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Hello everyone, New generation of MMORPG
Serafin7
Member
Welcome everyone,
I’m newcomer here. Because I heard that developers want community to create AoC, I decided to share my opinion with you how new generation MMORPG should look like because I see in AoC some potential for my new MMORPG. Really sorry if there will be some English language mistakes but it’s not my national language.
At the beginning few words about me. I have been playing MMORPG’s since 20 years, World of Warcraft-8 years, AION-6 months, Guild Wars 2 – 6 months, The Elder Scrolls Online – 6 years, Black Desert Online – 6 months. I mentioned about it because I will make reference to this games in the topic often to help devs and you my friends to easier understand me and what I’m talking about.
So begin, how new generation great MMORPG should looks like in my opinion:
1. No for P2W in the game. P2W is something awful and finally is reason why people with ambitions stop playing in the game. ( bad example Diablo Immoral - horrible P2W, BDO. Good ex. ESO, WoW).
2. AoC don’t be shame if you take many of solutions from other games, don’t try make something completely different. Take best 70% ideas from other games, give us 30% something new, and everything in new beautiful graphic.
3. AoC world:
- One huge world, no loading screens when you go from one to the other location (bad example ESO, good ex WoW and BDO). It’s crucial how we fell the world.
- Give us huge mountains in some location where we can climb like 10 min to the pick in the clouds.
- World where we can go almost everywhere and do whatever we want.
- NPC, animals, monsters life and walking, running, real behavior. Not say in 1 place and waiting for you ( Bad ex. most of MMORPGs)
4. Interface and messages:
- At the moment AoC interface looks really old fashion like in the game 20 years before.
- No for hundreds of announcement, hundreds of flashing icons, hundreds of daily messages with reward from game for loading first time to the game every day (bad ex. Diablo Immortal, Guild Wars 2 – that was one of the main reasons why I stop play in this game). That is so boring and annoying if you see flashing icons every 2 min because game want to give you something for nothing.
5. Quests
- No for too many quests. (bad ex WoW). Quests should be something maybe not rare but sth what we want to do, with interesting story. With great reward and best xp. (quality not quantity).
- No for daily quests, it’s horrible boring in long term. It cause we stay in one place long time especially if someone have not much time for playing every day.
- 50% of quests are constant implement in the game, 50% are casually. That mean if we visit some village/area again for ex. in 7 days later there can be something new.
- Because number of Quests shouldn’t be too high and Q are great experience source, It shouldn’t show us where to go in map and magical way in autorun. That mean also that quests should consist of quite simply words what no English language players can understand. (Bad ex. ESO – horrible English sophisticated words in the quests description, good ex. WoW)
6. Xp reward
If we play in the game we should earn experience level in proportion how rare is obtain it for activity. My suggestion is for 1 hour of activity (example of proportion in 1 hour):
- 20 000 xp Castle siege (PvP)
- 10 000 xp Node siege (PvP)
- 7 000 xp Term events (PvE)
- 5 000 xp Succeed finish raid +20 players (PvE)
- 4 000 xp Term quests (PvE)
- 3 000 xp Ocean battles (PvP)
- 2 500 xp Caravan battles (PvP)
- 2 500 xp Main Quest line story (PvE)
- 2 000 xp Dungeons +4 playrs (PvE)
- 2 000 xp Quests (PvE)
- 1 500 xp Typical PvP
- 1 000 xp Grinding – just killing monsters (PvE), mainly fester source of exp in other games
- 300 xp others activities like gathering ect.
7. PvP – I love PvP and I play MMORPG mainly for PvP. I like do PvE to be better in PvP.
- 1 well skilled player lvl 30 should be able to overcome 1 medium skilled player lvl 40 (1 vs 1)
- In End Game 1 well skilled player with good gear should be able to overcome like 5 medium skilled players with medium gear quality (1 vs 5)
- Logical fight (Bad ex. BDO, good ex. WoW, ESO)
8. Speed of action:
To compare I give you some example, let’s give some scale of points for speed of action:
- 20 points : Black Desert Online (for me everything is illogical, characters jumps like monkeys in the circus, Asians fight model is horrible for me, everything is too fast, you die don’t even know why or when – main reason why I sop play this game. Lack of logical PvP.
