Clarification: Player Shops Can be Placed ANYWHERE in the World?

Before today, yours truly had thought that only our Freeholds could be placed outside the Node-cities. However, the AoC wiki shows an odd detail about "Placement Certificates":

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_businesses

According to the chart, if you get such a certificate from specifically an Economic Metropolis, then (at least the way I'm reading it) you can put your shop ANYWHERE. By contrast, it shows that you can place your shop on a Freehold if you get such a certificate from a non-Metropolis Node.

Do we need to be online for the shop to *be there* and exist (i.e. if we log off, it disappears), or will it persist, like the details state about the NPC in Player Stalls? And if so, will a vendor/sales NPC persist if we place our shops on a Freehold? If not, why not?

Am very much looking forward to setting up in-game vendors/businesses, like in SWG - just wanting to know how to temper my expectations. For example: If we have a shop that has to be re-placed every time we log, is it a decorate-able building/interior?

Yours truly is of the sentiment that a shop should probably ONLY be in a town - but that it should persist after you log, as well. Won't the present plan leave empty lots in the cities/reserve empty cityscape space?

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Azherae

I believe that I am completely on board with the current design.

If we assume the columns on the 'table' are correct, it is that really, the player themselves is 'the shop' which is what I'm used to.

You access a UI related to the player, they have prices set on items in their inventory, you may buy those items directly out of their inventory.

Player must be online. In fact, to me, this is a 'downgrade' from my FFXI experience where I just put items in my 'personal character Bazaar' and people can buy them off me literally no matter what I'm doing as long as they can see me and I stay in range such that they can /check me, and this is a base feature of any character's existence.

Referring only to the Personal Shops system here, as I can still absolutely see meaningful benefits to Player Stalls. (I would assume that since your own Freehold is a safe zone, it's basically the same as the Bazaar thing if you are online and standing just inside your own 'front gate' for example, once you have the certificate for it.

Tyranthraxus

That's how I'm now understanding it, too, @Azherae . It was a surprise, but thinking back on it, I only assumed there would be shop-shops because of the confectionary skin for the player booths; I'd understood it to be a building skin for a permanent player-structure that would serve as a shop, at the time.

What was throwing me was the part in the tables for PvP states "Players may be killed while occupying their personal shop....", but it would appear that this just refers to where they'll be standing.

Disappointing, but certainly functional. I can only hope we'll have the option for shop-shops, in an expansion. In this case, it looks like yours truly will probably just be using player stalls, for selling wares.

Am wondering how they came to this decision, in the design. Would permanent player shops just take up too much space, perhaps?

Spif

Lineage 2 had this. You basically AFK'd your character in town all night long and people could walk up to you and interact to buy stuff. You could put a chat bubble above your head with a small blurb about what you were selling and price.

It didn't look all that great, people littering the town square with their shops.

Azherae

Maybe we can get better shops on our Freeholds, something inbetween, if we ask for it.

Can't hurt to ask, and the level of 'scope creep' involved would, I figure, be relatively small.

Not sure if that helps your goals at all though @Tyranthraxus

An actual mini-stall set up at whatever location would be interesting, but it WOULD generally just be cosmetic, which, honestly, I figure would make it fine, if people couldn't abuse it to make areas look completely ridiculous. Maybe you need to find some flat ground or something, at least.

Veeshan

Spif wrote: »

Lineage 2 had this. You basically AFK'd your character in town all night long and people could walk up to you and interact to buy stuff. You could put a chat bubble above your head with a small blurb about what you were selling and price.

It didn't look all that great, people littering the town square with their shops.

I would like to see market buildings that can be built via mayors where anyone can set up shop in these market area, would keep the paths clear compared to everyone putting shops in the middle of town in the roads

I would also like to see the ability to log out when u set store up too instead of staying logged in the whole night. So u get store up u have option to log out and when u log in next trader disappears again. or allow u to pay a NPC to sell too as an option if u can afford it or have NPC shops at freehold so u can set pernament shops there while the node stores are offline kinda stores

Atama

A lot of games have had the "go AFK and you are a shop now" mechanic, Lineage 2 wasn't the first. But that's just to say it's a classic and a successful one, so it's not crazy for Ashes to do it too.

