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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I don't see a problem, skills and dodges should have elements of movement to them that are greater than base movement.
A game that has everything being base movement leads to new world with run meta since everyone moves at same speed on everything..
Ok it is evident that you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'll explain it as simply as I can:
Also, in New World... the dodge moves faster than base movement... Did you not know this?
You say you want to avoid what New World has done, and yet you suggest Ashes do the exact same thing.
Your logic for this is pretty weird because to revolves around a game not being balanced.
1. If someone is using dodge to get out of your range and they are a melee class as well, you are also out of their range. You do not need to use a dodge to close in on them but can simply walk and not use your dodge.
2. If they are range and they can use multiple dodges there will be a CD and mana post as well as skill slots. Meaning they most likely have less threatening skills compared to you based on how you kit yourself.
3. If your only concern is people full sprinting away then make a build and play a class that has plenty of chase to catch people. Not all classes are going to be built equal for that. A class might have slows that make it easier to catch people even with evasion skills or special cc and able to kill people quickly when they are in range.
Your points aren't exactly the most sound because you base things of character movement speed rather than how skills and actual gameplay will work together.
Again IE
Class doesn't have much mobility only having one skill but they have slows, cc's and interrupts making it very hard to get away from them once they are near you.
Class does insane burst dmg, is harder to catch people only having one mobility skill but when they land a combo on you, you are at risk of dying.
Class doesn't have as much mobility as you but has range and has no issues hitting you still.
Class doesn't have high mobility but has slows, self-sustain and is very defensive, it is hard for a kiting class to kill them and they can slowly chip away at them if they try to damage rather than play safe the entire time.
Your understanding of spacing is extremely flawed if you think a skilled player is going to let an opponent walk back into their effective range for free. Yes, you are also out of their range. Do you not see the problem here? Creating that space with a dodge roll causes issues because that space can be maintained indefinitely through movement alone unless another skill is used.
If P1 uses a directional movement ability to create space, and P2 follows with their own movement ability, that's fine. But a dodge from P1 should not force a movement ability from P2.
How are you supposed to land any of your melee skills if they are out of range? Do the math on that and see who comes out ahead in cooldowns and resources if you do not trade dodge for dodge. Don't forget to count the ability you used that caused your opponent to dodge in the first place.
That is not my concern.
I am taking into account actual gameplay.
1 action. 1 reaction.
That is the ideal. P2 defensive reaction should not force a defensive reaction from P1. That is bad gameplay.
I do not think dodge rolls should be slower than normal running though. I think they should be the same speed as out of combat movement speed (or if out of combat movement speed isn't different than in-combat movement speed, it should be the same as base movement speed).
I think dodges can move slightly faster than base movement speed relative to the animation time if the increase is less than 10%. Because that's less than 1/10 of a second worth of movement. Anything higher than that (like in the gameplay that was shown) where each dodge can create a whole second worth of movement to cover is crazy and is definitely abusable.
The dodge that was shown in the clip I linked was also insanely fast. You'd never be able to punish a poorly timed one unless you used a skill that had an animation time that was 1/4s.
Edit: Actually I just checked, the animation is slightly slower than I thought. It covers 20 frames so that's 1/3 of a second for the dodge animation.
With the average human reaction time to visual stimuli being 250 ms, the average player would need access to a skill that was 83 ms (8/100ths of a second, poor telegraph) to punish the end of a poorly timed dodge. If the dodge animation lasted 750 ms, the average player would need a skill that was 500 ms (1/2 of a second, reasonable telegraph) to punish the end of a poorly timed dodge. This is much more reasonable assuming the distance traveled is also comparable to base movement speed.
I should probably warn you that the person you are talking to does not quite believe in 'Frame Data' or any of that in terms of the specifics of what you are outlining here.
You might want to approach the conversation slightly differently (I have no suggestions, I don't do well when I try) to avoid going around in circles, rather than getting into the technical weeds of reaction times and frame data/movement frame cognition.
And with every archetype having some mana reduction abilities, you'd have to think twice before just spamming anything in your kit. I'd even assume that at least one melee archetype would have a "increase mana usage of movement abilities (or just dodges)" ability to prevent the exact issue of this thread.
Insufficient, because movement economy always trumps action economy, the game is a group game, and the premise of the thread is 'players on both sides being able to use the same tools repeatedly'.
Your walkspeed has to be better than theirs for this to work without triggering what Blindside is referring to.
I just don't really see how a stamina-based system would resolve it, unless you only have enough stamina for 1-2 dodges and the regen rate is abysmal. Having dodges at base speed kinda defeats the purpose of them for me. Though maybe I'm just too used to the kiting mechanics of L2 and that kind of design is too outdated now (most likely is).
