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Region-unique materials

NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
edited November 22 in General Discussion
Since we're on the dev topic of materials, how do you guys feel about materials, rare or common, that can ONLY be acquired from a specific region in the game? As in, it can't be grown or found anywhere else at all unless a trader brings it there to sell it.

For example, let's say there is a spice that only grows on Peligora island. Or a crystal that can only be found on Sujoma. Perhaps every region in the game has a region-unique material that cannot be found elsewhere at all.
Map_of_Verra.jpg

Would you hate such a system? Like it? Should it be limited to only one rare material resource per region, or would you be ok with several, including some more common ones (for the area)? Or are you dead set against any type of region-unique materials?

Personally I would like to see some. Sure, that means some nodes (or node clusters) will try to keep a monopoly on certain materials perhaps, but I see that as a net positive. I drives both trade and inter-node strife and wars. Perhaps those uppity Peligorans need to be taught a lesson if they try to jack up the price too much. The spice must flow, after all.

Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nerror wrote: »
    Since we're on the dev topic of materials, how do you guys feel about materials, rare or common, that can ONLY be acquired from a specific region in the game? As in, it can't be found or grown anywhere else at all unless a trader brings it there to sell it.

    For example, let's say there is a spice that only grows on Peligora island. Or a crystal that can only be found on Sujoma. Perhaps every region in the game has a region-unique material that cannot be found elsewhere at all.
    Map_of_Verra.jpg

    Would you hate such a system? Like it? Should it be limited to only one rare material resource per region, or would you be ok with several, including some more common ones (for the area)? Or are you dead set against any type of region-unique materials?

    Personally I would like to see some. Sure, that means some nodes will try to keep a monopoly on certain materials perhaps, but I see that as a net positive. I drives both trade and inter-node strife and wars. Perhaps those uppity Peligorans need to be taught a lesson if they try to jack up the price too much. The spice must flow, after all.

    I think I'd prefer these to be in biomes or 'bands', so that geographically, multiple nodes have it, but in terms of overall trade flows, you still need to do it as a whole (given the layout of the map)

    I think this would also lead to an interesting useful outcome on the map sometimes where people strive to build a metropolis 'between two biome bands' to create a trade hub instead of a monopoly hub.

    Would also make the World Manager a little easier to write I would bet.

    This is definitely going to happen for certain types of rare trees if the itemization team is pushing for more resource types.

    I'm okay with certain items being very specific, basically 'Node only', but I'd prefer those to be tied to elemental stuff (resistances, etc) rather than 'products that might become meta'. Even considering the 'interesting' outcome of 'a group being able to monopolize a meta product to shift said meta', I would prefer this to happen differently, as it feels a little too forced relative to the build/expression options and early choices of the game.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I like the idea of materials being found only in certain nodes and or time of the year. It adds to scarcity and the need to travel/trade. It also helps to keep player interaction over all important whether it is PvP or caravans and politics between nodes. Perhaps some things can only be found in one or two nodes while some basic stuff cannot be found there.
    Over all I like the idea and hopefully it will help to slow/prevent the world being to static.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited November 22
    Let me give you feedback about this, this was actually implemented in EVE in kinda recent times and many thousands of people complained about it and they are still complanining until this day

    If you go to Reddit you will see many threads complaining about the Scarcity which CCP called as “resource distribution overhaul”... well the distribution was making certain minerals completely unavailable depeding which regions of space you mine

    Miners are big carebears in general, they whine and whine, instead of travelling, making business, reaching out people, working together, trading with others, they just whine over and over and over

    I wonder how this would unfold in AoC since there's node and freehold destruction, how it will be when just a region has that material and everything is destroyed
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    I wonder how this would unfold in AoC since there's node and freehold destruction, how it will be when just a region has that material and everything is destroyed

    I don't see how this would matter for most resources, honestly.