Depraved

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

That's how I'm now understanding it, too, @Azherae . It was a surprise, but thinking back on it, I only assumed there would be shop-shops because of the confectionary skin for the player booths; I'd understood it to be a building skin for a permanent player-structure that would serve as a shop, at the time.

What was throwing me was the part in the tables for PvP states "Players may be killed while occupying their personal shop....", but it would appear that this just refers to where they'll be standing.

Disappointing, but certainly functional. I can only hope we'll have the option for shop-shops, in an expansion. In this case, it looks like yours truly will probably just be using player stalls, for selling wares.

Am wondering how they came to this decision, in the design. Would permanent player shops just take up too much space, perhaps?

I think the decision to let players be killed when they set up their shops is to prevent tricking the system in ow pvp. so if someone comes for you, you quickly set up a shop and now you're invincible. well, not anymore

but we don't know if dying will close your shop or if you will still be able to keep selling

Ludullu

Veeshan wrote: »

I would like to see market buildings that can be built via mayors where anyone can set up shop in these market area, would keep the paths clear compared to everyone putting shops in the middle of town in the roads

You couldn't place a shop on L2's city roads.

Here's at 15:40 you can see that the road is clear, while everything else is full with shops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9OkqyCXOuU

Myosotys

I love these old school shops like in Ragnarok Online or L2 ! This makes the economy more lively.
These Auction House are killing the economy as you get an instant analysis of prices and it push players to sell cheaper and cheaper.

Just make sure to reserve specific locations for the Shops.

Arya_Yeshe

@Tyranthraxus from what I understand, after acquiring the certificate you can place the player shop in your freehold, regardless where the freehold is

So the Metropolis could be many nodes away from your freehold, you will have to travel there and go back to your freehold and set your shop and the npc, both are persistent and will be there even if you are offline, they won't be attacked by anyone since they will be inside the freehold area

What players can have in town is the player stall within the town market

The player shop in the freehold is quite great, since you can use that as a local warehouse for your guild, so in a region where many people from the same guild have freeholds they can all set their shops there and easily trade stuff they need even if you are offline... this will also help your neighbours and people who farm around your freehold

Noaani

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Tyranthraxus from what I understand, after acquiring the certificate you can place the player shop in your freehold, regardless where the freehold is

If you buy a certificate from a regular node, this is the case. Such a certificate allows you to place your shop either near your nodes unique building (which becomes available at the village stage), or in your freehold.

It is specifically stated that on top of this, if you buy your certificate from an economic metropolis, you can place your stall anywhere.

@Tyranthraxus

A few points I think are worth considering here.

First of all, in order to be able to place your shop anywhere, an economic metropolis needs to exist on your server. It is unclear whether you need to be a citizen of it in order to purchase a certificate, but it is clear that one needs to exist.

Second, if you use this method to sell items/resources, they are not listed anywhere. The only way players will know what you are selling is if they come up to your store and actually look.

The third thing to consider is that when using this kind of thing (personal shop as opposed to player stall), you need to be present on your character - you can't hire an NPC.

The fourth thing to consider is that with personal shops, you are subject to PvP. Rather than buying raw materials you may be selling, a player could just kill you and take what you drop.

As such, I think it is safe to assume that personal shops out in the wild will be rare - if I saw one, I would personally assume it was bait for a trap of some sort.

Due to both the fact that you would be open to PvP, and the fact that your products are not listed anywhere, players using personal shops are probably going to limit themselves to being in a town or on their freehold (with perhaps word of mount advertising).

Going by the table in the wiki article, I actually don't see any particularly good means of setting up a permanent shop for players.

Player stalls are temporary, but the items may well be listed for easy browsing. They are also only available in economic nodes.

Setting up a personal shop (which includes shops being placed anywhere in the world as we are discussing, as well as shops set up in a mode, and also freehold shops) are not listed for easy browsing anywhere. The only benefit to personal shops is that they are your only option if you are not in an economic node.

This just leaves auction house selling, which doesn't seem to allow for players to have their own physical shop presence anywhere. This is also limited to economic nodes.

All up, I am actually quite disappointed with what options are currently envisioned.

Nerror

I definitely don't want to see players being able to set up shop anywhere they want and just go afk. But the placement part is mostly a visual and aesthetic thing.