I too, hope that Ashes is a game where just 'running away from your opponent' results in a loss of the friction that led to the PvP.
However, that will depend heavily on the PvP design PRINCIPLES which we do not, in fact, have yet. We have a decent idea of the intention relative to 'actually killing a target' but nothing relative to the principles for 'loss when kiting or feinting'.
As Blindside notes, in open world games (for now, ignore engagements in dungeons, for example), this will become an issue. It was an issue in Alpha-1 Sieges, with the only saving grace being that Sieges had a very SMALL loss-part to 'just running'.
It wasn't enough for most things though, because running is, in a team/group game, usually 'regrouping'. 1v1 balance cannot be the priority here, by Intrepid's own intent, which is probably where OP's concern comes from.
If you mean "diminishing returns" that's pretty much set in stone for an MMORPG. Else incapacitate heavy groups with larger numbers will always be meta. I mean.. you can have that, but it's definitely beyond annoying. It's not a terrible idea because it makes 1 type of play stronger than another, it's because that meta is preventing other people from playing at all. There is no fight, there's just sit there and die. If someone's gonna lose at least let them go down fighting lol.
Just like someone else said about dodging continuously being annoying, it's not just annoying it's sort of game breaking. Things might not be tuned for 1v1, but anyone with dodge has the opportunity to evade any 1v1 at most points during a fight. At least with vanish+sprint on rogues in WoW they can still get popped out and CC'd before they get out of range.
Druids in wow can escape just about anything by removing non incapacitating CC by recasting travel form, which also gives them 40% movement speed. They too can get away from just about anything but it works fine because that's just part of their class kit. Everyone having that on the other hand... It also makes them vulnerable because most of their other forms have increased armor whereas it does not, so a risk vs. reward goes on there.
Risk vs. reward would be like a rogues vanish if you want to escape combat, you could save it to have another opener in the fight and have a chance of winning, but if you do use it trying to get away you could get popped out of stealth which could very well guarantee you lose.
Of course like others have said you can make it not move faster than the base movement speed, and you can also make it have a cooldown higher than CCs. I think making CCs CDs lower than the dodge is probably the best option if dodge is a universal skill, while making dodge faster than the base movement speed. This allows dodge to be used in a more fun to use.
There should definitely be a considerable cooldown on it though, cause spamming dodge to move everywhere is for zoomers. Maybe 15 seconds?
My understanding of spacing is perfectly fine If two classes are fighting each other where you need to be in range to use your skill and you know they are going to doge you don't randomly use your skill. You move towards them with their dodge on cooldown and use your skill.
As usual you are trying to argue infinite dodge rolling arguing complete in-balance in a game makes no sense.
They also need to be in range and to use their skill to hit you....
I feel you are trying to argue like this is new world....this game design should not work like new world it already doesn't as it is.... Im unsure why u suddenly think them dodging wins a fight like they don't have opening when they are attacking.
At this point since we are going based on assuming things we can both do that.
1. Even if they use a dodge skill you will have melee and range skilsl that attack as well as have movement on them those having different variations of speed will allow some skills to be able to catch and surprise movement speeds of dodge immense. IE Warrior rush skill on target or the talked about skill where you can teleport on someone when you rush.
2. This is not a fighting game its a mmorpg as stated before, if you choose to not have chase skills that is on you if you can't catch people.
3. Dodge creating distance is not a problem, that is exactly what balancing is for. Dodging should create distance that is the point of the skill. Everyone will have their tools just because you dodge doesn't mean someone can't catch you. IE use warrior rush more use your dodge movement as well and block their move or use some protection skill and understand what they will do ahead of time.
4." True, but irrelevant." completely relevant its why your argument doesn't make sense. Dodging away isn't going to get you damage since you need to be in range to attack. You are effectively ignoring the whole loop of gameplay.
5. Again your arguments sound like you are talking about new world and not AoC both games will work far differently one is full action with bad combat, one is hybrid combat with tab and action. Dodge doesn't give you damage if you move back in AoC you need to get in range to attack again.
2. Second part of argument is skills give too much mobility which needs to be looked at balance wise.
I don't know why you are talking about frame data this has nothing to do with dodge spam which was also referenced in a alpha video of clearly not a final product of combat @Azherae.
Please note that the point of the post is the problem that arises when the opponent explicitly intends to NOT fight and waste time because it is somehow connected to their win condition, and 'how easily this can be done by all classes if a strong universal dodge is applied.
I think that, at this point, you're just not looking at the same thing at all.
As evidenced by your response to #2 and #3.
I will make one attempt at reframing it based on what I know of you, therefore.
"Either there will be a build that has more distance/dodges than any class can keep up with, or the opposite will happen."