    Maybe for very specific mined ones or animals, but I think, if anything, having a Node destroyed would make it easier to GATHER the materials, just harder to transport them. Is that what you meant?

    It would be more likely to turn into a free-for-all 'gold rush' that would result in the Node getting rebuilt.

    This is actually the reason I prefer 'biomes'. If 'important materials' always cause certain nodes to rise, it might be a bit disappointing.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • @Azherae it would be harder in all possible ways

    I like how Steven said in the October stream that every rock could have a chance of having anything, this is kinda cool... maybe they could tweak a bit and add more diamonds in volcanic regions, more iron in certain regions... but still have a chance of finding the stuff

    Imbalances are cool and good for the economy since it creates market opportunities
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    @Azherae it would be harder in all possible ways

    I like how Steven said in the October stream that every rock could have a chance of having anything, this is kinda cool... maybe they could tweak a bit and add more diamonds in volcanic regions, more iron in certain regions... but still have a chance of finding the stuff

    Imbalances are cool and good for the economy since it creates market opportunities

    I agree, I just don't see it as necessary to cause SPECIFIC nodes to be like this (I know Nerror said region, but politics added to it will cause it to be 'Nodes')
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • As long as region specific resources are not bottlenecks for crafting I have always been a fan of them. They should be optional resources or resources that can be substituted and have special (unique) properties. It all kind of depends on how they set up crafting but I like biome specific stuff as it promotes exploration and movement around the map (also gives caravans more of a function).
  • we already have different mats in different biomes, lets not over complicate it
    the beginning of wisdom is to know you know nothing
  • Yes. Two aspects come to mind: power rarity and material properties.

    Power rarity is typically the more obvious one - bring me the red petal from the dragon lotus atop the far peaks of Mount Killukwik. The raw material is super rare, hard to find, and requires travel and skill - because the specific end product is proportionately powerful. Tried and true to many (if not most) RPGs.

    Material property is done well in rare instances, but I'd love to see Ashes adopt it. This is the concept that relatively common material has specific properties given to specific product outcomes. Let's take bowyering from MOII - there are a number of different trees that grow across the world. The wood of each one of those trees has different contributions to a bow's durability, power (dmg), and range. Greywood is sturdy, but inflexible - and so has higher contribution to power & durability, but lower range. Blackwood is flexible and powerful, but not really durable. Then there are animal components, using bone or horn to make bows. Next there are composite bows - and this is where I had a whole notebook filled with experiments. What happens when you blend greywood and blackwood? What are the power ratios when you have 30% greywood instead of 70% greywood? Or horn? Or claws?

    This was all built into the material and it was up to the player as the crafter to figure all of this out. So the most curious and diligent crafters are able to produce a set of gear with calibrated properties to benefit different customers - and make a ton of gold.

    Now take that and extrapolate it for alchemy, armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, and carpentry and you have a rich system.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • Nerror wrote: »
    Since we're on the dev topic of materials, how do you guys feel about materials, rare or common, that can ONLY be acquired from a specific region in the game? As in, it can't be grown or found anywhere else at all unless a trader brings it there to sell it.

    For example, let's say there is a spice that only grows on Peligora island. Or a crystal that can only be found on Sujoma. Perhaps every region in the game has a region-unique material that cannot be found elsewhere at all.
    Map_of_Verra.jpg

    Would you hate such a system? Like it? Should it be limited to only one rare material resource per region, or would you be ok with several, including some more common ones (for the area)? Or are you dead set against any type of region-unique materials?

    Personally I would like to see some. Sure, that means some nodes (or node clusters) will try to keep a monopoly on certain materials perhaps, but I see that as a net positive. I drives both trade and inter-node strife and wars. Perhaps those uppity Peligorans need to be taught a lesson if they try to jack up the price too much. The spice must flow, after all.