What I am really dead-set against is any system that substantially rewards players who leave their PC running while at work or sleeping, just to keep a shop running or AFK fishing or life-skilling like I saw in BDO. For several reasons really:

1. There is the environmental impact. Hundreds of thousands of gaming PCs (assuming the game is really successful) pulling 200W+ with the game minimized, running the game 24/7 instead of 8/7, adds up. Extra fossil fuels will be burnt with such a system. No it's not even close to what crypto-mining levels used to be obviously, but it's still environmentally hostile. Any and all proposed shop-systems should be possible with the PC turned off simply for that reason alone.

2. There is the personal economic impact on players. This creates an uneven playing field. Energy prices are high in general in the EU, including Denmark where I live. On a cheap day, 1 kWh is around US$0.40. On a bad day it's quite a bit higher, but let's napkin math a cheap day. Let's assume the game can run in the background while minimized. A gaming PC can still easily pull 200W from the wall when on and with a game running in the background, so for the sake of this argument, that is the number I am going with:
Assuming 15 hours extra time keeping the PC on to be AFK in the game, we're looking at an extra 15 x 0.2 kWh = 3 kWh per day, resulting in an extra $1.2/day or $36 per month. Not a lot on the face of it, but it's still more than double the subscription.
That's a best case scenario. During high energy cost periods we can almost double that electricity bill number. If the game can't be run minimized in the background, we're easily doubling that number again, to where an AFK system can cost players (well, those who actually pay for their own electricity) around $150 extra a month if they want to keep up with any real or perceived competition.
There is also extra wear and tear on the PC obviously, but that is really hard to quantify I think.

3. It's just bad game design IMO. This is just a personal preference, but if I see a player in the game, I want that player to actually be there most of the time. Not just some afk zombie taking up space in the game world. It really detracts from my enjoyment and goes against the whole point of playing an MMORPG. Oh and we have the whole login-queue/server full issue too obviously.

Electronn

Myosotys

Nerror wrote: »

I definitely don't want to see players being able to set up shop anywhere they want and just go afk. But the placement part is mostly a visual and aesthetic thing.

What I am really dead-set against is any system that substantially rewards players who leave their PC running while at work or sleeping, just to keep a shop running or AFK fishing or life-skilling like I saw in BDO. For several reasons really:

1. There is the environmental impact. Hundreds of thousands of gaming PCs (assuming the game is really successful) pulling 200W+ with the game minimized, running the game 24/7 instead of 8/7, adds up. Extra fossil fuels will be burnt with such a system. No it's not even close to what crypto-mining levels used to be obviously, but it's still environmentally hostile. Any and all proposed shop-systems should be possible with the PC turned off simply for that reason alone.

2. There is the personal economic impact on players. This creates an uneven playing field. Energy prices are high in general in the EU, including Denmark where I live. On a cheap day, 1 kWh is around US$0.40. On a bad day it's quite a bit higher, but let's napkin math a cheap day. Let's assume the game can run in the background while minimized. A gaming PC can still easily pull 200W from the wall when on and with a game running in the background, so for the sake of this argument, that is the number I am going with:
Assuming 15 hours extra time keeping the PC on to be AFK in the game, we're looking at an extra 15 x 0.2 kWh = 3 kWh per day, resulting in an extra $1.2/day or $36 per month. Not a lot on the face of it, but it's still more than double the subscription.
That's a best case scenario. During high energy cost periods we can almost double that electricity bill number. If the game can't be run minimized in the background, we're easily doubling that number again, to where an AFK system can cost players (well, those who actually pay for their own electricity) around $150 extra a month if they want to keep up with any real or perceived competition.
There is also extra wear and tear on the PC obviously, but that is really hard to quantify I think.

3. It's just bad game design IMO. This is just a personal preference, but if I see a player in the game, I want that player to actually be there most of the time. Not just some afk zombie taking up space in the game world. It really detracts from my enjoyment and goes against the whole point of playing an MMORPG. Oh and we have the whole login-queue/server full issue too obviously.

You worry about nothing... It seems obvious that in 2022 (soon 2023), it is possible to code the game to unpack your shop and then disconnect.

In addition to the environmental and financial impact, there is the impact on the processor and graphics card. I won't run Unreal 5 24 hours a day... Poor PC.

In short, staying AFK to sell items seems completely unrealistic.

