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Active Blocking feedback for Intrepid

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Comments

  • The real extreme tough would be to have only one life bar. Everything dependant on life/health... Get hit? Lose life. Cast a spell? Lose life. Want to dodge? Lose life. Life gets to 0? Fall unconscious. If left alone while unconscious you'd wake up after a time. Unconscious players can be terminated with a special action.

    That would be wild.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited December 2022
    Stamina/Endurance etc is a basic and often necessary feature to provide balance to GOOD movement and defensive systems.

    If you have an action orientated game, "feel good" movement transforms gameplay for the user and there is naturally more self control.
    By having more movement and reactionary defensive measures in the game (as opposed to cooldown/mana dictators) you can then as a dev implement more exciting features to attack skills that stop movement, hinder movement or just heavy attacks that reduce stamina/endurance.

    I don't wish to elaborate further for now but even with a modern game like Black Desert I'm still very much excited by combat from a relic of a game called Ultima Online and they both share the stamina system and have similarities to good movement.
    It would be a crying shame if AoC turned out as a mana/cooldown only game in the pursuit of simplying gameplay for the masses and to force a pseudo attempt of a d&d feel from always being reserved with skill and resource use which would simply cripple that modern gameplay feel.
    The only way to avoid stamina and endurance use while still maintaining decent gameplay would be to...make the game a "chug chug" potion fest for HP and MP and for class variation and skill depth to be exceptionally good.

    If AoC doesn't feel like it's catering towards good gameplay practices then I will simply stick with the fighting game genre and leave the copium and adventure crowd to gasm over their gear score while playing their chosen class by only a handful of meta ways. A good synergy system can only go so far and for PvE it can feel great but good PvP demands proper self reliance and skill practices.
  • BakalulaBakalula Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Make blocking od dodge evade whatever use reasource but only when you activate them. So if i am blocking with my shild i will spent my stanima only if i block attack.
  • TheWolfofGarTheWolfofGar Member, Alpha Two
    So, in general I disagree and personally hate active blocking especially when it comes to mmos, your character shouldn't be so incompetent that you need to press a button for them to engage their shield, I much prefer passive blocking, given all active block amounts to is a button you hold for %damage down but unlike regular cd's where you can simply press it then start attacking you are tied to holding the block button, which is not imo engaging gameplay.

    So were I given the choice I would nuke active blocking.

    However I don't have that choice as Steven and the team want to go the active block route. Personally I understand the gameplay conceit of blocking with specific weapons being more or less efficient as you are simulating multiple interactions with each hit, i.e. you're likely to successfully block 80% of hits if given a shield so it provides 80% damage reduction etc.
    Liniker wrote: »
    there needs to be a difference for the Tank using active blocking compared to the Cleric and other Archetypes using it, if active blocking is universal and works exactly the same for all archetypes, this is going to hurt the Tank, taking away from it and further contributing for a low Tank population in the game.

    I fundamentally disagree, a shield is a shield is a shield, active blocking should be the same for all archetypes, active blocking should not be a core tank mechanic, instead tanks should be given a variety of defensive support abilities which impact their and the parties survivability. Tanking should not be reduced to you get to hold the block button longer or better.
    Liniker wrote: »
    There's only 1 Tank archetype, If the Tank has low damage, no healing, no buffs, what does it need to have for us, main tanks, want to play it? It needs to excel at... tanking, and active blocking can (should) help with this.

    rather than emphasizing active block, I would challenge the no buffs statement, tanks should buff, have cc, mitigation, and threat management to work around as their gameplay loop.

    Liniker wrote: »
    A Cleric should not be as effective using active blocking as a Tank, everyone can agree on this, but how do we make this happen?

    No. everyone doesn't agree on this if blocking needs to be balanced it should be on proficiency with the item you are blocking with. and as you get better with your wep or shield your block chance scales. primary arch. should not determine active block proficiency
    Liniker wrote: »
    All archetypes should have a stamina/exhaustion bar based on the weapon type that once it breaks, it should set the active blocking on a cooldown

    This I would be okay with however I think if you should balance it, so they can all block the same amount of damage before being placed on cd based on the % mit. , eg a shield and dagger can both withstand 1000hp before being set to cooldown, however given shields block at 80% and daggers block at 15% you can active block longer with a dagger than you can with a shield because it takes someone taking 500dps 2.5s to block 1000hp at 80% mit and 13.33s for the one blocking 15%
    Liniker wrote: »
    The Tank, should follow unique rules, he should have access to a unique passive, that we will call "True Active Blocking"

    True Active Blocking should make that the Tank, is the only archetype able to block 100% of the inc. damage when using a Shield.