- 8 pints : New World (action speed is high and dynamic but logical)
- 7 points: ESO (everything is very logical, skills, dodge rolls, block system, action speed give you opportunity for react in situation). Good model of PvP but Fights only in one location “Cyrodiil” was boring as hell in long term.
- 6 points: WoW. Everything is logical. Many of action skills and contraction. Gives opportunity to be very skilled player. Greatest PvP model in MMORPG game world. Open world PvP, Battlegrounds, Arena rated 2vs2/3vs3/5vs5 and “league system” where best teams go to the top of ranking and fight with better players, weaker fight with weaker. It is the best and the most exited PvP I have ever seen.
- AoC: ATM I could say ( I saw YT movies only) maybe 4-5 points. Honestly AoC fights looks too lazy. Maybe because lvl characters in this movies is low. I don’t know. But best advice is:
4 on low lvl (beginning of the game) and let’s say 7,5 in the End Game ( something between ESO and New World). Skills are logical and you have a bit of time/chance to react/counter-react for your enemy skills.
- Good example of PvP model : WoW, ESO (all skills are logical, you can become a hero)
- Bad example of PvP : BDO (too fast, illogical skills, very long time before you can try any PvP, lack of league system in battlegrounds cause you die instantly ect…), Diablo Immortal ( horrible P2W)
- Worst example of PvP: Guild Wars 2: Battlegrounds were quite acceptable but this one big map with PvP area… I could say PvP doesn’t exist in this game were 50 players + go together and kill everything on the way, you die instantly. You can’t do anything alone. No skilled logical fight just one huge group vs other huge group. For me this kind of PvP doesn’t have any sense.
9. Items/Sets:
- My suggestion for this element something what people like and know well + something new:
White items, green items , blue items (epic), yellow (legendary)
In End Game (lvl 50 if I remember correctly ) Tiers – That mean you can upgrade this items from 1-10 by professions where to upgrade legendary you need much more ingredients than upgrade epic
- Item set: 2 types of item sets.
First: acceptable for all classes – mainly improve all skills or give some special effect ( ex. ESO)
Second: class sets concentrate to improve one skill (ex. Diablo Immortal). Let’s say 6 different sets for each class for 6 skills.
Example of class sets: Skill “Hammer jump”( your character jump up to 30m and after fall hit all enemies in the area 10m)(3 modification:1st fire: burn ground for 6 sec and cause DoT, 2nd ice: slow down attack speed and move speed for 5 sec, 3rd thunder: fall down all enemies and stun them for 2 sec)
2 items of set: shorter cooldown by 20%
4 items of set: improve range by 20%
6 items of set: (should be something extra) For each 1m you travel before fall you add 1% dmg ( max +36% dmg).
- I would be glad to see big 2H Hammer weapon in this game. And create character look like PALADIN from Warcraft
10. Skills.
- Rule: From Zero to Hero (Give us become a true hero in End Game)
Light armor classes: something like levitation where every sec in levi cost more and more mana.
Medium armor classes: skill to climb on trees, walls, houses.
Heavy armor classes : hmmm maybe long jump skill.
- Each character can use each weapon (but mainly staff for tank is useless- that is ex.)
- Each weapon have own skill line (good ex. ESO)
- In End Game paragon level system (extra points to improve stats and maybe something like perk card system form Fallout/ or talismans to keep AoC species, every 30 lvl you will get empty slot where you can put this talisman( improve some skill dmg, range, cooldown ext.) These talismans we can droop in raids, or win in arena rated PvP battles, or other End Game activities and have different quality as well.
11. Clear rules for everything
- No hidden stats, no hidden mmr, no hidden mitigation, no hidden caps (bad ex. Diablo Immortal PvP, and most of GAMES), nothing is hidden and not clear.
- Create Character shit where every dmg, defence, run speed ect. Is clearly explained
For example you don’t want that one character will be run with 10% of basic speed and other with 150% of speed. Let’s say: boots give 40 points to run speed, legs give 20 points. So In Character shit will be clearly that every point add to run speed from 1-20% above basic speed will give 1% to run speed (1-20%), from (20-40%) every point to run speed will give 0,5% to speed run, from (40-60%) every point run speed give 0,2% to run speed. So everyone will know if invest more points in something or not, and know that 60 points to run speed improve his run by 40% not by 60% as he was thinking. That is something what make me frustrated in other games that after many hours of farming something the reality finally occurred different than theory.