Tyranthraxus

Noaani wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Tyranthraxus from what I understand, after acquiring the certificate you can place the player shop in your freehold, regardless where the freehold is

If you buy a certificate from a regular node, this is the case. Such a certificate allows you to place your shop either near your nodes unique building (which becomes available at the village stage), or in your freehold.

It is specifically stated that on top of this, if you buy your certificate from an economic metropolis, you can place your stall anywhere.

@Tyranthraxus

A few points I think are worth considering here.

First of all, in order to be able to place your shop anywhere, an economic metropolis needs to exist on your server. It is unclear whether you need to be a citizen of it in order to purchase a certificate, but it is clear that one needs to exist.

Second, if you use this method to sell items/resources, they are not listed anywhere. The only way players will know what you are selling is if they come up to your store and actually look.

The third thing to consider is that when using this kind of thing (personal shop as opposed to player stall), you need to be present on your character - you can't hire an NPC.

The fourth thing to consider is that with personal shops, you are subject to PvP. Rather than buying raw materials you may be selling, a player could just kill you and take what you drop.

As such, I think it is safe to assume that personal shops out in the wild will be rare - if I saw one, I would personally assume it was bait for a trap of some sort.

Due to both the fact that you would be open to PvP, and the fact that your products are not listed anywhere, players using personal shops are probably going to limit themselves to being in a town or on their freehold (with perhaps word of mount advertising).

Going by the table in the wiki article, I actually don't see any particularly good means of setting up a permanent shop for players.

Player stalls are temporary, but the items may well be listed for easy browsing. They are also only available in economic nodes.

Setting up a personal shop (which includes shops being placed anywhere in the world as we are discussing, as well as shops set up in a mode, and also freehold shops) are not listed for easy browsing anywhere. The only benefit to personal shops is that they are your only option if you are not in an economic node.

This just leaves auction house selling, which doesn't seem to allow for players to have their own physical shop presence anywhere. This is also limited to economic nodes.

All up, I am actually quite disappointed with what options are currently envisioned.

It does seem a bit dumbed-down, versus other game-mediums. Even to this day, I run a shop in Star Wars Galaxies: Legends. Part of the appeal? Getting people to travel to your part of the galaxy, to view wares in a shop that you - personally - built/arranged; It's a chance to offer something to visitors that no other player has specifically seen, before.

It won't stop me from enjoying running a shop in AoC - though it will certainly subtract, from it. Every game has it's charms - as well as its draw-backs. Have always been pro-AoC and this is unlikely to change; I just wish we had more in-depth options for setting up shops, at launch.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Tyranthraxus from what I understand, after acquiring the certificate you can place the player shop in your freehold, regardless where the freehold is

If you buy a certificate from a regular node, this is the case. Such a certificate allows you to place your shop either near your nodes unique building (which becomes available at the village stage), or in your freehold.

It is specifically stated that on top of this, if you buy your certificate from an economic metropolis, you can place your stall anywhere.

@Tyranthraxus

A few points I think are worth considering here.

First of all, in order to be able to place your shop anywhere, an economic metropolis needs to exist on your server. It is unclear whether you need to be a citizen of it in order to purchase a certificate, but it is clear that one needs to exist.

Second, if you use this method to sell items/resources, they are not listed anywhere. The only way players will know what you are selling is if they come up to your store and actually look.

The third thing to consider is that when using this kind of thing (personal shop as opposed to player stall), you need to be present on your character - you can't hire an NPC.

The fourth thing to consider is that with personal shops, you are subject to PvP. Rather than buying raw materials you may be selling, a player could just kill you and take what you drop.

As such, I think it is safe to assume that personal shops out in the wild will be rare - if I saw one, I would personally assume it was bait for a trap of some sort.

Due to both the fact that you would be open to PvP, and the fact that your products are not listed anywhere, players using personal shops are probably going to limit themselves to being in a town or on their freehold (with perhaps word of mount advertising).

Going by the table in the wiki article, I actually don't see any particularly good means of setting up a permanent shop for players.

Player stalls are temporary, but the items may well be listed for easy browsing. They are also only available in economic nodes.

Setting up a personal shop (which includes shops being placed anywhere in the world as we are discussing, as well as shops set up in a mode, and also freehold shops) are not listed for easy browsing anywhere. The only benefit to personal shops is that they are your only option if you are not in an economic node.

This just leaves auction house selling, which doesn't seem to allow for players to have their own physical shop presence anywhere. This is also limited to economic nodes.

