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A thought: Do not level a crafting profession simply by using it

Just something that has been rattling around my head, and I must say I'm not sure exactly what I should search for to ensure it hasnt been discussed before, so if it has been and I missed it, I am sorry :)

Now, it might seem wrong that you do not level a crafting profession by using it, since that is at least one important aspect of gaining a skill in the real world. But in in games, this comes with a bit of a problem or at least side-effect.
When you level by using a crafting skill, people will end up crafting things no one needs, no one asked for and that there is no real market for, just because it gives them experience.

In such a system there is additional value of the craft that comes not from the item created, but from the secondary (and in some games tertiary) benefits of that craft. While this works, it tends to have effects on the value of items/resources that at least I personally find immersion-breaking.

My point here was mostly to point out the issue as it were, not really to suggest an alternative.
After all I am not really confident in designing the best replacment.
But just to show that there are some here is a list from the top of my head:
  • We have EVE Online's version were you pay the gold, and wait IRL time for it to be ready.
  • You could have a version like how you improve skills in skyrim, pay an NPC(or a menu?) gold for each level. That way you would focus on making money to invest in your skills.
  • You could also craft things, just not things that have any use. While this will affect market prices, it wont do so in the same way.
  • You could try to work with minigames, or "cultural exhange" where at certain points you need to "discuss" things with another crafter of the same trade and skill to move forward.

That said, pardon my braindump as it were :)

Comments

  • First off, kudos for looking to see if your thread is redundant with a previous one.

    I do agree that gaining exp does motivate the creation of items that no one needs as you put it. However, especially since they are planning to go with abundant resources (you can chop down any tree, break any rock), you need players crafting items to act as resource sinks.

    I think the best solution, that is uniquely available to AoC with their changing world, is to require resources for leveling up nodes. From gathered goods to processed goods to crafted goods, that are otherwise low value and low tier, there should be a purpose for it in terms of node development. Imagine a node requires 500 'weapons' to level up (thematically to arm the guards), then suddenly, you have an NPC-driven sink for otherwise useless items and you can deliver your 500 daggers or swords or w.e. You get some gold, the node makes progress towards leveling up (you contribute to your node as an artisan and not just as a murder hobo). And since the world will have node destruction, you should always have some demand, even for otherwise useless items.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    I'd prefer a "craft less, but gain more xp" approach to this. Nodes and huge projects could require a ton of those basic mats that are abundant (just as neuro pointed out), but normal crafting could still require items that are waaaaaay rarer. So you literally can't just craft 1k boots in a day. And with a slow crafting system most items will be valuable, because there won't be storages full of the same items.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited November 22
    It's very challenging!

    Could stuff like these help?

    Carpentry:
    What if the node's buildings took days to be finished, then would be cool letting players afk train artisan skills on the building and speed up the construction. At the same time allow player to run minigames for a little more construction speed and a little more XP.

    Tailoring, Leatherworking, Armor smithing and Weapon smithing
    Allow others to repair your stuff, so they can train without having to shove useless items in market

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    It's very challenging!

    Could stuff like these help?

    Carpentry:
    What if the node's buildings took days to be finished, then would be cool letting players afk train artisan skills on the building and speed up the construction. At the same time allow player to run minigames for a little more construction speed and a little more XP.

    Tailoring, Leatherworking, Armor smithing and Weapon smithing
    Allow others to repair your stuff, so they can train without having to shove useless items in market

    Sure, these work. They wouldn't be 'realtime' enough to require main server resources, and they're mostly one-sided functions so communication relative to status can be synchronized in a more effective way.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Having EVE Online-style progression tied to Node like the carpentry example is actually an interesting take.

    Having Nodes as Item sinks is also an interesting take, since it attacks the problem with the "act of crafting" having secondary value by adding secondary value to items as well. Very much solving the problem by doubling down instead.

