My theory to balancing AOC

Ludullu

Damn, you've awoken some ancient evil

Dygz

Holy Necro!!
@Nagash

Voxtrium

@Ludullu_(NiKr) ha fr, I actually found my original document for this post while I was doing some writing and it prompted me to go through this post again, couldn't help but enjoy the comments on this one.

@Azherae I was thinking - we talked extensively about CDR being a problem child specifically in MMO combat. This was in relation to the size of players in the area changing the fundamental uses of CDR for the player. My question now 2 years later what is the difference between the CDR changing fundamentally in group play vs just the interaction in AOEs for example. A fixed value for an AOE is flawed if the group size is dynamic because unless its capped to the number of players it can damage an AOE will perform significantly different based on the situation. Similarly CDRs value is almost entirely dependent on the encounter. Finally if you think about damage - in mobas and FPS games we often see damage numbers reach specific critical points when used in combo to reward the player. I expect this carries into MMOs as well albiet perhaps in a reduced form. So if we take that logic and apply it to our abilities, each player character will have stats they can apply to increase dmg among other things. In many cases increasing your damage by that x amount will be almost completely useless outside of the edge cases you catch someone with an odd amount of hp... or in mass PvP / PvE raids

My point being nearly every stat has situations where it is completely useless for players to change so CDR may be a bit extra special in its values but intrinsically it presents the same issues as every other balance application when the situation around the use case is in constant change.

I guess this leads me to believe that technically no MMO can be truly balanced... perhaps nothing can be balanced unless it presents the same use case every time... like a Moba or FPS where the playercount doesn't change.... which even then might not tbh.

Flanker

Haven't read the thread as I don't find it particularly interesting for myself and I can't add anything to this conversation, but hey, from what I see in the first post, it looks like you really spent a lot of time and efforts doing that. That's impressive

Azherae

In my mind when balancing there is a 3D graph.

It has Damage and Healing on the X axis, mana cost vs distance available on the Y axis (more complicated than this actually) and frequency and repetition on the Z axis (what most people call 'player skill' is represented here, but when I'm balancing, I have to balance 'statistically' and that's another long note).

CDR is on the Z axis because it affects the frequency which which a given ability can be used. AoEs on the other hand don't actually count as increasing their damage or their frequency when they hit more targets because you need to hit more targets.

Technically a MOBA has more difficulty balancing its AoE attacks than an MMO.

MOBA AoE is balanced earlier on, by the fact that there is a laning phase, and some other things. And it's still not true in the sense that most people think of it. If you get to endgame against a good Gadget and their teammates work with them well, your only chance of winning is to never clump up unless you know her Ultimate is down. And it will never be down unless she killed a bunch of people with it.

I tried to keep the post short, and ofc it is lacking a lot of nuance as a result.

Predecessor is free. If you care to go deeper, go there.

Dygz

I’m not sure what “truly balanced” is intended to mean.
Ashes is Rock-Paper-Scissors and is not attempting to be “truly balanced”.

Also, Ashes encounters are designed for a 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.

Aszkalon

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Damn, you've awoken some ancient evil

And it is known as this piece of shite Topic " Is there a problem for solo players " made by AirborneBerserker.


I dare to arrogate boldly to say : that is a Topic only Someone can open who knows nothing about the Gameplay until now,

"PLUS" has the Audacity to stretch the own Chin out and cheekily demand the Game to change it's Stance and Ways. Seriously what. a. Shitshow.


If i would have known it would get so much Attention, i would have given my best Shot of making such an obnoxious, stupid Topic as well. (lol)


We all know single (solo) Players will have to look over their Shoulders way more often if not all the time in the World of Verra. Yet here some People make Topics in the Forum as if Design-Choices which are Eight Years old, might or should get changed somewhat - in Case some SOLO. PLAYERS. could be dissatisfied with the Game.


By the Others. The Audacity.

Arya_Yeshe

@Voxtrium, this post has triggered me more than anything I've seen in years across all the forums I’ve participated in!