    I hope you can take the time to look at this feedback. Active blocking can be great, if done right, but if done wrong, it might water down the role composition and make Tanks meaningless, hopefully Intrepid will nail it! Leave your comments below if you agree or disagree with this!

    In general I'm not a fan of the "true active blocking idea". I do not want us to lean into active blocking in the slightest, a buff that makes my active block better is just a worse version of a skill that gives me a passive % mitigation. As I can attack or use alternate abilities while my passive is up, I can't while holding active block.
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  • BlindsideBlindside Member
    edited December 2022
    Would blocking work well as a resource? With a resource system, you'd be able to hold your block as long/as frequently as you want. However, taking damage will directly drain the block resource. When you run out, you have to wait for it to recharge.

    For example:
    1. A tower shield can block 10,000 damage. It regens at a rate of 500 shield per second when not blocking.
      • So, if you absorbed 10,000 damage from enemy attacks, it would take 20 seconds to fully replenish the amount of damage you can block.
    2. A buckler can block 5,000 damage. It regens at a rate of 1,000 shield per second when not blocking.
      • So, if you absorbed 5,000 damage from enemy attacks, it would take 5 seconds to fully replenish the amount of damage you can block.
    In these examples, different shields can have varying max block amounts and regen rates.
    1. A tower shield may be better for blocking large hits in shorter fights due to the higher max block but lower regen rate.
      • The counter would be to attack with smaller hits over a longer period of time to whittle the shield down quicker than it can regen.
    2. A buckler may be better for blocking smaller hits in extended fights due to the lower max block but higher regen rate.
      • The counter would be to burst it extremely hard in short windows to shatter the shield quickly.
    With this system, a mechanic could be implemented where shield regen rate completely stops for 5 seconds upon fulling depleting the block resource. Thus, it gives players outplay potential as they can use different tactics to efficiently deplete their opponent's block resource, giving them an easier window to deal damage. And, the player with the block also has outplay potential by reacting properly with their blocks and managing their resource vs. different skills. In other words, they would have to have knowledge of the game and different builds to gauge whether or not they can afford to block a certain attack.

    As a result:
    1. The tower shield player will want to save their block for large, hard-hitting attacks while letting the lower-value, smaller hits go through.
    2. The buckler player will want to block the smaller hits, and avoid blocking the large ones that could immediately deplete their resource.

    I think a system like this could be engaging and skill-based with a low skill floor and high skill ceiling. I'm curious as to what people think.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited December 2022
    I fundamentally disagree, a shield is a shield is a shield, active blocking should be the same for all archetypes, active blocking should not be a core tank mechanic, instead tanks should be given a variety of defensive support abilities which impact their and the parties survivability. Tanking should not be reduced to you get to hold the block button longer or better.

    The problem is for the later stages in terms of gear and Tank skill evolution through patches and upgrades.

    With there being no clear weakness to a tanks survivabilty, in the pursuit of "my role above all else" the class essentially becomes, for most people, extremely boring and for any daily PvP X vs X scenerio is essentially an unkillable troll and relying heavily on team mates for any conclusion (not to mention in a 1v1 with incredible gear the tank is likely unkillable and will bully any other class away from resource gathering or a PvE farming zone etc).

    I don't want to see this scenerio and I have seen/experienced it (Lineage 2/Archeage) and I don't at all why people want to literally become a literal turtle, this is fantasy but you are just a human being with armor and a shield, not some walking automatic defense unit from the year 3000.

    Anyone whos played Black Desert's Warrior class will say that active shield blocking felt great and I will personally hate to see all skill expression dissolved into "taunt, zone buff, more taunts, a weak stab bleed, pull x rinse and repeat". Basically, I despise scripted class designs.
  • TheWolfofGarTheWolfofGar Member, Alpha Two
    NishUK wrote: »
    The problem is for the later stages in terms of gear and Tank skill evolution through patches and upgrades.