    Based on NiKr slow crafting with rare resources I kinda had the idea that in order to properly use a resource, you need to first understand it. Like research/practice-runs that doesnt necessarily generate a meaningful output of some kind are necessary.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I wondered if they took a leaf out of L2 crafting system and will allow crafters to setup AFK stands for players to craft a select number of possible crafts at a fee or something similar.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    akabear wrote: »
    I wondered if they took a leaf out of L2 crafting system and will allow crafters to setup AFK stands for players to craft a select number of possible crafts at a fee or something similar.
    I think these will be the closest thing to that. Do hope we can set up crafting there too, cause so far it doesn't seem like we can.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_stalls
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    akabear wrote: »
    I wondered if they took a leaf out of L2 crafting system and will allow crafters to setup AFK stands for players to craft a select number of possible crafts at a fee or something similar.
    I think these will be the closest thing to that. Do hope we can set up crafting there too, cause so far it doesn't seem like we can.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_stalls

    It would be such a shame to not do this for REPAIRS though, right?

    Finding someone to repair your stuff who may not be online is harsh. It wouldn't really even cause a big problem otherwise because when you're deep in a dungeon you'd still have to find somebody.

    "Windsor Lava Cave Spot Repair Service how can I help ya... you're what... you're WHERE?! Alright alright Jimmy'll be there in a bit."
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    It would be such a shame to not do this for REPAIRS though, right?

    Finding someone to repair your stuff who may not be online is harsh. It wouldn't really even cause a big problem otherwise because when you're deep in a dungeon you'd still have to find somebody.

    "Windsor Lava Cave Spot Repair Service how can I help ya... you're what... you're WHERE?! Alright alright Jimmy'll be there in a bit."
    I mean, repairs are already mentioned there. And I'd imagine that it's gonna be used waaaay more than crafting, considering the "dials" feature which would most likely mean that you gotta have a live crafter making your stuff. But I hope that there's some basic versions of items that you can just craft at some crafter's stall.

    This would also perfectly fit with my preferred crafting system of "there's several ways to craft the same thing, with each way having its own special addition". And afaik that is pretty close to what SWG had, so theoretically that's exactly what we'll get.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    It would be such a shame to not do this for REPAIRS though, right?

    Finding someone to repair your stuff who may not be online is harsh. It wouldn't really even cause a big problem otherwise because when you're deep in a dungeon you'd still have to find somebody.

    "Windsor Lava Cave Spot Repair Service how can I help ya... you're what... you're WHERE?! Alright alright Jimmy'll be there in a bit."
    I mean, repairs are already mentioned there. And I'd imagine that it's gonna be used waaaay more than crafting, considering the "dials" feature which would most likely mean that you gotta have a live crafter making your stuff. But I hope that there's some basic versions of items that you can just craft at some crafter's stall.

    This would also perfectly fit with my preferred crafting system of "there's several ways to craft the same thing, with each way having its own special addition". And afaik that is pretty close to what SWG had, so theoretically that's exactly what we'll get.

    Thanks, I actually have no idea why I blanked on this because I'm pretty sure I've explicitly had this discussion before.

    I blame noobs.

    (so many people come on here complaining about things that 'will ruin the game if they don't exist' without managing to check if they exist first, they're like little memory-scrubbers, except that they don't give me special powers and the ability to enhance my gear)
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Dhaiwon wrote: »
    Just something that has been rattling around my head, and I must say I'm not sure exactly what I should search for to ensure it hasnt been discussed before, so if it has been and I missed it, I am sorry :)

    Now, it might seem wrong that you do not level a crafting profession by using it, since that is at least one important aspect of gaining a skill in the real world. But in in games, this comes with a bit of a problem or at least side-effect.
    When you level by using a crafting skill, people will end up crafting things no one needs, no one asked for and that there is no real market for, just because it gives them experience.

    In such a system there is additional value of the craft that comes not from the item created, but from the secondary (and in some games tertiary) benefits of that craft. While this works, it tends to have effects on the value of items/resources that at least I personally find immersion-breaking.