All up, I am actually quite disappointed with what options are currently envisioned.

this is like ragnarok and l2 back then, and its much better than auction houses, because people arent constantly undercutting each other, then bulk buying, etc.

yes, its more time consuming to browse the stores, but it allows you to sell easier without having to undercut everybody, because people don't have access to the full list of items and prices and but there are also more opportunities to make more money.

people in to and l2 would set up shop in the most popular cities, and there would be a lot of competition for the best selling spots. you can also set your shop near quest npc offering their quest items or near farming areas selling consumables, and people buy them to avoid the trip back to town.

Nerror

Myosotys wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

I definitely don't want to see players being able to set up shop anywhere they want and just go afk. But the placement part is mostly a visual and aesthetic thing.

What I am really dead-set against is any system that substantially rewards players who leave their PC running while at work or sleeping, just to keep a shop running or AFK fishing or life-skilling like I saw in BDO. For several reasons really:

1. There is the environmental impact. Hundreds of thousands of gaming PCs (assuming the game is really successful) pulling 200W+ with the game minimized, running the game 24/7 instead of 8/7, adds up. Extra fossil fuels will be burnt with such a system. No it's not even close to what crypto-mining levels used to be obviously, but it's still environmentally hostile. Any and all proposed shop-systems should be possible with the PC turned off simply for that reason alone.

2. There is the personal economic impact on players. This creates an uneven playing field. Energy prices are high in general in the EU, including Denmark where I live. On a cheap day, 1 kWh is around US$0.40. On a bad day it's quite a bit higher, but let's napkin math a cheap day. Let's assume the game can run in the background while minimized. A gaming PC can still easily pull 200W from the wall when on and with a game running in the background, so for the sake of this argument, that is the number I am going with:
Assuming 15 hours extra time keeping the PC on to be AFK in the game, we're looking at an extra 15 x 0.2 kWh = 3 kWh per day, resulting in an extra $1.2/day or $36 per month. Not a lot on the face of it, but it's still more than double the subscription.
That's a best case scenario. During high energy cost periods we can almost double that electricity bill number. If the game can't be run minimized in the background, we're easily doubling that number again, to where an AFK system can cost players (well, those who actually pay for their own electricity) around $150 extra a month if they want to keep up with any real or perceived competition.
There is also extra wear and tear on the PC obviously, but that is really hard to quantify I think.

3. It's just bad game design IMO. This is just a personal preference, but if I see a player in the game, I want that player to actually be there most of the time. Not just some afk zombie taking up space in the game world. It really detracts from my enjoyment and goes against the whole point of playing an MMORPG. Oh and we have the whole login-queue/server full issue too obviously.

You worry about nothing... It seems obvious that in 2022 (soon 2023), it is possible to code the game to unpack your shop and then disconnect.

In addition to the environmental and financial impact, there is the impact on the processor and graphics card. I won't run Unreal 5 24 hours a day... Poor PC.

In short, staying AFK to sell items seems completely unrealistic.

Oh it's not the technology or coding ability I question, I worry Intrepid thinks this is one of the cool aspects of the old games like L2 and AA, and want to do the same in Ashes.

tautau

I interpreted it to mean that a shop on a freehold was safe, could not be attacked there. But a shop that was not in a safe zone could leave the vendor open to getting PKed, so I would expect not to see shops out in the country.

However, if there was a major raid going on and you were a crafter of potions, you might want to drop your shop by the raid so players could restock as needed during the fighting, with prices probably 2x what they would be in town...very profitable.

I really loved how shops worked in L2. It felt like being in a real market, browsing for bargains and rare items, all the time keeping a hand on your wallet to not get ripped off by various types of scammers.

novercalis

AFK selling shouldnt be allowed.

We have a server cap of online players vs registered player.
Allowing players not to logout and go afk, will create massive queues and lock other players from logging in.

I'd rather see, personal shop afk lasting for 15 min before auto logging you out.
The shop still remain to sell.

Now hot take - personally I dont think 24/7 shop should be allowed either.
So perhaps a time limit - your shop closes down after an hour of being logged out or after an hour of no sale.

unknownsystemerror

As always, the wiki is a great source to peruse before discussions of "I want this..." or "I think it should be this way..." as it lets you know Intrepid's last stated plans for those mechanics.

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