And do the same with all stats dmg, defense (no hidden mitigation with complicated formulas)
12. Customization:
Best example of customization system is ESO, (Bad ex. New World- I only saw in YT really don’t like how characters looks like). It’s really important for me to looks very impressively in End Game. In my opinion we should droop parts on some customization sets parts (shits) from monsters/bosses
13. End Game:
End Game in MMORPG must be just beginning of real fun. Beginning of run to best gear and true power of our character.
14. Best of, and why I stop play GAMES:
WoW :
+ Great PvP system, a lot of fun and logical PvP, you can become very skilled player
+ Almost one huge world in one connected content (good world filling)
- To many quests, and similar quests
- Was bored with old fashion graphic
Why STOP: Because need something new after 8 years. Sth. with better graphic.
Guild Wars 2:
+ Fine graphic
+ Area events like monster attack on village.
- PVP: lack of normal PvP where you can mean something just one huge group vs another
- Hundreds of flashing items every 2 min where Devs want to reward me for nothing. Can’t concentrate on knowing and adventure the world in peace.
Why STOP: Mainly PvP doesn’t have any sense.
AION:
+ good graphic
Why STOP: PvP was rare and certain
Black Desert Online:
+ Really nice world connect in one huge content with nice graphic (filling world)
+ Interesting Node system idea.
- Too many dialy quest what keep me in one area, and do the same over and over.
- Too complicated game to understand all rules
- P2W
- Asian imagination: rabbit pets or other pets. Don’t like any pets in the game especially if can help you
- Asian Fight model especially in PvP. Completely mess in PvP. Illogical fight and skills. Everything is dancing and jumping like monkeys in circus.
- After few months the game didn’t give me many opportunity for PvP. I remember just few arenas (more battleground), after long queue after beginning I was dead in 1 sec. So also lack of any league PvP system.
Why STOP: All of minuses but mainly illogical PvP.
Elder Scroll Online:
+ Good PvP, logical skills, good action speed
+ Huge amount of item sets
- World as many maps where I can’t go everywhere with many loading screens caused I fell this world very plastic/fake.
- quite graphic and everything NPCs, monsters stay in one place.
- Was bored in One the same PvP area Cyrodiil + Imperial City. Battleground were nice.
- My main class nightblade (rogue)… hmmm I haven’t found the real nature of rogue in this game. Stealth system in PvP didn’t work . And nature of assassin ( attack from behind) don’t work in ESO. In WoW it works very well. So finally I was a Nightblade but fight like typical warrior.
Why STOP: After 6 years I was bored but this game have really good logical PvP.
Diablo Immortal:
+ Interesting community system and fight about Immortal power that cause players really connect and cooperate together. Finally even layouts and conspiracies takes action behind the game.
- Horrible P2W what fells especially in PvP
- many others like killing monsters in order to killing the same monsters in higher lvl
Why STOP: Like I was thinking P2W will finish this game ASAP so compete with players 2 or 3 x stronger than you doesn’t have any sense.
15. Finally advice for AoC and Intrepid studio. Don’t want to earn as much money as passible as soon as passible because if there will be any unfair P2W, AoC also will be dead game as soon as passible like for ex. Diablo Immortal. Give us great new generation fair MMORPG and I believe that AoC will become new king for many years.
Thanks everyone for read my point of view, I ‘m really interested if you agree with me or disagree ? Maybe you like some points or other you could improve and add something. And finally I would be glad if some devs from Intrepid studio also give answer and opinion.
I’m newcomer here. Because I heard that developers want community to create AoC, I decided to share my opinion with you how new generation MMORPG should look like because I see in AoC some potential for my new MMORPG. Really sorry if there will be some English language mistakes but it’s not my national language.
At the beginning few words about me. I have been playing MMORPG’s since 20 years, World of Warcraft-8 years, AION-6 months, Guild Wars 2 – 6 months, The Elder Scrolls Online – 6 years, Black Desert Online – 6 months. I mentioned about it because I will make reference to this games in the topic often to help devs and you my friends to easier understand me and what I’m talking about.
So begin, how new generation great MMORPG should looks like in my opinion:
1. No for P2W in the game. P2W is something awful and finally is reason why people with ambitions stop playing in the game. ( bad example Diablo Immoral - horrible P2W, BDO. Good ex. ESO, WoW).