    I would prefer to see one material that is extremly rare in end lvl zones where people would go usually. This worked well in vanilla wow via herb known as black lotus. Although if there was such material in AoC, for example herb, I would design it so that only 300/300 skill herbalist can gsther it (does not need to master herbalism), but only master alchemist would be able to craft flasks that are extremly powerful and expensive.

    For example 4 end game zones would have 20 spawns esch and only 1 of that rare herb can spawn every 1-2h.

    I would do same for each gatherable material and I would also add some mobs like elementals that drop rare materials, same way of spawning.

    I think that if they design rare materials only in open world raid/dung it wont be good economy, and only tryhards will get these materials.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    I personally expect it. They went away from the scarcity of resources in favor of "NW did it and people liked it", so I at least expect them to limit the locations of resources. It will create friction, it will create pvp, it will make people rich, it will make caravans more meaningful and useful, etc etc etc.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    I personally expect it. They went away from the scarcity of resources in favor of "NW did it and people liked it", so I at least expect them to limit the locations of resources. It will create friction, it will create pvp, it will make people rich, it will make caravans more meaningful and useful, etc etc etc.

    NiKr we're taking over the Sujoma Sulfur mines.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Mentioned this in my comment on the discussion.
    Big advantage to making regional/biome specific materials is that it promotes player travel and trade. And the developers could even make it where there's a tradeoff if you aren't trading those materials in your own node for its progression.

    Also mentioned to make it where crafting and processing can make the same thing with the beginning materials from different regions for early levels in professions, it wouldn't be until later in professions that require specific or several different regional materials to create items.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    NiKr we're taking over the Sujoma Sulfur mines.
    Hell yeah let's gooo >:)
  • HighSpeedHotdogHighSpeedHotdog Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I love it. Because as people have said it promotes travel. Which means people will be subjected to the mule/inventory/caravan limits.

    It'll get people out in the world exploring and if there's a few things unique in every biome then it'll foster pvp and local communities because people will inevitably build their own business around particular resources and the trade that comes with the shiny things.


    djiw8k1wjci1.png
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Yes. Two aspects come to mind: power rarity and material properties.

    Power rarity is typically the more obvious one - bring me the red petal from the dragon lotus atop the far peaks of Mount Killukwik. The raw material is super rare, hard to find, and requires travel and skill - because the specific end product is proportionately powerful. Tried and true to many (if not most) RPGs.

    Material property is done well in rare instances, but I'd love to see Ashes adopt it. This is the concept that relatively common material has specific properties given to specific product outcomes. Let's take bowyering from MOII - there are a number of different trees that grow across the world. The wood of each one of those trees has different contributions to a bow's durability, power (dmg), and range. Greywood is sturdy, but inflexible - and so has higher contribution to power & durability, but lower range. Blackwood is flexible and powerful, but not really durable. Then there are animal components, using bone or horn to make bows. Next there are composite bows - and this is where I had a whole notebook filled with experiments. What happens when you blend greywood and blackwood? What are the power ratios when you have 30% greywood instead of 70% greywood? Or horn? Or claws?

    This was all built into the material and it was up to the player as the crafter to figure all of this out. So the most curious and diligent crafters are able to produce a set of gear with calibrated properties to benefit different customers - and make a ton of gold.

    Now take that and extrapolate it for alchemy, armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, and carpentry and you have a rich system.

    Yeah you're also in the 'insane' category of craft requirements, but it IS absolutely true that the closer you get to this style, particularly in a Fantasy game, the easier it would actually be to create a lot more regional resources.

    I say 'easier' but I'm sure Steven already has a massive number of them in mind, this game's been taking shape for years now, and it has such a strong worldbuild already that I wouldn't be surprised if those were all done. Probably the only reason we got that 'Materials' Dev Discussion was so they could figure out how much they need to rein Steven in from his NoteBook Of Three Thousand Items.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • I thought it was already revealed that AoC would have region specific materials to promote friction, trading, conflict, guild pvp, etc.
  • GoalidGoalid Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I would have a high amount of specificity. As an example, take wood. I would have tiers I through IV for wood. Every region would have wood, with similar ratios of tiers I-IV, but the amount of wood spawns would vary according to biome. So the forest biome gets a lot of wood, desert biome not so much.