    My point here was mostly to point out the issue as it were, not really to suggest an alternative.
    After all I am not really confident in designing the best replacment.
    But just to show that there are some here is a list from the top of my head:
    • We have EVE Online's version were you pay the gold, and wait IRL time for it to be ready.
    • You could have a version like how you improve skills in skyrim, pay an NPC(or a menu?) gold for each level. That way you would focus on making money to invest in your skills.
    • You could also craft things, just not things that have any use. While this will affect market prices, it wont do so in the same way.
    • You could try to work with minigames, or "cultural exhange" where at certain points you need to "discuss" things with another crafter of the same trade and skill to move forward.

    That said, pardon my braindump as it were :)

    I like this idea of not having to do leveling for professions, it offers much more space for design to be sandbox, not by how you play it, but how you farm in open world.

    It will be hard to design if not bothering to have skill ups and then have this sandbox style of doing professions.

    This design leads to simplicity which always work well, some games complicate their profession design so much that it ends up crushing market very hard. Games should be about process od doing it, is it fun and immersive, not about how complex you can design crafting. In the end its all about journey, we should not compete as who makes things more complex, you are not smarter if you design something very complex, therefore why all this need to have complex profession design...

    It also creates much more space to gold sink, make something like training similar to skyrim, to train certain crafts or speed up certain crafts, give some ''core'' materials purchasable from vendor, it can stabilize economy and make certain level as how much something will cost. For example leatherworking, NPC sells some glues and stuff to harden leather, while you can obtain leather in open world via animals, you need glue on top of it to harden it or do whatever its needed to process it into hard leather. Same thing can be done with harvesting plants in farming, make one vendor that sells rare seeds, for example 1 seed would cost 1hr of farming, used to make high end flasks/potions via alchemy, but only those that specialized into alchemy can make these items.

    This is good gold sink, even if you return gold, you have to farm in order to start making something, it creates another ''content'' within a game, you can't just make something from farming, you also need to farm gold, so again, it creates certain depth into it and another layer of farming. I would make these things pretty expensive (vendor items), so that we have stable economy that matters, I mean gold to matter, I don't like cheap stuff in MMOs and where you can farm a lot of gold per/h using some other broken methods, I want everything to be valuable.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dhaiwon wrote: »
    Just something that has been rattling around my head, and I must say I'm not sure exactly what I should search for to ensure it hasnt been discussed before, so if it has been and I missed it, I am sorry :)

    Now, it might seem wrong that you do not level a crafting profession by using it, since that is at least one important aspect of gaining a skill in the real world. But in in games, this comes with a bit of a problem or at least side-effect.
    When you level by using a crafting skill, people will end up crafting things no one needs, no one asked for and that there is no real market for, just because it gives them experience.

    In such a system there is additional value of the craft that comes not from the item created, but from the secondary (and in some games tertiary) benefits of that craft. While this works, it tends to have effects on the value of items/resources that at least I personally find immersion-breaking.

    My point here was mostly to point out the issue as it were, not really to suggest an alternative.
    After all I am not really confident in designing the best replacment.
    But just to show that there are some here is a list from the top of my head:
    • We have EVE Online's version were you pay the gold, and wait IRL time for it to be ready.
    • You could have a version like how you improve skills in skyrim, pay an NPC(or a menu?) gold for each level. That way you would focus on making money to invest in your skills.
    • You could also craft things, just not things that have any use. While this will affect market prices, it wont do so in the same way.
    • You could try to work with minigames, or "cultural exhange" where at certain points you need to "discuss" things with another crafter of the same trade and skill to move forward.

    That said, pardon my braindump as it were :)

    This design leads to simplicity which always work well, some games complicate their profession design so much that it ends up crushing market very hard.

    Could you give an example of a game that does this?

    I only have experience with games where the market is destroyed because of exploits due to oversimplicity.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Should have an artisan guild you report to and you do quest for faction and earn the right to learn to craft Varias recipes. You would travel to different areas to learn different other design
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