2. AoC don’t be shame if you take many of solutions from other games, don’t try make something completely different. Take best 70% ideas from other games, give us 30% something new, and everything in new beautiful graphic.
3. AoC world:
- One huge world, no loading screens when you go from one to the other location (bad example ESO, good ex WoW and BDO). It’s crucial how we fell the world.
- Give us huge mountains in some location where we can climb like 10 min to the pick in the clouds.
- World where we can go almost everywhere and do whatever we want.
- NPC, animals, monsters life and walking, running, real behavior. Not say in 1 place and waiting for you ( Bad ex. most of MMORPGs)
4. Interface and messages:
- At the moment AoC interface looks really old fashion like in the game 20 years before.
- No for hundreds of announcement, hundreds of flashing icons, hundreds of daily messages with reward from game for loading first time to the game every day (bad ex. Diablo Immortal, Guild Wars 2 – that was one of the main reasons why I stop play in this game). That is so boring and annoying if you see flashing icons every 2 min because game want to give you something for nothing.
5. Quests
- No for too many quests. (bad ex WoW). Quests should be something maybe not rare but sth what we want to do, with interesting story. With great reward and best xp. (quality not quantity).
- No for daily quests, it’s horrible boring in long term. It cause we stay in one place long time especially if someone have not much time for playing every day.
- 50% of quests are constant implement in the game, 50% are casually. That mean if we visit some village/area again for ex. in 7 days later there can be something new.
- Because number of Quests shouldn’t be too high and Q are great experience source, It shouldn’t show us where to go in map and magical way in autorun. That mean also that quests should consist of quite simply words what no English language players can understand. (Bad ex. ESO – horrible English sophisticated words in the quests description, good ex. WoW)
6. Xp reward
If we play in the game we should earn experience level in proportion how rare is obtain it for activity. My suggestion is for 1 hour of activity (example of proportion in 1 hour):
- 20 000 xp Castle siege (PvP)
- 10 000 xp Node siege (PvP)
- 7 000 xp Term events (PvE)
- 5 000 xp Succeed finish raid +20 players (PvE)
- 4 000 xp Term quests (PvE)
- 3 000 xp Ocean battles (PvP)
- 2 500 xp Caravan battles (PvP)
- 2 500 xp Main Quest line story (PvE)
- 2 000 xp Dungeons +4 playrs (PvE)
- 2 000 xp Quests (PvE)
- 1 500 xp Typical PvP
- 1 000 xp Grinding – just killing monsters (PvE), mainly fester source of exp in other games
- 300 xp others activities like gathering ect.
7. PvP – I love PvP and I play MMORPG mainly for PvP. I like do PvE to be better in PvP.
- 1 well skilled player lvl 30 should be able to overcome 1 medium skilled player lvl 40 (1 vs 1)
- In End Game 1 well skilled player with good gear should be able to overcome like 5 medium skilled players with medium gear quality (1 vs 5)
- Logical fight (Bad ex. BDO, good ex. WoW, ESO)
8. Speed of action:
To compare I give you some example, let’s give some scale of points for speed of action:
- 20 points : Black Desert Online (for me everything is illogical, characters jumps like monkeys in the circus, Asians fight model is horrible for me, everything is too fast, you die don’t even know why or when – main reason why I sop play this game. Lack of logical PvP.
- 8 pints : New World (action speed is high and dynamic but logical)
- 7 points: ESO (everything is very logical, skills, dodge rolls, block system, action speed give you opportunity for react in situation). Good model of PvP but Fights only in one location “Cyrodiil” was boring as hell in long term.
- 6 points: WoW. Everything is logical. Many of action skills and contraction. Gives opportunity to be very skilled player. Greatest PvP model in MMORPG game world. Open world PvP, Battlegrounds, Arena rated 2vs2/3vs3/5vs5 and “league system” where best teams go to the top of ranking and fight with better players, weaker fight with weaker. It is the best and the most exited PvP I have ever seen.
- AoC: ATM I could say ( I saw YT movies only) maybe 4-5 points. Honestly AoC fights looks too lazy. Maybe because lvl characters in this movies is low. I don’t know. But best advice is:
4 on low lvl (beginning of the game) and let’s say 7,5 in the End Game ( something between ESO and New World). Skills are logical and you have a bit of time/chance to react/counter-react for your enemy skills.