I’m not a fan of the rock-paper-scissors approach, it’s just boring and fails in the long run. Nothing could be worse than this route. Giving uneven attributes based on levels is the second worst thing a game can do. I'll just skip math part because I don't agree with the chosen path anyway. I'm sorry, but it's not gonna be today that we will agree in this subject

The best approach is to let players build any class into any role and even create their own meme builds to counter specific setups. Let people be creative and do whatever they want with their classes

I’d even give players the option to have fewer skills and spells but allow them to increase the power of the fewer skills they do have. This way, they can create your their specialized builds tailored to their playstyle, and I want to see the most impressive and ourageous builds out there.

Wanna have just half the possible skills for your level? Take a 25% increase in all the skills you have
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

This is big brains design and pog, Ws for everybody!

Pendragxn

- Challenge of Class Balance: Balancing 64 different classes across both PvE and PvP (PvX) content is a key challenge for developers. While class diversity is appealing on paper, there's concern that having so many classes could dilute their depth, complexity, and interactivity.

- Imbalance Issues: With such a wide range of classes, imbalance issues are inevitable, particularly early in the game's lifecycle. These imbalances, while expected, should remain manageable and be addressed through patches and updates during testing phases (Alpha, Beta).

- Purpose of Testing Phases: Alpha and Beta phases serve to identify and correct balance issues. This is a crucial part of the development process to ensure the game feels polished and fair.

- Expectations of Balance: Perfect balance isn’t expected, but balancing so many variables across both PvE and PvP content is a significant task. It would likely require an extensive, synchronized team of experts in testing, reporting, and analysis.

- Concerns About Resources: There’s a concern about whether the development team has sufficient resources and expertise to fine-tune these many classes and ensure a high level of polish in both PvE and PvP interactions.

- Insight into Development: More transparency and insight into how developers plan to manage and execute class balancing would be appreciated. This would reassure players that such a critical aspect of the game is receiving the attention it requires.

- Disagreement with Rock-Paper-Scissors Mechanics: The rock-paper-scissors approach to class balance feels overly simplistic. While the traditional MMO trinity (tank, healer, DPS) is expected, class interactions shouldn’t be too rigid. For instance, just because a player is melee shouldn’t mean they automatically lose to a ranged class like a mage or ranger.

- Other Factors in Play: Balance isn’t just about class types—armor types, status effects, and resistances also need to be considered in creating a dynamic gameplay experience.

- Dynamic Gameplay: To truly innovate, the MMO needs to incorporate dynamic and engaging mechanics, such as:
- Gap Closers for Melee Classes: Abilities that allow melee classes to close the distance to ranged enemies.
- Kiting Abilities for Ranged Classes: Tools for ranged characters to keep melee opponents at bay.
- Defensive Abilities for All Classes: Skills that help mitigate damage and ensure that no class feels overly vulnerable.

- Concern Over Gameplay Complexity: There’s a recurring sentiment that people want the game to resemble older games like Eve Online, but focusing too much on number crunching can make the game feel like playing a spreadsheet, which isn’t appealing for most players.

- Need for Strategy and Tactics: While strategy and tactics are essential elements, a next-generation MMO should also focus on immersive gameplay mechanics and meaningful interactions that go beyond just statistics.

- Avoiding Outdated Mechanics: Claiming to have a hybrid combat system but reverting to outdated gameplay mechanics from years ago isn’t the way forward. Modern MMOs should evolve beyond the frameworks of older games to stay relevant and engaging.

- Appealing to a Diverse Player Base: To attract a wide variety of players—including solo adventurers, group-oriented players, artisans, and adventurers—the game’s vision needs to be expanded. It should cater to different playstyles and backgrounds, providing a broad, dynamic experience that suits all types of players.

Dygz

Not really. Vast majority of the balance comes from the 8 Primary Archetypes; not the 64 Classes.
It's not a Wide Range of Classes - it's still just 8 Primary Archetypes.
The game is balanced for an 8-person Group with one of each Primary Archetype.

Introduction of Classes is more than a year away so if you have a concern about Intrepid not having enough resources to deal with Class balance, you'll have to wait at least a year to see how many resources Intrepid has then.

Ashes is a niche game.
Ashes is not made for everyone.