    Each different biome has a different name for their wood. So the Jundark would produce Jundark Wood tier 1-4. And similarly, the Kaelar Riverlands would produce Kaelan Wood tier 1-4. And those resources would produce different stats when processed. So maybe the Jundark Wood specializes in penetration defense, and the Kaelan Wood specializes in slash defense. Processors then create the wood planks, and crafters turn those into completed goods.

    And then, every season provides different elemental resistances. So winter wood is more resistant against fire damage and summer wood is more resistant against ice damage.

    And then on top of that, each region has different qualities of these resources that spawn each week, just like in Star Wars Galaxies. The point of surveying is to figure out what quality level is in an area, as well as where the more high tiered resources have spawned in an area.

    You then have recipes that call for different resources, some recipes are broad and just call for wood, some are specific and call for winter wood or Jundark Wood. And the base stats of all these resources are determined by that whole process.

    That would drive a lot of inter-regional caravans, as well as shifting trade routes as the meta changes upon combat updates.
    bRVL6TR.png


  • Nerror wrote: »
    Since we're on the dev topic of materials, how do you guys feel about materials, rare or common, that can ONLY be acquired from a specific region in the game? As in, it can't be grown or found anywhere else at all unless a trader brings it there to sell it.
    Sand and water should not be found in desert.
    Desert sand is too fine for building, like a powder.
    The good sand is on beaches.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 23
    Nerror wrote: »
    Since we're on the dev topic of materials, how do you guys feel about materials, rare or common, that can ONLY be acquired from a specific region in the game? As in, it can't be grown or found anywhere else at all unless a trader brings it there to sell it.

    For example, let's say there is a spice that only grows on Peligora island. Or a crystal that can only be found on Sujoma. Perhaps every region in the game has a region-unique material that cannot be found elsewhere at all.
    Map_of_Verra.jpg

    Would you hate such a system? Like it? Should it be limited to only one rare material resource per region, or would you be ok with several, including some more common ones (for the area)? Or are you dead set against any type of region-unique materials?

    Personally I would like to see some. Sure, that means some nodes (or node clusters) will try to keep a monopoly on certain materials perhaps, but I see that as a net positive. I drives both trade and inter-node strife and wars. Perhaps those uppity Peligorans need to be taught a lesson if they try to jack up the price too much. The spice must flow, after all.

    I would prefer to see one material that is extremly rare in end lvl zones where people would go usually. This worked well in vanilla wow via herb known as black lotus. Although if there was such material in AoC, for example herb, I would design it so that only 300/300 skill herbalist can gsther it (does not need to master herbalism), but only master alchemist would be able to craft flasks that are extremly powerful and expensive.

    We won't really have endgame zones like in WoW. We'll certainly get high level areas, but those mostly depend on the level of the nearest node, and they can change dynamically as the node changes obviously. Spawns appearing and disappearing, and dungeons opening up and closing.

    I understand the point you're trying to make, but with materials being tied to the level of the area it would also mean that not all of those materials are available on a server at any given time. This could be fine actually, since it's one more incentive to go forth and kill a node so another can grow big enough to open up for a new rare material. But it's definitely also more limiting.
  • I think I'd like to see quite a few regional materials like that. It keeps things interesting.

    We would see a few major tradehubs where everything is sold, albeit perhaps at a premium, with tons of caravans entering and leaving. Lots of emergent gameplay opportunities with guilds specializing in protection of those caravans, and others specializing in attacking them.

