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Active Block+Magical Barrier and Defensive Abilities
Voeltz
Member
So this is my first created Discussion but I felt it was a necessary and important one with all the talk about active block/dodge roll. This past stream got me thinking about defensive abilities since active block doesn't make sense with certain weapon types, particularly ranged and magical ones. A dodge roll or sidestep/backstep could be a universal ability, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but blocking with a wand+book or a bow? It just seems wrong. What could those weapon types be given instead as a defense? My suggestion is to give each weapon combo/group their own defensive ability. That way, it's up to the player how they want to tailor their play-style.
I think it's best for all these abilities to share a resource such as stamina/energy, to prevent spam or turtle meta. It should be a mechanic for rewarding well timed uses to avoid/block big hits or combos, not something you are constantly using by default. Energy seems to fit best considering mana already exists and to incorporate the magic shield part of my idea. Call it what you will.
Since we don't know specifically what weapon combos can be duel wielded, we will assume only weapons of the same type, so 2 melee or 2 magic. If it is possible to mix them, for example a scepter and a 1 handed axe, the defensive ability would have to be decided by either the main hand or off hand weapon equipped.
With this setup, every class would have 2 forms of defensives: 1 from your equipped weapons, and the 2nd being Universal.
Melee (dual wield, 2 handed) - Parry
Shield - Block
Ranged - Sidestep
Magic (Scepter, Staff, Wand, Spellbook) - Magical Barrier
Universal - Dodge
Parry - a weaker version of block, only works against melee attacks and mitigates a percentage of damage depending on weapon size (Dual wield starting at 50%, 2-Handed 75%). Can be upgraded through the weapon or class skill tree to block a higher % of the damage and/or defend physical projectiles (thrown weapons, arrows, etc.)
Block- The best form of defense, blocks a percentage of damage (Starting at 75%) from melee attacks and physical projectiles. Can be upgraded through the weapon and/or class skill tree to block a higher % of the damage, magical projectiles and directional magic attacks (frontal cones, channels). Blocking with a shield by default would drain less energy than all other weapon types, and the Tank class specifically would have access to more upgrades for it.
Magical barrier- blocks magical projectiles and directional magic attacks. Can be upgraded within the weapon skill tree and/or archetype to block physical projectiles, reduce energy loss from blocks, etc.
All forms of parry/block/magical barrier would have a 160 degree forward facing blocking angle forcing the user to be facing the right direction. This would make the user vulnerable from attacks from the sides and the rear. I think this part is very important because it allows for more dynamic gameplay where movement matters and it becomes possible to outsmart your opponent by using dodge or movement skills offensively to get around their defenses.
Sidestep- a shorter range form of dodge that allows the user to step/dash to the side or backwards depending on wasd keys, and avoid incoming damage of all types. Can be upgraded within the skill tree or archetype in various ways, like reduced energy cost, etc.
Dodge - a versatile defensive movement skill that can be used to avoid all types of damage by repositioning, avoiding projectiles or powerful attacks. Can be upgraded within the skill tree or archetype to roll further distances and/or cost less energy.
Personally I wouldn't give Dodge or Sidestep I-frames as I believe that takes half of the skill out of the equation. I think if you dodge roll into a fireball or some other attack you should take the damage, but that also depends on other decisions made regarding the combat direction. I think Intrepid are off to a good start to being able to go without it, as we know projectiles are not heat seeking like most other MMOs and melee attacks have a frontal cone, I-frames would not be necessary to make it a useful ability.
On top of this, I would make sure to include abilities available to the more offensive oriented class types that penetrate block/parry. For example, ranger could have a penetrating shot ability that bypasses block/parry but has a chargup time and has to be manually aimed, Fighter might have a devastating strike that penetrates block/parry that is very powerful but has a windup making it somewhat telegraphed/predictable. Tank could have impenetrable defense which is a short channel that can block all penetrating attacks if timed right.