- Good example of PvP model : WoW, ESO (all skills are logical, you can become a hero)
- Bad example of PvP : BDO (too fast, illogical skills, very long time before you can try any PvP, lack of league system in battlegrounds cause you die instantly ect…), Diablo Immortal ( horrible P2W)
- Worst example of PvP: Guild Wars 2: Battlegrounds were quite acceptable but this one big map with PvP area… I could say PvP doesn’t exist in this game were 50 players + go together and kill everything on the way, you die instantly. You can’t do anything alone. No skilled logical fight just one huge group vs other huge group. For me this kind of PvP doesn’t have any sense.
9. Items/Sets:
- My suggestion for this element something what people like and know well + something new:
White items, green items , blue items (epic), yellow (legendary)
In End Game (lvl 50 if I remember correctly ) Tiers – That mean you can upgrade this items from 1-10 by professions where to upgrade legendary you need much more ingredients than upgrade epic
- Item set: 2 types of item sets.
First: acceptable for all classes – mainly improve all skills or give some special effect ( ex. ESO)
Second: class sets concentrate to improve one skill (ex. Diablo Immortal). Let’s say 6 different sets for each class for 6 skills.
Example of class sets: Skill “Hammer jump”( your character jump up to 30m and after fall hit all enemies in the area 10m)(3 modification:1st fire: burn ground for 6 sec and cause DoT, 2nd ice: slow down attack speed and move speed for 5 sec, 3rd thunder: fall down all enemies and stun them for 2 sec)
2 items of set: shorter cooldown by 20%
4 items of set: improve range by 20%
6 items of set: (should be something extra) For each 1m you travel before fall you add 1% dmg ( max +36% dmg).
- I would be glad to see big 2H Hammer weapon in this game. And create character look like PALADIN from Warcraft
10. Skills.
- Rule: From Zero to Hero (Give us become a true hero in End Game)
Light armor classes: something like levitation where every sec in levi cost more and more mana.
Medium armor classes: skill to climb on trees, walls, houses.
Heavy armor classes : hmmm maybe long jump skill.
- Each character can use each weapon (but mainly staff for tank is useless- that is ex.)
- Each weapon have own skill line (good ex. ESO)
- In End Game paragon level system (extra points to improve stats and maybe something like perk card system form Fallout/ or talismans to keep AoC species, every 30 lvl you will get empty slot where you can put this talisman( improve some skill dmg, range, cooldown ext.) These talismans we can droop in raids, or win in arena rated PvP battles, or other End Game activities and have different quality as well.
11. Clear rules for everything
- No hidden stats, no hidden mmr, no hidden mitigation, no hidden caps (bad ex. Diablo Immortal PvP, and most of GAMES), nothing is hidden and not clear.
- Create Character shit where every dmg, defence, run speed ect. Is clearly explained
For example you don’t want that one character will be run with 10% of basic speed and other with 150% of speed. Let’s say: boots give 40 points to run speed, legs give 20 points. So In Character shit will be clearly that every point add to run speed from 1-20% above basic speed will give 1% to run speed (1-20%), from (20-40%) every point to run speed will give 0,5% to speed run, from (40-60%) every point run speed give 0,2% to run speed. So everyone will know if invest more points in something or not, and know that 60 points to run speed improve his run by 40% not by 60% as he was thinking. That is something what make me frustrated in other games that after many hours of farming something the reality finally occurred different than theory.
And do the same with all stats dmg, defense (no hidden mitigation with complicated formulas)
12. Customization:
Best example of customization system is ESO, (Bad ex. New World- I only saw in YT really don’t like how characters looks like). It’s really important for me to looks very impressively in End Game. In my opinion we should droop parts on some customization sets parts (shits) from monsters/bosses
13. End Game:
End Game in MMORPG must be just beginning of real fun. Beginning of run to best gear and true power of our character.
14. Best of, and why I stop play GAMES:
WoW :
+ Great PvP system, a lot of fun and logical PvP, you can become very skilled player
+ Almost one huge world in one connected content (good world filling)
- To many quests, and similar quests
- Was bored with old fashion graphic
Why STOP: Because need something new after 8 years. Sth. with better graphic.