    Successful crafters will set up their own supply network to get the goods directly at lower cost perhaps, or they can brave a trip to a region and back themselves if they dare.
  • One of the biggest issues with this will be late game material management for repairs when travelling. It could potentially be very annoying to do. But, we have not seen it yet so im optimistic they address this sort of thing.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • Goalid wrote: »
    I would have a high amount of specificity. As an example, take wood. I would have tiers I through IV for wood. Every region would have wood, with similar ratios of tiers I-IV, but the amount of wood spawns would vary according to biome. So the forest biome gets a lot of wood, desert biome not so much.

    Each different biome has a different name for their wood. So the Jundark would produce Jundark Wood tier 1-4. And similarly, the Kaelar Riverlands would produce Kaelan Wood tier 1-4. And those resources would produce different stats when processed. So maybe the Jundark Wood specializes in penetration defense, and the Kaelan Wood specializes in slash defense. Processors then create the wood planks, and crafters turn those into completed goods.

    And then, every season provides different elemental resistances. So winter wood is more resistant against fire damage and summer wood is more resistant against ice damage.

    And then on top of that, each region has different qualities of these resources that spawn each week, just like in Star Wars Galaxies. The point of surveying is to figure out what quality level is in an area, as well as where the more high tiered resources have spawned in an area.

    You then have recipes that call for different resources, some recipes are broad and just call for wood, some are specific and call for winter wood or Jundark Wood. And the base stats of all these resources are determined by that whole process.

    That would drive a lot of inter-regional caravans, as well as shifting trade routes as the meta changes upon combat updates.

    How would you define a 'region' then if it spans multiple biomes?

    In your system, processing is just a thematic step. If you could you would always process your goods to minimize their weight for storage and caravan usage.

    I think SWG system is interesting but it can be simplified in AoC due to major differences in game design that doesn't translate well. I think instead of each material having stats, you just only average stats or above average stats. So If some wood has higher cold resistance, you just have a +cold res wood meaning all other stats are average. It would reduce the bloat, it would reduce finding 'bad' materials and better justify the risk-reward of the OWPvP with no fast travel and the caravan system.
  • 100%. When it comes to gatherables I hope to see many different types spread out across the world in a myriad of ways. I would really love to see a Botanist Journal listing super rare mystical plants that only spawn in specific biomes, during specific seasons. Perhaps even during a specific time window. Having regional resources will be absolutely necessary for creating soft friction between players and motivation for all types of different content.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited November 27
    Nerror wrote: »
    Since we're on the dev topic of materials, how do you guys feel about materials, rare or common, that can ONLY be acquired from a specific region in the game? As in, it can't be grown or found anywhere else at all unless a trader brings it there to sell it.

    For example, let's say there is a spice that only grows on Peligora island. Or a crystal that can only be found on Sujoma. Perhaps every region in the game has a region-unique material that cannot be found elsewhere at all.
    Map_of_Verra.jpg

    Would you hate such a system? Like it? Should it be limited to only one rare material resource per region, or would you be ok with several, including some more common ones (for the area)? Or are you dead set against any type of region-unique materials?

    Personally I would like to see some. Sure, that means some nodes (or node clusters) will try to keep a monopoly on certain materials perhaps, but I see that as a net positive. I drives both trade and inter-node strife and wars. Perhaps those uppity Peligorans need to be taught a lesson if they try to jack up the price too much. The spice must flow, after all.

    I'm hoping they impliment exactly this, but only with secondary or added effect materials. The type of materials that change the effects, typing or cosmetics of an item.

    For base items each region should have their own options for materials. You don't want to have a single region of the world controlling materials critical to everyone in the game.

    You just have to be careful not to create the Ashes version of Arrakis.
  • I support anything that encourages player cooperation and conflict. If this means distinct materials in select biomes/regions, then I am pleased, as players can interact to create content and give their actions 'meaning' and 'value'. I think Intrepid have designed the systems right to support all this well.

    My only concern is if Intrepid reverses their designs when the masses whine? And my god there will be much whining and gnashing of teeth, as "convenience" is supplanted by the need to travel, plan, invest, risk, socialise and fight.
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