So the general idea here is to provide a variety of defensives matching the weapon type that all have their strengths and weaknesses. Melee's defensive weakness is projectiles, Shield's while strong defensively has a lack of offensive build paths, ranged has the ability to avoid all damage types but requires skill and proper timing to do it, Magic's is physical damage. Each defensive ability can be specced into within the weapon and class tree to enhance them in some way. Certain classes would have higher availability of upgrades and be better suited for specific weapon types, such as Tank with shields, Fighter with dual-wield/2 Handed, and Ranger with bows.
I think it's best for all these abilities to share a resource such as stamina/energy, to prevent spam or turtle meta. It should be a mechanic for rewarding well timed uses to avoid/block big hits or combos, not something you are constantly using by default. Energy seems to fit best considering mana already exists and to incorporate the magic shield part of my idea. Call it what you will.
Since we don't know specifically what weapon combos can be duel wielded, we will assume only weapons of the same type, so 2 melee or 2 magic. If it is possible to mix them, for example a scepter and a 1 handed axe, the defensive ability would have to be decided by either the main hand or off hand weapon equipped.
With this setup, every class would have 2 forms of defensives: 1 from your equipped weapons, and the 2nd being Universal.
Melee (dual wield, 2 handed) - Parry
Shield - Block
Ranged - Sidestep
Magic (Scepter, Staff, Wand, Spellbook) - Magical Barrier
Universal - Dodge
Parry - a weaker version of block, only works against melee attacks and mitigates a percentage of damage depending on weapon size (Dual wield starting at 50%, 2-Handed 75%). Can be upgraded through the weapon or class skill tree to block a higher % of the damage and/or defend physical projectiles (thrown weapons, arrows, etc.)
Block- The best form of defense, blocks a percentage of damage (Starting at 75%) from melee attacks and physical projectiles. Can be upgraded through the weapon and/or class skill tree to block a higher % of the damage, magical projectiles and directional magic attacks (frontal cones, channels). Blocking with a shield by default would drain less energy than all other weapon types, and the Tank class specifically would have access to more upgrades for it.
Magical barrier- blocks magical projectiles and directional magic attacks. Can be upgraded within the weapon skill tree and/or archetype to block physical projectiles, reduce energy loss from blocks, etc.
All forms of parry/block/magical barrier would have a 160 degree forward facing blocking angle forcing the user to be facing the right direction. This would make the user vulnerable from attacks from the sides and the rear. I think this part is very important because it allows for more dynamic gameplay where movement matters and it becomes possible to outsmart your opponent by using dodge or movement skills offensively to get around their defenses.
Sidestep- a shorter range form of dodge that allows the user to step/dash to the side or backwards depending on wasd keys, and avoid incoming damage of all types. Can be upgraded within the skill tree or archetype in various ways, like reduced energy cost, etc.
Dodge - a versatile defensive movement skill that can be used to avoid all types of damage by repositioning, avoiding projectiles or powerful attacks. Can be upgraded within the skill tree or archetype to roll further distances and/or cost less energy.
Personally I wouldn't give Dodge or Sidestep I-frames as I believe that takes half of the skill out of the equation. I think if you dodge roll into a fireball or some other attack you should take the damage, but that also depends on other decisions made regarding the combat direction. I think Intrepid are off to a good start to being able to go without it, as we know projectiles are not heat seeking like most other MMOs and melee attacks have a frontal cone, I-frames would not be necessary to make it a useful ability.
On top of this, I would make sure to include abilities available to the more offensive oriented class types that penetrate block/parry. For example, ranger could have a penetrating shot ability that bypasses block/parry but has a chargup time and has to be manually aimed, Fighter might have a devastating strike that penetrates block/parry that is very powerful but has a windup making it somewhat telegraphed/predictable. Tank could have impenetrable defense which is a short channel that can block all penetrating attacks if timed right.