    With there being no clear weakness to a tanks survivabilty, in the pursuit of "my role above all else" the class essentially becomes, for most people, extremely boring and for any daily PvP X vs X scenerio is essentially an unkillable troll and relying heavily on team mates for any conclusion (not to mention in a 1v1 with incredible gear the tank is likely unkillable and will bully any other class away from resource gathering or a PvE farming zone etc).

    Anyone whos played Black Desert's Warrior class will say that active shield blocking felt great and I will personally hate to see all skill expression dissolved into "taunt, zone buff, more taunts, a weak stab bleed, pull x rinse and repeat". Basically, I despise scripted class designs.

    tbh I'm not sure if you agree or disagree with me from your response as I don't see how making tanks active block better than all other archetypes mitigates any of your concerns. I agree a simple rinse repeat rotation can get boring however that is why tanks should have many tools available in there tool kit so that the game stays fresh. however can you provide some clarification, what skills do you think tanks ought to have beyond, Taunts, CC, Buffs, DoTs, aoes and single target dps? or are you saying they should have less skills and instead spend more time holding down the block button, as that to me sounds far far far more boring. It's been a while since i've played BDO but maybe I'll try it out and see if I like the feel however AoC isn't going for BDO levels of action combat so I'm not sure that is even a benchmark we want to set.
    NishUK wrote: »
    I don't want to see this scenerio and I have seen/experienced it (Lineage 2/Archeage) and I don't at all why people want to literally become a literal turtle, this is fantasy but you are just a human being with armor and a shield, not some walking automatic defense unit from the year 3000.

    This is mostly what caused my confusion especially with the true active block idea that was floated, what's more turtle-ish than holding a button and temporarily taking 0 dmg, while also being unable to do any offense.
    For the most part I agree, however the concession that needs to be made is if tanks are just another human in armour with a shield, they ought to do the same level of damage as any other guy with a sword. the reason tanks do less is the same game conceit that causes them to be able to take more damage than your average player. Changing this is essentially asking to do away with the trinity altogether.

    As a tank I want to be doing things, holding block isn't doing something it's waiting till you can safely act again. Ideally these things can be in the form of threat management, or party shields or other defensive support skills. active blocking should simply be a core mechanic available to all archetypes no different that your standard basic attack imo.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Think about BDO was you had attacks that attacked and blocked at the same time using your block meter. So it didn't feel like you were just sitting there holding block the entire time.

    Though it also caused BDO to suffer some other issues with people just iframing back and blocking waiting for a gap so they could grab you and one combo you. Blocking was pretty strong, best way to balance it is reducing the effectiveness of the damage absorbed by blocking. While balancing with passive blocks as well.
  • TheWolfofGarTheWolfofGar Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Think about BDO was you had attacks that attacked and blocked at the same time using your block meter. So it didn't feel like you were just sitting there holding block the entire time.

    Though it also caused BDO to suffer some other issues with people just iframing back and blocking waiting for a gap so they could grab you and one combo you. Blocking was pretty strong, best way to balance it is reducing the effectiveness of the damage absorbed by blocking. While balancing with passive blocks as well.

    were they to add something where attacks had a passive block % to damage taken during cast/animation I would be on board, that isn't really "active blocking" though you are attacking and the attack has a block/parry passive affect.
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited December 2022
    So were I given the choice I would nuke active blocking.

    Well, as you said, you don't have a choice, Intrepid is not asking if they should or shouldn't do active blocking, they are asking on feedback about stamina and how to better implement it

    all of your feedback on active blocking and the ways to better implement it - is from a negative perspective of someone that just don't want the mechanic in the game and wants passive buffs and stats, so I'm not sure what value you bring to the conversation

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  • TheWolfofGarTheWolfofGar Member, Alpha Two
    Liniker wrote: »
    So were I given the choice I would nuke active blocking.