There must be SOME build which has 'the most dodges/mobility', for WHATEVER reason. This will then become 'the build you use to troll people and escape and not fight', if that is a useful part of PvP. There is no sensible way to make the majority of builds have enough chase tools to keep up with THAT build.
For some of us, this is a problem.
I referenced this already in having a Cd on your basic dodge that is balanced around the combat. Unsure why he keeps bringing up the idea of spam dodges unless they say they are going to go that kind of route which is not the vibe I'm getting.
It was the OP that referenced frame data and I clarified to them that you are not a person who perceives that Frame Data is important in the same way that they were referencing it. I was only trying to help the conversation remain in the 'useful' category.
I believe it's probably clear enough to @Blindside by now, though, based on this post, so I thank you for skipping all that.
Though that's in part why I want a limiter on how long this kind of build can do what they can do. A bit of a turtle vs the hare situation. The quick build might be able to win a sprint, but it can't quite win a marathon. Though this obviously ties back to mana regen values, and if those are really high - there's no real point in anything I'm saying
I'll say it again.
Dodges creating distance is a problem even if you only had 1 dodge. Whether or not you can spam the dodge does not change the issue.
Dodging does not create a problem, that is short sighted to say that without understanding how a game is balanced as a whole with all aspects of combat.
Dodging is good. Dodging creating distance is bad. Are you incapable of recognizing the difference between the previous two statements? Cooldown does not impact the issue. Daredevils in Guild Wars 2 have a longer dodge distance than all other classes. They also have a higher cooldown on the dodge under certain conditions (to the point where it will completely stop recharging for several seconds). And, they also have 1 more dodge than all other classes.
Guess what? They're uncatchable when played properly. It doesn't matter how good you are at the game, they can always escape unless they heavily misplay. And that's in a game with 36 total specializations that all have unique skills.
And if you do not understand why frame data is relevant when it comes to outplaying someone wasting their skills then a significant portion of the premise behind this thread is just going over your head.
Dodge for movement has nothing to do with frame data as far as catching people that is irrelevant stuff to this current conversation. We aren't talking about frame dodging we are talking about being unable to catch someone do to movement.
I will spell it out for you, dodging should create distance between you and your target that is the point of it. Effectively you are saying you don't' want movement skills and you just want an iframe that give no additional movement.
Dodging that gives movement does not make it so you can't catch someone, if you have issues with other game balancing that is fine but as with most games some classes will be able to spec into more mobility. A mmorpg isn't a fighter game classes again have different strengths and weakness.
I'm sure players will have movement attack skills and it is up to the devs to balance out classes / kits in a way that makes sense for the style of gameplay. I don't get how you don't; understand this, you are trying to take the whole concept of the game and ignore everything else but one very certain aspect which is simply jsut dodging. A dodge on a longer cool down that adds movement will not effect the game making it impossible to catch people. So long as the game is balanced, and players use a bunch of their other skills that will have movement on them to catch people.
- The amount of frames per second the dodge lasts for = the animation time.
- The distance the dodge travels relative to the animation time (aka the frames it takes to complete) should be extremely similar to the amount of distance a player could travel in the same amount of time with base movement speed. So, if the dodge lasts 20 frames or 1/3 of a second, the dodge distance should move the player how far they would be able to run in 1/3 of a second.
- However, even if the distance were the same, a dodge animation this short also doesn't leave much room for counterplay because the average player (250 ms reaction time to visual stimuli) would need skills that are less than a 1/10 of a second to punish the end of a poorly used dodge. So instead of 1/3s (20 frames at 60 fps) dodge animation, a dodge animation that lasts at least 3/4s (45 frames at 60 fps) makes much more sense as long as the travel distance is also adjusted accordingly.
- If the distance the dodge travels relative to the animation time is HIGHER than the distance a player could travel in the same amount of time with base movement speed, then distance will be created with every dodge.
- This is relevant because:
- Distance = safety.
- If distance (aka safety) is created from dodging, it matters less if the dodge was used to dodge an important skill because SAFETY is guaranteed regardless of whether you avoided an attack.
- If distance is created, it also means the attacking player is going to want to find a way to be effective over the distance. In other words, a melee player will be forced to use a gap closer or dodge after their target in response to their dodge.