So the general idea here is to provide a variety of defensives matching the weapon type that all have their strengths and weaknesses. Melee's defensive weakness is projectiles, Shield's while strong defensively has a lack of offensive build paths, ranged has the ability to avoid all damage types but requires skill and proper timing to do it, Magic's is physical damage. Each defensive ability can be specced into within the weapon and class tree to enhance them in some way. Certain classes would have higher availability of upgrades and be better suited for specific weapon types, such as Tank with shields, Fighter with dual-wield/2 Handed, and Ranger with bows.
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Comments
because ranged weapons like wands or bows should NOT block at all... they already have the inherit advantage of being ranged... you can attack from a safe distance... no way you gonna be able to active block as well, any defensive skills should be tied to the Tank secondary archetype with spells that give you barriers and all that, nothing else
There are plenty of other games with classes that each have their own defensive abilities, including ranged ones. I've played them and see no problem with it. This is a very narrow minded statement to suggest only tank archetypes should get defensive abilities. I can tell from your comments you are almost certainly a Tank main, thus the blatant bias.
I think when people say parry, they mean a literally parry which isn't a block at all.
That being said I like the idea of different tanking stats for magic vs physical damage, but not necessarily different mechanics.
I don't think thats the kind of parry he meant- don't take this the wrong way, but in terms of the version of parry you are referring to (a traditional timing based parry, separate form standard active block) dismissing a parry mechanic saying that it "overcomplicates" the game is kind of a weak/petty argument. Complexity is good and part of what makes games fun, especially when complex decisions are having to be made in real-time during a fight. Skill itself is just about who is making mistakes and who is not- so its kind of hard to emphasize skill without having complex systems that allow for players to make mistakes to allow skilled players to excel. So, if a person is saying they want less complexity its basically either
1. admitting they can't handle it and don't want better players to actually be able to be better than them- or
2. its that they are too lazy to have to worry about it and want less "game" so that you don't have to put as much effort in order to compete.
The latter is just unnacceptable because it is a game at the end of the day- the former is not neccessarily "a bad take", except that if we are going to cap the amount of skill required to maximize efficiency, then it should take into account the majority of the target players Intrepid is trying to appeal too- of which, seeing as how plenty of casual games have a parry mechanic, then im sure Ashes player base can handle that just fine.
All classes need to be able to engage with the active systems for the most fun combat experience- this includes block. Your reasoning for stripping that away for ranged classes is more of a bandaid than addressing the mian issue that kiting shouldn't be a permanent strategy. If kiting is not a permanent issue, then its just a matter of tuning to balance short and long range classes, at which point that doesn't call for stripping an active combat mechanic away from them. You can have both balance and active combat to have fair and fun fights, doesn't need to be one or the other.
@Ace1234 I agree adding more mechanics to combat is actually a good thing. Games with simple gameplay often get boring very quickly and have a very low skill cap. So far I haven't heard a reasonable argument against having a variety of defensive abilities, and thats because there isn't one. It only adds to the gameplay. Apparently some people don't want that for reasons you listed. If it were up to them, we would have the same copy and pasted combat from 20+ year old MMOs.
Also, dodge described above, sounds like GW2 dodge mechanics, and in the general pvp meta, you are more or less dodgeing offensively and not defensively.
That can't be pulled of with block/parry , thus making those mechanics completely incomparable.
To be completely honest, adding blocking in my opinion is a huge mistake. And once that is established as a finished product feature, and they start baking in additional sub-mechanics to it, it will create more problems than most people expect.
On the other hand, playing as a tank, you still have a rotation, you still have abilities you want to use, combo stuff and have fun...having to meatshield shield up holding block so you don't get instakilled sounds like the most unfun thing in the world.
Unfun to me is your abilities do the work for you. I prefer combat be in the hand of the player rather than a paper doll.
I prefer complexity in the form of the number of different ways and 'correct' decisions you can make with a single, straightforward tool. A tool like this is easy for players to understand how it works, what they got hit by, and how they could use it similarly. But, it also rewards skilled players for proper timing and execution.
However, the method in question sounds like it will raise the skill floor significantly by adding numerous systems that must all be learned in order to PvP effectively.