    Well, as you said, you don't have a choice, Intrepid is not asking if they should or shouldn't do active blocking, they are asking on feedback about stamina and how to better implement it

    all of your feedback on active blocking and the ways to better implement it - is from a negative perspective of someone that just don't want the mechanic in the game and wants passive buffs and stats, so I'm not sure what value you bring to the conversation

    reducing my feedback to simply nuke it, is imo a pretty bad faith read of my response. Yes, my feedback is from a negative perspective however negative feedback isn't the same as no value especially when I do not believe I'm the only player who prefers a more tab centric style of blocking rather than a pure action skill. An example would be what Mag7spy mentioned where some skills have a secondary block effect. Additionally later in my post my feedback for how to have good active blocking is to have simply active blocking where a shield is a shield is a shield, if your character has a shield and you actively block a skill it should block the same amount as anyone else wielding that shield or weapon. Because imo good active blocking is a basic skill analogous to a basic attack. I do not think they need to develop a large system nor tie the system to their tank archetype. That is the better way to implement it, with subtlety.

    as for resources I also specifically engaged with that point
    This I would be okay with however I think if you should balance it, so they can all block the same amount of damage before being placed on cd based on the % mit. , eg a shield and dagger can both withstand 1000hp before being set to cooldown, however given shields block at 80% and daggers block at 15% you can active block longer with a dagger than you can with a shield because it takes someone taking 500dps 2.5s to block 1000hp at 80% mit and 13.33s for the one blocking 15%

    so for resources rather than a stamina bar I leaned into the amount blocked idea as I think that is a better system then simply a stamina bar. What blindside proposed is a good springboard for the resource management imo.
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  • LovercraftLovercraft Member, Alpha Two
    Hello guys, this is my third post, and I hope to not get too much ahead. I have seen this discussion regarding the Active Block / Shield / Tank / Stamina, and I would like to make my feedback.

    Active blocking should consume stamina when active, but there are other factors that should be taken in consideration:

    1) How wide is the cone of the parry in front of the character;
    2) The quantity of stamina consumed when an hit is parried;
    3) The quantity of the max stamina
    4) The quantity of stamina consumed over time (if applicable);
    5) The % of the physical damage actually blocked;
    6) The % of the magical damage actually blocked;
    7) The % of speed reduced during the active block;
    8) Does it also block conditions and debuffs?
    9) Does it also block AoE?
    10) The inability to run during the active block;
    11) The inability to dodge during the active block;
    12) Is there any cooldown to activate it again?
    13) What will happen if the stamina ends?

    Personally I would consider all these aspects during the Active Block, and I would put these basic points to all the classes:

    1) The cone is 45° in front of you, so all the classes must face the direction of the attack;
    2) It should depends by the damage absorbed, high damage parried of a character that had no shield mastery will take a lot if not all the stamina, but in this scenario would probably not kill the character as trade-off;
    3) It could depend from STATS, like Constitution (for example) and Skills for classes that will have the Shield Mastery;
    4) Stamina consumed over time when the Active Block is up could fix some kind of abuse; and could be reduced by some skills and STATS. This could make the players more cautions when to use it and how much, without abusing;
    5) As basic I would point something around 20% or 40% the reduction of the physical damage. It can be improved with skills and gear. No STATS, better to not point too much on a passive play-style;
    6) As basic I would go a little lower than the physical one, like around 20% to 30%. Magic is a powerful weapon, and should be respected like this. Also here it can be improved by skills, and gear. No STATS, as before: better to not point too much on a passive play-style;
    7) The speed of the character should be reduced from 40% to 60% as basic. Skills and Gear can improve it. No STATS, speed should have its own STAT.
    8) No, Active blocking should not block conditions or debuffs, as basic; it is an indirect attack that would still hit you. Skills and Gear should reduce the duration of the debuffs of attacks with debuffs actively blocked;
    8) I would say no as basic with no skills: you are blocking in front of you, not around you. Skills (no STATS, no Gear) could make it happens;
    10) Yes please, characters with no shield should not run when actively blocking. Skills could make it happen, still considering the % of speed loss. For example:

    If running would be basic speed x 2, the basic speed is 100 and the % of speed reduction is 20, the formula would be: (100 reduced by 20%)2 = (80)2 = 160

    Running without Actively Blocking would be 200

    Looks like a nice trade-off for skilled tanks, especially during PvP.