You should never feel the need to dodge to maintain effectiveness in response to your opponent dodging. No, I want movement skills. Each dodge should be an iframe that moves your character the same or an extremely similar (increase of less than 10%) amount they would be able to run in the same amount of time. Please respond to what I actually write instead of what you think I am "effectively" saying so I don't have to keep correcting you. Combat dynamics shift dramatically depending on whether there is an incentive to stay and fight. Changing the distance a skill travels by definition, will affect the game. If you cannot grasp how it will affect combat at a high level, that's not my problem.Dude cmon- I feel frustrated because I felt like we had a good conversation, and then you ghosted. Now I come back and you just kind of dismissed a lot of what we talked about and reverted back to kind of being stubborn in what you were originally saying. I think the fact that there are several people telling you that you are misunderstanding something should prompt you to be more receptive, rather than thinking its just simply a difference of opinion. I am going to try to address several misunderstandings and I respectfully ask that you would try to digest everything all together as a whole rather than as individual points to understand what is being communicated.
Also- it does not matter "what was shown off yet by Intrepid". This is all just advice on how mechanics work and what meta they create. This does not require testing, nor does it require waiting to hear what Intrepid is doing. Most of these analysis based comments are simply facts about how things work, and warnings on what to avoid before its too late.
Please follow along:
First- you have to understand that when talking about "design" its looking at the end result of how different players use mechanics relative to each other. Nobody is talking about a specific mechanic all by itself without any context. When he is saying that "dodges shouldn't create distance", it should be quite clear by now that he means relative to the other movement options that are available between both players. He is not saying dodges literally shouldn't move the player, its about the fact that if dodges are the most effective way of moving the player (even if this is only true in certain situations), then both players use that option to control distance to the best of their ability, hense if you choose not to dodge roll but your opponent does, then they control distance gradually better, meaning if someone retreats then the only way to chase would be to dodge roll after them- so the analysis is about whether that dodge roll based distance control is a good meta to have. Within this context, is what the discussion is about. No other part of the combat system is relavant to this specifc discussion, as regardless of the rest of the combat, this experience will still exist, and is what is being addressed.
Balance isn't really the only point being discussed- we are discussing how to blend both balance and a fun meta. So just because you say "but wait theres nothing wrong with this since it could still be balanced in a different way, so you are being short-sighted" this does not justify the type of meta that a specific thing creates, regardless of how minor it is, and regardless of whether its balanced or not. Most of his points are not neccessarily solely about balance, its about trying to balance around creating a good type of experience.
Your whole argument is acting like nobody knows how to play a game and beat an opponent who rolls lot. Your argument is simply based on "how you would win at combat" if it were designed a certain way. Nobody is talking about that, they are talking about why the method of winning is not a good experience, and should be avoided through designing a different system of combat, of which "how you win at combat" is a much better experience. For example: lets say rolls are "sometimes" the best way of creating distance- even if things are "balanced" by having skills that can actually chase more effectively than the enemy can retreat using their skills, then this doesn't change the type of gameplay when skills are not being used. He is saying that in the situations that rolls are the best way of creating distance (such as if skills are on cooldown) that this could make for bad gameplay since it would involve chasing retreating rolls with pursuing rolls to compete with distance control.
So in that example, the overall system could potentially be balanced, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved through isolating the specific mechanic that could lead to sub-optimal gameplay experience.
1. Nothing falls apart, you are off topic when you bring that up.
2. Frame data is completely relavant because it determines "what is being spammed" due to its effectiveness at achiveing a specific goal in a specific situation. If dodges have the best movement frame data, then they will be the best option for movement, thus leading to the discussion at hand regarding what the gameplay experience would look like if dodge is the best form of movement, which again is based on the frame data.
This doesn't change what the meta gameplay experience is like when dodge is the best form of distance control in specific situations.
The rest of the combat system only matters in terms of if we were only talking about balance, we are talking about the gameplay experience as well, and how to achieve balance in the combat system while also supporting good gameplay experience standards.
Please reread his original post to understand why he believes that situations where rolling as the best method of creating distance can lead to inferior gameplay experience.
To be clearer, when I mentioned this before, I was trying to clarify that the poster in question does not subscribe to the notion that frame data directly impacts the gameplay experience.
I do not believe that insisting on it will lead to anything, based on my knowledge of how Mag7 plays games where frame data is relevant, I can confirm that the particular approach taken is not 'one that uses the technical concepts related to Frame Data'.
In fact, Mag's play consistently indicates that his style is true to his principles as they are showcased here, mostly ignoring the related concepts in battle, and accepting the outcome of that, win or lose.
That's why I think it would be very difficult to approach this conversation from the perspective of 'insisting that Frame Data is relevant'. Not in the sense of 'well let's use something else less precise', but in the sense of 'you are talking to a person that goes almost entirely by gut feeling about how quick/useful any given option is and ignores the underlying data entirely'.
If thats the case then its a shame- because why even be on a forum to discuss things if there is no desire to understand how things work and improve upon them? Mag just needs to be force fed frame data until he is wavedashing around his house while animation canceling his thread replies.