-4 mobs per hour, while the rest of the time I will sit down and wait for my HP & MP bar to recover. (depending on how harsh the HP & MP regeneration rate is, of course)
If most of the time I just sit and wait for my HP & MP bars to recover, instead of playing the game and having fun, aka I stare at the screen for a long time, what's the point of playing a game if all I do is wait?
3. You said that you don't want HP & MP pots in AoC.
Did you ever play a MMORPG that had no HP & MP pots whatsoever? If you did, please tell me the name of the said game and what is the state of that game atm.
I played a ton of MMORPGs. Even hardcore MMORPGs, where if you died once, it's "Game Over". Those games still had HP & MP pots and that didn't make the things easier at all, as the game's content was still challenging, regardless.
4. I see players saying that they don't want MP pots, since Lineage 2 didn't have 'em.
That's false. Indeed, MP pots are not common in Lineage 2, since they are expensive, but they do have 'em.
Lineage 2 has both HP & MP pots. The HP pots are common in the game.
5. In your opinion, how many players in the AoC community will be "all in" for having NO HP & MP pots whatsoever? The majority of the community perhaps? Or only a small portion of the playerbase?
6. What is the reason for having no HP & MP pots?
I see 2 extremes here:
One extreme is having no HP & MP pots. The other extreme is having the ability to spam HP & MP pots.
I, for one, don't like any of the extremes.
Imo, there should be a balance between the 2 extremes.
I think that it's fine to have both HP & MP pots, as long as they have a high enough cooldown, so they won't be spammed.
7. Ultimately, this is just our opinion, Steven will be the one who has the power to decide.
I like all the decisions he made so far and I think that he did a really good job with the game.
I trust Steven and his team, and I will support his decision, whatever that might be.
Not sure where you are getting your information about Lineage 2 but, originally it had no MP potions till its 3rd version that had the introduction of some events that provided a few mana potions here and there throught the following versions(that would slowly regen a bit of mana)(They were not tradable/craftable nor buyable through npcs) and in the 5th version the introduction of the fairly expensive Mana exilirs that had 5 minute cooldowns and provided up to 420 mana instantly depending on its grade(considering max level skills mana cost around ~75 mana), at max level that would be about ~16% of an warriors max mana pool(fully buffed) or around 9% of a mage/healer max mana pool(fully buffed). Basically a "Last resort".
If you are talking about current(or post 2011) Lineage 2, thats just a wretched shell of its former self...
Aren't we all sinners?
every class imo
EQ - non caster had to keep an eye on their energy / stamina bar
I think WoW had a system for that too, or maybe it's just a rogue thing.
I usually play caster and want the mana harshness cranked up.
if mage/wizard - I want to feel glass canon. I only got a few casts but they hit massively. Flipside - I should also get instant hate by mobs cause I just chunked 20-25% HP. If I nuked early, I should die, if I waited patiently like a good wizard until tank secured aggro and 15-20% has been removed before I nuke it, I should feel somewhat safe.
I want TEAMWORK, GROUP CONTENT, PATIENCE.
Don't want to see WoW bs, the second a tank pulls, DPS bursts in and cries tank didnt hold aggro. In EQ, you had to wait a solid 15 seconds for tank to build aggro before any DPS can go in.
Usually Puller pulls to tank, tank and off-tank begins to dps, puller/dps waits 10 seconds before going in, Casters can Dot if not wait until 15-20% enemy mob HP is gone before casting.
Mobs - basic ass mobs should be deadly. Ever encouter should be difficult and deadly.
Mana is important, for CC, DPS and Healing. They can change and side situation but its a big resource with big responsibility. Weed out the weak, impatient player from the reliable/strongest players.
EVERQUEST
Mana became such a neglectable and disregarded stat on modern MMORPGS, that getting mana on gear or buffs is considered insignificant or even bad if it takes the slot of other stats, at that point mana not existing wouldn't change anything for them.
It's just sad for me to see mana become something so meaningless in those games, having experienced such a deep, inspiring and meaningful mana resource management in Lineage 2.
Aren't we all sinners?