    11) Yes please, no dodge during Active Block, because the character is focusing on blocking. This would prevent abuse from agility types of classes to both mitigate and evade damage, and also to move fast when still blocking. Skills would allow the tank to make a little rush. It would not be exactly a dodge, and would consume Stamina, or Dodge-bar, but it could be played both defensively to evade a big attack, or to rush to defend an ally, by blocking an incoming damage.
    12) Cooldown on Active Block would prevent some kind of abuse, but it’s quite an in-depth mechanic. I say it’s not needed at the moment, active blocks should be tested in a lot of scenarios to decide this point. I would at the moment suggest a SOFT COOL-DOWN: time to activate it and deactivate. In this way other classes can adjust their play-style in this window to counter block-spammers. Also anyone who use Active Blocks would consider this window of vulnerability to measure the situation, and if it’s really the case, and prevent spammers;
    13) If the stamina ends depleted by an incoming attack, the character should sustain some kind of negative effect, or debuff like for example STUN, or the inability to regenerate Stamina for a while. Skills could decrease these negative effects.


    In this way there will be a gap to who uses shields without skills, and who have skills. Do not make me wrong: shields will still save the lives of players even if they do not have the necessary skills. But classes who actually have skills, would shine and do their job properly.


    Regarding the SHIELDS as ITEM and GEAR STATS, I would make these adjustments:

    As ITEMS, the bigger the shield:

    - More wide is the cone to block;
    - Higher % of damage blocked, both physical and magical;
    - Higher % of speed loss;
    - More time to activate and deactivate Active Block, it is a “soft cool-down”;
    - Less Stamina consummation: it blocks more damage, on a wider surface, and the speed is already way low;

    As ITEMS, the smaller the shield:

    - Less wide is the cone to block;
    - Less % of damage blocked, both physical and magical;
    - Less % of speed loss;
    - Less time to activate and deactivate Active Block, it is a “soft cool-down”;
    - More Stamina consummation: the area of the block is smaller, but the speed is not too much decreased;

    As GEAR STATS, shields could have:

    - Wider cone to block;
    - Higher % of damage blocked, physical or magical, or both;
    - Stamina consummation;
    - Stamina regen;
    - Speed when Active Block is up;
    - Shield Skills bonuses and cool-down reductions (why not?);


    Classes with SHIELD SKILLS could:

    1) Increase the cone to block the attacks during the Active Block;
    2) Decrease the stamina needed to block an attack;
    3) Increase the max Stamina to block;
    4) Increase the recovery of the Stamina;
    5) Increase the % of physical damage blocked;
    6) Increase the % of magical damage blocked;
    7) Decrease the speed penalty during the active block;
    8) Decrease the duration of conditions / debuffs blocked;
    9) In rare occasions, could block AoE;
    10) Can run during active block, still with the speed penalty
    11) Dodge becomes a little “Rush” during Active Block;
    12) Could decrease the “Soft Cool-Down” to Active or Deactivate it;
    13) Could decrease the negative effect from ending the Stamina;


    TANKS mechanics:

    As the Cleric increases Conviction when playing aggressively, tanks would increase their own resource when they block anything. I would call it WRATH for now.

    WRATH can be spend to:

    - Increase the power of some attacks;
    - Increase self-sustain;
    - Self-buffs;
    - Direct some damage from the group to the tank;

    Yeah, pretty general, but it would be cool to give some ways to the tanks to play the game on their own, without them being a “wall of HP” that needs a group to make the content, because he doesn't have enough DPS, or ways to play on his own.

    WRATH can also have synergies with the different Archetypes, for example:

    - Tank / Bard: more specialized in buffs, depending the WRATH accumulated, his buffs can be more effective, can last longer, or can be applied to more allies
    - Tank / Cleric: more specialized in heal as off-healer, sacred attacks and cleanse, WRATH can increase these abilities;
    - Tank / Mage: more specialized on the magic side, WRATH can be spent to enchant your own attacks with an element, defend more efficiently against magic attacks, or generate barriers for himself and his allies;
    - And so on…


    I hope my post could provide some considerations on the different mechanics inside the Active Blocks, and the difference among characters with and without skills, also from players with and without skill-play. I'm curious about the feedbacks regarding my long explanation.
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