Guild Wars 2:
+ Fine graphic
+ Area events like monster attack on village.
- PVP: lack of normal PvP where you can mean something just one huge group vs another
- Hundreds of flashing items every 2 min where Devs want to reward me for nothing. Can’t concentrate on knowing and adventure the world in peace.
Why STOP: Mainly PvP doesn’t have any sense.
AION:
+ good graphic
Why STOP: PvP was rare and certain
Black Desert Online:
+ Really nice world connect in one huge content with nice graphic (filling world)
+ Interesting Node system idea.
- Too many dialy quest what keep me in one area, and do the same over and over.
- Too complicated game to understand all rules
- P2W
- Asian imagination: rabbit pets or other pets. Don’t like any pets in the game especially if can help you
- Asian Fight model especially in PvP. Completely mess in PvP. Illogical fight and skills. Everything is dancing and jumping like monkeys in circus.
- After few months the game didn’t give me many opportunity for PvP. I remember just few arenas (more battleground), after long queue after beginning I was dead in 1 sec. So also lack of any league PvP system.
Why STOP: All of minuses but mainly illogical PvP.
Elder Scroll Online:
+ Good PvP, logical skills, good action speed
+ Huge amount of item sets
- World as many maps where I can’t go everywhere with many loading screens caused I fell this world very plastic/fake.
- quite graphic and everything NPCs, monsters stay in one place.
- Was bored in One the same PvP area Cyrodiil + Imperial City. Battleground were nice.
- My main class nightblade (rogue)… hmmm I haven’t found the real nature of rogue in this game. Stealth system in PvP didn’t work . And nature of assassin ( attack from behind) don’t work in ESO. In WoW it works very well. So finally I was a Nightblade but fight like typical warrior.
Why STOP: After 6 years I was bored but this game have really good logical PvP.
Diablo Immortal:
+ Interesting community system and fight about Immortal power that cause players really connect and cooperate together. Finally even layouts and conspiracies takes action behind the game.
- Horrible P2W what fells especially in PvP
- many others like killing monsters in order to killing the same monsters in higher lvl
Why STOP: Like I was thinking P2W will finish this game ASAP so compete with players 2 or 3 x stronger than you doesn’t have any sense.
15. Finally advice for AoC and Intrepid studio. Don’t want to earn as much money as passible as soon as passible because if there will be any unfair P2W, AoC also will be dead game as soon as passible like for ex. Diablo Immortal. Give us great new generation fair MMORPG and I believe that AoC will become new king for many years.
Thanks everyone for read my point of view, I ‘m really interested if you agree with me or disagree ? Maybe you like some points or other you could improve and add something. And finally I would be glad if some devs from Intrepid studio also give answer and opinion.
0
Comments
Here is the link to an extensive wiki about the game: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
You will see there is a lot of your wishes, like NO PTW, already documented.
Welcome to the forums!
Many people here agree with you on most points (1, 2, 3, ~4, 5, 8, ~10, ~11, 12, ~13)
You can read more about Ashes' design pillars here:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars
Some comments about your other points:
If you're new, please remember that most information about the game is on the community wiki:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
And also remember, most PvP in Ashes of Creation is PURPLE.
That is relly nice to hear sb read it and I know that noone like read as long ideas in forum as mine
I know that many of my ideas are alredy implent in the game but I had to add my all overview opinion for many crusial aspects.
That is interesting what you "maouw" said. People don"t want item sets and paragon system level. Honestly it sounds like dispose of 80% End Game activities. So what we will do in End Game whithout it ? Only PvP?
Does someboody can agree with me ? And agree with my sugesion for Item/sets ? (Point 9).
How do they think that they can have no end game? One major part of this is how the node (city) system will work. There are close to 100 nodes which can each grow into a huge city, but each node's growth is constrained by the size of the nodes next to it. As a node grows, the mobs, caverns, dungeons, quests and other features in the area change. If a node is successfully sieged, then it goes back to stage -0- and nearby nodes can grow. So, as different nodes grow and fall, all of the game changes and new features are revealed. This means that the game is ever changing and NEVER gets to a fully developed 'end game' situation.
Great innovative design!
Im pretty sure item sets are already planned- as far as I know the gear is going to be mainly tied to the stats, and less tied to skills/weapons though, which is probably better for build variety.